Fish dying - Symptoms of Ammonia Prisoning?

[rkeane]

Hi all,

I have 6 discus in my 50 gallon tank started 5 weeks ago. They all live healthy until recently. 5 days ago I found them all laying at the bottom, color fading, eyes turning white. I immediately changed 50% of water and they became alive again.

Then 2 days ago, I fed them in the evening and in the midnight they have the same symptoms again. I again did my water change of 20-30%, they became better again.

Yesterday I didn't feed them the whole day, in the evening I did a water change of 25%, again in the midnight they looked like they are dying again!!! I again did my water change of 20-30%, they became better again.

--
I checked my water parameters with API test kit.
Nitrate - 0
Nitrite - 0
Ammonia 0-0.25 ppm (I would say the color is close to 0)
PH - 7.5

--
Any idea what happened??? I am so confused!

[AquaticNerd]

Zero nitrate is very concerning. In a cycled aquarium, there should always be some detectable level of nitrate (barring heavily planted aquariums).

What was your process for cycling the aquarium? How about water change process? Do you age your water? What kind of conditioner do you use?

[Iminit]

What are you filtering with? What are you feeding?

[rkeane]

Zero nitrate is very concerning. In a cycled aquarium, there should always be some detectable level of nitrate (barring heavily planted aquariums).

What was your process for cycling the aquarium? How about water change process? Do you age your water? What kind of conditioner do you use?

Hi, I started my tank by adding 5 capful of Seachem Stablity each day for 1 week. Then I added the fish. Water change was 3 days per 25%. The water was aged at least for 1 day with added Prime.

Now the situation is worse -- after I changed water, they are good. Then 13-15 hours later they became sick (the periphery of the eyes turned white from red, and they tend to lay on the bottom). After water change, they are good again. What is the possible problem?

[rkeane]

It is Aqua Clear 70. And fed with dry pallets and iced blood worm. Their poo is healthy,

[Megalodon]

Low oxygen?

Oxygen levels go down after feeding.

Water change water has high oxygen levels even if stagnant.

[Iminit]

Water change daily add a air stone could be loss of oxygen. How often do you clean the filter? How big are the discus? Something is changing the water quality. Test the before water change water.

[rkeane]

I believe air supply is good - they are good before, but only have problem these few days.

[rkeane]

Would it be some kind of bacteria or disease? I did introduce two plecos, after that they have such symptoms.

[rkeane]

Cause nitrate, nitrite, ammnoia all close to zero, shouldn't be poisoning?

They are 6 small discus, 3" to 4".

[rkeane]

The thing is, even I changed 50% of aged water, the fish become sick again after 14-15 hours. More percentage waterchange just delays their sickness happening, but the sickness comes back!
I suspect really there's some kind of bacteria growing in my tank very quickly. What could it be?

[fljones3]

Are you adding the Prime to the aging container or the tank when you change the water? Prime is about a 2 day effectiveness. If you are adding it to the aging container, you have about 1 day effectiveness afterwards. Also, if it were mine, I would add another sponge filter to the system. I don’t think that the tank is cycled for whatever reason.

I would add another sponge filter (which would add O2) and change 30% of the water daily. Smaller fish need more not less WC. Monitor until you get a nitrate reading. Keep your nitrate reading under 10. See how that proceeds.

[Second Hand Pat]

How are you aging your water. Do you add an air stone to the aging bin?
Pat

[AquaticNerd]

Hi, I started my tank by adding 5 capful of Seachem Stablity each day for 1 week. Then I added the fish. Water change was 3 days per 25%. The water was aged at least for 1 day with added Prime.

Now the situation is worse -- after I changed water, they are good. Then 13-15 hours later they became sick (the periphery of the eyes turned white from red, and they tend to lay on the bottom). After water change, they are good again. What is the possible problem?

.....

The thing is, even I changed 50% of aged water, the fish become sick again after 14-15 hours. More percentage waterchange just delays their sickness happening, but the sickness comes back!
I suspect really there's some kind of bacteria growing in my tank very quickly. What could it be?
I have never encountered a bottled bacteria solution that instantly cycled an aquarium. Likewise, the beneficial bacteria that do grow in an aquarium require a food source - ammonia. Since you mentioned that you only added Stability and nothing else, I'm afraid you didn't cycle your aquarium and the Stability was just wasted. I would recommend reading about the Nitrogen cycle (http://injaf.org/articles-guides/beginners-guides/the-nitrogen-cycle-and-the-fishless-cycle-getting-your-aquarium-ready-for-fish/) to get an understanding of what occurs in your aquarium during the cycle. There are a lot of things I can assume that are happening. Since you mentioned a little later that all readings are "close to zero", that's not zero. Are you able to test for Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate and take a picture of the three next to your API test results card for us to see? Ideally, this reading should occur while the fish are exhibiting the symptoms and right before the water is changed. It's still concerning if you're seeing 0 Nitrate, because the presence of Nitrate indicates a full cycle. My instincts tell me their behavior changes after a water change because they've been alleviated from spikes in harmful levels of Ammonia and/or Nitrite. After a period of time they start acting strange again because those levels rise throughout the day after the water change.

For starters, I would follow up with and concur with Frank's advice - increase the amount of water you are changing and how often. I would even go so far as to say you should start with changing 50% of the water every day. I would also begin dosing Prime using the "in emergency" instructions - To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose may be used. To do this, you would change your water using the standard dosing for prime (1 capful per 50G, so up to the third thread if you're changing 50% water daily). After the water change, I would go with dosing 3-4 more capfuls. If my instincts are correct about ammonia and nitrite spikes causing this behavior, Prime will at least neutralize it and make the water safe for fish.


Would it be some kind of bacteria or disease? I did introduce two plecos, after that they have such symptoms.
It's quite possible that you introduced some disease or bug along with the plecos. I would suggest taking a look at http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/general_info/quarantine_procedures.shtml for how to handle the standard quarantine procedures.

[dspeers]

A few observations/questions:
1. An infectious etiology (bacterial, viral, parasite) is extremely unlikely as none of those would exhibit such an immediate recovery after water change only to recur less than 24 hours later. Very much doubt the pleco's have any role in this.
2. Just FYI you reach steady state in terms of contaminants after ~ 20 water changes if changing 25%, not sure how that correlates with the development of symptoms. It is highly unlikely that the tank was cycled when you first introduced the fish, but 5 weeks later should be. Adding stability without a nitrogen source does very little. What is concerning is that the only positive you got was ammonia, and zero nitrates. That strongly argues for a non-cycled tank, or a faulty test. Did you test your water when the fish were exhibiting their symptoms. You might want to repeat the test a couple of times and see what you get.
3. What is loaded in your aquaclear, and how are you cleaning that filter? What if any substrate is in the tank?
4. Kinda doubt that you are having O2 issues but adding a sponge filter to provide substrate for nitrifying bacteria is a good thing especially if you have a bare bottom tank. Also redness usually indicates inflammation, and is not seen when an animal is hypoxic.
5. The fact that you have had no problems for 5 weeks, then fairly frequent recurrent problems is concerning in that one explanation might be your air quality. Are you having any symptoms? One thing that comes to mind is low level carbon monoxide. Do you have any natural gas or fuel oil appliances? What fuel does your heating unit use? Are you having daily headaches, dizziness, nausea? Do you have a CO detector and if so how old is it?

[jeep]

Laying on the bottom is a symptom of chloramines but if you're using Prime then that shouldn't be the issue. I would re-test your water and shake the liquids up real good and then shake them again. I suspect a cycle issue and your ammonia may be spiking...

[dspeers]

Always fun when you start a response, get distracted with another issue and then hit send before seeing what else was said. Fully concur with Jake and using prime until you have determined if ammonia and nitrite are the issue. Also agree that this is the most likely scenario for what you are seeing. Neglected to state that and meant to. # 5 above is very low probability but also very high risk especially to you which is why I mentioned. This would be the "canary in a coal mine" scenario.

[rkeane]

Thank you Jake so much for the long reply. The below pictures were taken from the first time they have symptoms (6 days ago). Since then I didn't feed them any food but they have that symptoms again and again which only WC helped alleviate it.

I only took pictures of the Ammonia, didn't take picture of other parameters cause they are 0.

They have symptoms and before WC:
129865
After WC:
129866
4 hours after WC:
129867

When I started the tank and do WC, I added Prime + Stability as instructed.

[rkeane]

Laying on the bottom is a symptom of chloramines but if you're using Prime then that shouldn't be the issue. I would re-test your water and shake the liquids up real good and then shake them again. I suspect a cycle issue and your ammonia may be spiking...


But how come that ammonia spike didn't happen until a few days ago? A few days ago until today - it has been 5 days I didn't feed them any food, it shouldn't produce any more ammonia? But the symptoms keep coming back... that's why I didn't think it was ammonia

[rkeane]

A few observations/questions:
1. An infectious etiology (bacterial, viral, parasite) is extremely unlikely as none of those would exhibit such an immediate recovery after water change only to recur less than 24 hours later. Very much doubt the pleco's have any role in this.
2. Just FYI you reach steady state in terms of contaminants after ~ 20 water changes if changing 25%, ....

- The two plecos were introduced right before the fish became sick, that's why I relate them...
- Ammonia could be the reason, see my pictures above... but just don't know why these fish fell sick all of a sudden?
- In my Aquaclear 70, I use the original material it gives me - one sponge, one carbon, and the bio media
- I am using air stone, O2 is supplied. My tank has sands as bottom.
- CO shouldn't be a problem, I live in a new house CO detector is new, thanks for asking! :)

[Iminit]

Ok this all began when the plecos were added. Aquaclear70 on a 50 gal with 6 3-4” discus and 2 plecos. Plecos are waste machines. So it’s either an ammonia spike because the cycle is trying to keep up with the ammonia or theres not enough oxygen. First I’d add another filter. Take ammonia readings as soon as fish start acting up. The fact that it’s taking 13 hrs to start bothering them is water related. 6discus in a 50g with the plecos is the problem. Not enough filtration. With water changes it’s a fish in cycle.

[fljones3]

As Tom said, plecos are waste machines. How do you clean your AC70? When was the last time the carbon was replaced (btw, I don't think you need the carbon, just add more sponge or bio-media). I would still add a sponge filter. They are cheap insurance. You already have the air. Then, when you can alternate cleaning each one.

[Iminit]

129868 I use these filters. They are 2 sponges on a power head that moves 250gph. Gives you the sponges and lots of water movement. Odyssey 250 about $15 on eBay shipped.

[rkeane]

As Tom said, plecos are waste machines. How do you clean your AC70? When was the last time the carbon was replaced (btw, I don't think you need the carbon, just add more sponge or bio-media). I would still add a sponge filter. They are cheap insurance. You already have the air. Then, when you can alternate cleaning each one.

Like 2 weeks ago, I cleaned the sponge, carbon (now taken off) with tank water, did not clean the bio media.



This is my setup. I might be not clear about my fish size - 4 are relatively small, 2 are bigger, and the plecos are just tiny - they hide behind the sponge filter you can't even find them.

With all that said, I believe the O2 level and filter capacity is sufficient? In the filter, I took out the carbon and added a sponge - now two sponge and a bag of bio media.

If that was ammonia spike problem, what is the best approach to grow the good bacteria in my tank? Thank you guys in advance.

129870

[Iminit]

Just keep changing the water daily. It’s now just a fish in cycle. You test and change water as needed. Are the discus still dropping to the bottom? Nice looking tank and discus. Also the tank is not overloaded though I would still upgrade from the 70 to a 110. Is the sponge new? Oh and the glow tetras will work with discus.

[rkeane]

Just keep changing the water daily. It’s now just a fish in cycle. You test and change water as needed. Are the discus still dropping to the bottom? Nice looking tank and discus. Also the tank is not overloaded though I would still upgrade from the 70 to a 110. Is the sponge new? Oh and the glow tetras will work with discus.

They are acting well now, probably they are starving and no poo or pee in the tank to cause ammonia.

My plan is to keep feeding minimal to zero so that the ammonia level is low. Does adding Stability daily help growing the good bacteria?

I kept those glow tetras in that box because they were eating too much because discus eat too slow...

[Megalodon]

Stability is heterotrophic bacteria which will compete with true nitrifying bacteria. You don't want it in your tank.

Aeration vs. stocking level looks good but I would move the air stones as low as possible so they're more effective. They might kick up the sand so you may already have them as low as possible.

Do you know if you have hard or soft water? Does pH decline over time? Alkalinity is another thing that's restored with water changes assuming you have soft water.

[rkeane]

Stability is heterotrophic bacteria which will compete with true nitrifying bacteria. You don't want it in your tank.

Aeration vs. stocking level looks good but I would move the air stones as low as possible so they're more effective. They might kick up the sand so you may already have them as low as possible.

Do you know if you have hard or soft water? Does pH decline over time? Alkalinity is another thing that's restored with water changes assuming you have soft water.

I have a water softener in my house. I tested the pH it's about 7.5, It doesn't seem to decline over time.

Stability is not good? The fish store owner told me to add it whenever I do WC

[rkeane]

Is 0.25 ppm ammonia considered toxic?

[rkeane]

I am still concerned about why tested 0.25 ppm ammonia could cause my fish became color-fading, eyes periphery turned white and standing at the bottom of the tank. ?

[Megalodon]

I have a water softener in my house. I tested the pH it's about 7.5, It doesn't seem to decline over time.

Stability is not good? The fish store owner told me to add it whenever I do WC

Stability is garbage.


Is 0.25 ppm ammonia considered toxic?

At pH 7.5, it's not particularly toxic.

Try bypassing the water softener. They can really mess up your water chemistry for fish. Sodium and chloride levels probably need to be balanced and fish need some calcium, magnesium, and bicarbonate.

[rkeane]

Stability is garbage.



At pH 7.5, it's not particularly toxic.

Try bypassing the water softener. They can really mess up your water chemistry for fish. Sodium and chloride levels probably need to be balanced and fish need some calcium, magnesium, and bicarbonate.


I mean if that was the softener's fault, would it have given me sick fish at the beginning? The sickness happened just recently and keep happening repeatedly if water not changed 10-15 hours. I am convinced it is water problem - but don't know if 0.25 ammonia level could harm them so badly.

BTW, the 2 bigger fish have no symptoms but the 4 small ones do.


What product do you use to help grow nitrifying bacteria in the tank if not Stability?

[pablos]

What product do you use to help grow nitrifying bacteria in the tank if not Stability?

Time?

[AquaticNerd]

I mean if that was the softener's fault, would it have given me sick fish at the beginning? The sickness happened just recently and keep happening repeatedly if water not changed 10-15 hours. I am convinced it is water problem - but don't know if 0.25 ammonia level could harm them so badly.

BTW, the 2 bigger fish have no symptoms but the 4 small ones do.


What product do you use to help grow nitrifying bacteria in the tank if not Stability?

A proper, fully-cycled, aquarium needs no additional supplements to build the nitrifying bacteria - there is already a healthy population. The issue here is that a cycle can take anywhere from 4-8 weeks to fully develop, and since you've only started this aquarium 5 weeks ago, are probably still in the thick of your cycle to begin with. The reason why your small fish are behaving differently than your larger ones is because they are more sensitive to water quality issues.

[Megalodon]

I mean if that was the softener's fault, would it have given me sick fish at the beginning? The sickness happened just recently and keep happening repeatedly if water not changed 10-15 hours. I am convinced it is water problem - but don't know if 0.25 ammonia level could harm them so badly.

BTW, the 2 bigger fish have no symptoms but the 4 small ones do.

What product do you use to help grow nitrifying bacteria in the tank if not Stability?

Tap water isn't constant nor is the performance of a water softener. I would try different water and see what happens.

I would never use softened water with fish.

Tetra Safe Start, ATM Colony, and Fritz sell true nitrifying bacteria.

[rkeane]

Tap water isn't constant nor is the performance of a water softener. I would try different water and see what happens.

I would never use softened water with fish.

Tetra Safe Start, ATM Colony, and Fritz sell true nitrifying bacteria.


Thank you. Bought a bottle of Tetra Safe Start. See how it goes.

[rkeane]

A proper, fully-cycled, aquarium needs no additional supplements to build the nitrifying bacteria - there is already a healthy population. The issue here is that a cycle can take anywhere from 4-8 weeks to fully develop, and since you've only started this aquarium 5 weeks ago, are probably still in the thick of your cycle to begin with. The reason why your small fish are behaving differently than your larger ones is because they are more sensitive to water quality issues.

I see. i added a bottle of Tetra Safe Start, and will actively test the water along the way, if the ammonia is high then I will do some water change. I hope the nitrifying bacteria grow fast :)

[jeep]

To add to the rest of the great advice you've received, you are also in the middle of one of the worst times of the year for municipal water supplies. The change in seasons can turn a barely noticeable issue into a major one. I would also try not to use softened water for my discus. Is there a way to bypass?

[rkeane]

To add to the rest of the great advice you've received, you are also in the middle of one of the worst times of the year for municipal water supplies. The change in seasons can turn a barely noticeable issue into a major one. I would also try not to use softened water for my discus. Is there a way to bypass?

What issue could it be? And what are the drawbacks of softened water? Meanwhile I am researching how to add a bypass line before my water softener...

[jeep]

During the change of seasons, water can be very turbid and water companies can make adjustments daily to compensate. Last year there was about 3 days over a month that ammonia, nitrite and nitrates were off the charts in my area. Aquarium hobbyists in my city were reporting some serious issues. I'm not sure how these swings would react while passing through a softener.

Water softeners only exchange mineral content for sodium content, unless you use potassium. I don't have experience with them but I know others who do and they have reported issues over time that they claim is related to a lack of minerals in the water or a higher sodium content. Everyone I know who has a softener has installed a bypass so they can have access to their regular tap water supply. They either tie in right before the softener or from a section of their water lines that feed the outside spigots because they don't usually run through the softener.

[elusive77]

One thing I might mention, just because I've experienced this before, is that it is really hard to tell the difference between 0.25 ppm and 0 ppm just by looking at the color chart with those tests. IME it never looks fully yellow like the picture even when it is at 0 ppm. When I first started using the tests, I agonized over why I was still getting small amounts of Ammonia in a tank that should have long been cycled. I finally ran the test on distilled water, which will obviously have 0 ppm Ammonia, and compared it to the test on my tank water. They looked exactly the same. It's a good way to know for sure if it's 0 or more than zero. You will be able to see a slight difference if it's anything other than zero.

[Megalodon]

I've found that distilled water can absorb ammonia from the air if the bottle has been previously opened.

[rkeane]

One thing I might mention, just because I've experienced this before, is that it is really hard to tell the difference between 0.25 ppm and 0 ppm just by looking at the color chart with those tests. IME it never looks fully yellow like the picture even when it is at 0 ppm. When I first started using the tests, I agonized over why I was still getting small amounts of Ammonia in a tank that should have long been cycled. I finally ran the test on distilled water, which will obviously have 0 ppm Ammonia, and compared it to the test on my tank water. They looked exactly the same. It's a good way to know for sure if it's 0 or more than zero. You will be able to see a slight difference if it's anything other than zero.

I see. You mean using distilled water as a baseline so I can find out if that is an actual zero ammonia.

[rkeane]

A quick update:

Since I started my tank on Nov.5, My ammonia, nitrite and nitrate value were 0 or close 0 all the time.

Dec.17, I decided to add a whole bottle of Tetra Safestart into my tank (50 gal), I can notice the immediate effect of it - the water became crystal clear. I followed the instructions online - they said keep feeding my fish every other day lightly, and keep testing the values every day.

Dec.18, readings:
Ammonia - close to 0-0.25 ppm
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - close 5 ppm

Dec.22, readings:
Ammonia - close to 0-0.25 ppm
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - close 10 ppm

The noticeable thing is that my Nitrate has gone up. But still I didn't detect any ammonia or nitrite spike.

Some questions, thank you guys for your patience to answer me :)
- Is it normal after using Tetra Safestart?
- What value of nitrate would be dangerous to discus?
- How do I know if my tank is actually cycled?

[Iminit]

1)I’ve never used tetra safe start but many do.
2)This to me is debatable. I’ve never bought into the nitrate chasing thing. Never test for it. Thing with discus is you need to change water. The more often the better. So both my discus tanks will have next to nothing in nitrates. My community tank gets a 50% water change weekly so it also never needs to be checked. Nitrate checking is usually done by those who don’t like changing water.
3)A tank is cycled when the ammonia has gone to zero and nitrites have shown and are now also at zero. Next is nitrates are developed. Nitrates will rise in numbers as water changes are ignored. So with your readings your cycle is working. Your nitrates are going up. When did you change water last. Most here will say to change water at 10ppm nitrates.

[rkeane]

1)I’ve never used tetra safe start but many do.
2)This to me is debatable. I’ve never bought into the nitrate chasing thing. Never test for it. Thing with discus is you need to change water. The more often the better. So both my discus tanks will have next to nothing in nitrates. My community tank gets a 50% water change weekly so it also never needs to be checked. Nitrate checking is usually done by those who don’t like changing water.
3)A tank is cycled when the ammonia has gone to zero and nitrites have shown and are now also at zero. Next is nitrates are developed. Nitrates will rise in numbers as water changes are ignored. So with your readings your cycle is working. Your nitrates are going up. When did you change water last. Most here will say to change water at 10ppm nitrates.

Thanks Tom, I read articles where people specifically use Tetra Safestart to start a new tank. Using this product they do not recommend to do WC in the first 10-14 days. During the process, they will witness Ammonia spike, then Nitrite spike, and eventually these two come to 0 with only Nitrate.

My situation may be a bit different, I started the tank 6 weeks ago with Seachem Stability but my fish weren't doing well. That's why I decided to use Tetra Safestart a week ago. That's also the first time I detected Nitrate in my tank! According to your comment, if Nitrate is only produced from Nitrite by the good bacteria, not from something else, then I probably can have a good sleep tonight because my tank is finally cycled?

:)

[AquaticNerd]

Nitrate can be present in your water supply - so without testing your water for it you can't be certain.

With that said, fully-cycled only occurs when you have 0 Ammonia and 0 Nitrite with greater than 0 Nitrate. If you're still detecting any levels of ammonia (in your case it doesn't seem like you're detecting exactly 0 ammonia) or nitrite, then it is not fully cycled. While you may have some level of the beneficial bacteria, you haven't built up the colony large enough to take care of all of it as it is.

[rkeane]

Nitrate can be present in your water supply - so without testing your water for it you can't be certain.

With that said, fully-cycled only occurs when you have 0 Ammonia and 0 Nitrite with greater than 0 Nitrate. If you're still detecting any levels of ammonia (in your case it doesn't seem like you're detecting exactly 0 ammonia) or nitrite, then it is not fully cycled. While you may have some level of the beneficial bacteria, you haven't built up the colony large enough to take care of all of it as it is.

Thanks Jake. I took the advice from one of the comments in this post - I tested a bottled distilled water as well as my tank water, the colors of both results turned out to be the same. That may prove ammonia in my tank was actually zero?

But yeah I agree, I need more time to let the good bacteria to grow more so that they can battle unexpected ammonia spike!