Nitrite and Nitrate

[mjjdiscus]

Hey guys,

New to the forum and have a question.

I currently have a
90 Gal bare bottom
2 sponge filters and 2 Eheim pro 4+ 600 canisters
Fairly large air pump with long air stone on the bottom.

The tank has been running for around 3.5 weeks and it has 8-4" discus + 1-3" + 1-6".
I have recently started seeing some Nitrites and Nitrates while testing with the API kit.

Every morning test reads the following
Ammonia- 0
Nitrite - 0.25
Nitrate - 5 to 10

Since seeing the slight increase in Nitrite, I have been doing 50% - 75% WC each day, and have been dosing prime and stability. I have also recently added some Tetra safe start plus - 2 bottles, one in each canister filter. My question is by doing all these water changes how long will the cycling process take?
Should I keep doing the WC each day of should I run them every other day?
The fish are all active and swimming around and eating. I have also started limiting the feeding in this tank I am doing 2 smaller feeds a day.

Any recommendation on how to proceed, the nitrite was detected around 4 days ago prior to that all values were @ 0

Thank for your help in advance

[jeep]

Welcome to the forum!!

I would just keep up with the water changes until nitrites disappear, although 75% may be a bit too much. Good for discus, bad for bacteria colony. Adding additional bottled bacteria won't speed up the process. Now if you see an ammonia spike then keep a close eye on everything and adjust water changes as needed. If you see a larger nitrite spike then adding 2 tablespoons of salt per 10g will help them deal wit nitrite poisoning. I'd guess you have another 2-4 weeks to go.

[mjjdiscus]

Thanks jeep. ok sounds good I will cut the wc to 50% changes each day and hope this nitrite drops soon. Recommdations on feeding?? should i limit their feeding at this point?

[Megalodon]

Don't use Stability. It's heterotrophic bacteria which will compete with nitrifying bacteria.

[mjjdiscus]

so whats would be recommended. cycle??

[Shan_Evolved]

Don't use Stability. It's heterotrophic bacteria which will compete with nitrifying bacteria.

Wait WHAT? Is this true?? I have been using it to help with my mini-cycle. Are you telling me I'm doing the opposite?

@mjjdiscus

Just keep 50% water changes a day and 5x dose your prime to keep nitrites non-toxic

[Moreetta]

Nitrates are relatively inert, which means they're stable and unlikely to change and cause harm.

[jeep]

Thanks jeep. ok sounds good I will cut the wc to 50% changes each day and hope this nitrite drops soon. Recommdations on feeding?? should i limit their feeding at this point?

I'd just feed as normal unless your fish or your tests indicate you may be having an issue.

I don't test very often. I've seen a lot of people with cycle issues recently. I've never used bottles bacteria or even ammonia to pre-cycle a tank. When I've had to establish a new tank, I've always just done the water changes at about 40%-50% every day or other day, with aged, treated and heated water, and I've never had an ammonia related issue that was significant enough to be of concern.

[chevyvega927]

Hey guys,

New to the forum and have a question.

I currently have a
90 Gal bare bottom
2 sponge filters and 2 Eheim pro 4+ 600 canisters
Fairly large air pump with long air stone on the bottom.

The tank has been running for around 3.5 weeks and it has 8-4" discus + 1-3" + 1-6".
I have recently started seeing some Nitrites and Nitrates while testing with the API kit.

Every morning test reads the following
Ammonia- 0
Nitrite - 0.25
Nitrate - 5 to 10

Since seeing the slight increase in Nitrite, I have been doing 50% - 75% WC each day, and have been dosing prime and stability. I have also recently added some Tetra safe start plus - 2 bottles, one in each canister filter. My question is by doing all these water changes how long will the cycling process take?
Should I keep doing the WC each day of should I run them every other day?
The fish are all active and swimming around and eating. I have also started limiting the feeding in this tank I am doing 2 smaller feeds a day.

Any recommendation on how to proceed, the nitrite was detected around 4 days ago prior to that all values were @ 0

Thank for your help in advance

Those are actually pretty solid numbers!...especially with a bare bottom. My advice is to relax and just keep an eye out for spikes. You will get a ton of advice on here telling you to do water changes 24/7 but not from me. if you truly want to get those numbers to 0 then you cannot change out that much water daily, again especially with no substrate. Try 30% every other day. Besides the filter, substrate is where most of your bacteria lives. I know that it is a huge trend with Discus to have a bare bottom because it supposedly makes siphoning poop easier, but it is completely counterintuitive if you really think about it. Having good bacteria and a properly cycled tank will create the perfect biotope and a NATURALLY healthy environment for your fish.

BTW i use fine white sand as my substrate. It looks fantastic with the colors of the discus and you can see the poop clearly when it comes time to syphon.

[Willie]

At the risk of provoking combative comments, I usually avoid threads like these. But there are several erroneous statements which, if left as is, may lead to actions that would harm the fish. So here goes.

1. As you've correctly surmised, your tank is not cycled. A cycled tank will have undetectable levels of nitrite and ammonia. Since you've already added discus to the tank, the only course of action is to keep up large, frequent water changes to prevent nitrite/ammonia poisoning. Doing so will also delay the completion of the nitrification cycle, but you don't have a choice in this matter. So keep doing water changes until you can no longer detect nitrite and ammonia. After that, I advocate water changes to get the best discus - but that's discretionary.

2. In technical terms, nitrification is a process which by bacteria extracts energy by converting ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. Scientists categorize these bacteria as autotrophic or autotrophs. In contrast, most bacteria produce energy by consuming sugars and other carbohydrates. These are called heterotrophs or heterotrophic bacteria. So autotrophic and heterotrophic bacteria do not compete for resources, other than perhaps a place to sit.

3. Back when I was young, you used to be able to buy a can of lady bugs to eat all the bugs in your garden. If you did that in the morning, you'll see a lot of lady bugs that afternoon. The day after, every one is gone and all the bugs in your garden will resume chewing up your flowers. The same thing happens in the ecosystem that is your fish tank. Bacteria is being added to your tank every moment of the day from the surrounding air. Adding bottled bacteria to your tank does nothing except enrich product manufacturers who know perfectly well these concoctions do not work.

The best approach to cycling your tank is to ask a local hobbyist for a cycled sponge. Everyone who lives near the Twin Cities is welcome to drop by and pick up a free sponge from me with 24 hours of notice.

[Megalodon]

2. In technical terms, nitrification is a process which by bacteria extracts energy by converting ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. Scientists categorize these bacteria as autotrophic or autotrophs. In contrast, most bacteria produce energy by consuming sugars and other carbohydrates. These are called heterotrophs or heterotrophic bacteria. So autotrophic and heterotrophic bacteria do not compete for resources, other than perhaps a place to sit.

Heterotrophs compete with autotrophs for space, substrate, and oxygen. There's quite a bit of scientific literature on this subject.


Bacteria is being added to your tank every moment of the day from the surrounding air. Adding bottled bacteria to your tank does nothing except enrich product manufacturers who know perfectly well these concoctions do not work.

There are a few products that have true nitrifying bacteria and they often do work. Stability isn't one of them. They cycle a tank much faster than "bacteria from the air" (they actually come from tap water) because they contain a lot more bacteria.

Typical, the person who chimes in with the facts gets them wrong.

[Willie]

Heterotrophs compete with autotrophs for space, substrate, and oxygen. There's quite a bit of scientific literature on this subject.



There are a few products that have true nitrifying bacteria and they often do work. Stability isn't one of them. They cycle a tank much faster than "bacteria from the air" (they actually come from tap water) because they contain a lot more bacteria.

Typical, the person who chimes in with the facts gets them wrong.

If a student in my microbiology class were to provide this answer, they would be marked wrong.

[Megalodon]

If a student in my microbiology class were to provide this answer, they would be marked wrong.

I'm prepared to cite scientific literature.

Do you teach at a community college?

[chevyvega927]

I'm prepared to cite scientific literature.

Do you teach at a community college?

Whoooooaaaaa! Look out everyone...we got an internet tough guy over here. Had to go back and edit his post because he was stewing in his mom's basement and finally came up with a comeback.

[Shan_Evolved]

I think it's perfectly alright to have a difference in opinion due to experiences and real life circumstances.

I myself have cycled a tank in 5 weeks with tetra safe start + but also cycled a larger tank in 2 months with a seeded sponge from the LFS. So in my experience they have both worked. Then again, I'm the dummy who squeezed out a lot of my valuable autotrophs so take that with a grain of salt.

Back on topic -

What would you do if your nitrites rose from 0.5ppm to 2-5ppm within 24 hours? Even after daily large water changes?

[chevyvega927]

I think it's perfectly alright to have a difference in opinion due to experiences and real life circumstances.

I myself have cycled a tank in 5 weeks with tetra safe start + but also cycled a larger tank in 2 months with a seeded sponge from the LFS. So in my experience they have both worked. Then again, I'm the dummy who squeezed out a lot of my valuable autotrophs so take that with a grain of salt.

Back on topic -

What would you do if your nitrites rose from 0.5ppm to 2-5ppm within 24 hours? Even after daily large water changes?

Dang bro! Did this happen to you? That's a big jump for 24 hours. Normally water changes would be the advice but if it isn't working then it may just be a broken cycle. I think I addressed this in your other thread but there just may not be enough bacteria in the tank. This same thing just happened to me last week... I wasn't thinking and I changed out both cartridges in my marineland 350 biowheel at the same time. Luckily the space is big enough and i keep an extra sponge in both compartments. But even with that, after weeks of zeroes on all tests, my nitrites went to 1ppm, ammonia to .50 ppm, and nitrates to 10 ppm. I added some prime and after a week the cycle readjusted and I'm back down to zeroes. In the meantime the fish barely noticed. Again, I have substrate and a lightly planted tank. I also only do 30% changes every other day. BUT this is just what works for me.

I know you work hard at your discus keeping but sometimes the best course of action is patience and monitoring the fish. If the nitrates are at 40ppm but the fish look great then you're probably ok. If they look stressed then make an adjustment. Just remember that Stendker keeps their tanks at 200 Nitrate ppm or below and Hans at 100 ppm. Long story short, you got a lot of room to play with. Too much fiddling can be bad too. Either way i have seen how much you love your fish and what you have been through so i hope it does correct itself for you.

[chevyvega927]

130051

Here is my set up. Super simple and my fish are all eating like savages and colored up nice. I even have an electric blue acara in there too.

[Shan_Evolved]

Very gorgeous setup and thanks for sharing R V. I'm glad you got through your minicycle successfully.

I am more worried specifically about nitrites than nitrates, but I agree on what you're saying regarding patience. My fish seem okay and are still eating. Just worried about high nitrites. I would like to reduce water changes to help the cycle, but at the same time my nitrites keep on climbing so I'm not sure if reducing water changes is the correct choice.

Sorry if this isn't exactly what OP posted about, but since we're on the discussion of nitrites thought I'd say something

[bluelagoon]

Welcome to the forum!!

I would just keep up with the water changes until nitrites disappear, although 75% may be a bit too much. Good for discus, bad for bacteria colony. Adding additional bottled bacteria won't speed up the process. Now if you see an ammonia spike then keep a close eye on everything and adjust water changes as needed. If you see a larger nitrite spike then adding 2 tablespoons of salt per 10g will help them deal wit nitrite poisoning. I'd guess you have another 2-4 weeks to go.

+1 best answer so far.