Genetics of Pitch Black Rams

[LizStreithorst]

My most beloved pair of Pitch Blacks from Tom's (CoralBandit) line had huge spawns and produces nothing but black fry rather than the 1/2 & 1/2 black or gold that is usually the case. I was surprised when a pair from that mating produced 1/2 black and 1/2 gold. Can anybody tell me how this can be genetically possible? The black gene and the gold gene in rams work in a way I don't understand.

[Ryan]

That’s what I was curious about. If those fry from pitch black pairs would also breed true. I guess that means it doesn’t work like DD black angels.

Oddly the breeder in south Africa working with them seems to have 100% pitch black producing pairs.

[LizStreithorst]

I think it does but I've never worked with black Angels. I just wasn't fond of them.

[Ryan]

Double dark blacks carried two recessive black genes so if I remember correctly, if both parents were double darks, all the fry would be. Albinos and golds work the same way. If two fry from a pair that produced 100% pitch black rams ended up having golds in their spawn, that seems to suggest the genetics aren’t as straightforward as angels. Maybe gold and black genes are carried on different alleles?

[LizStreithorst]

I never learned about alleles in high school biology. I'm gonna do a bit of research.

[LizStreithorst]

I still haven't learned about alleles but if a guy from South Africa did it, I should be able to do it too. He must have started with just one pair. I have tons of fry since the parent pair are very prolific. It'll be a fun breeding project.

[FischAutoTechGarten]

Most breeders began with the same 'black' rams (kind of a very dirty blue ram) from Dansiger in Israel (even if they came from there third hand).

Some found by crossing with Golds they could get a very pronounced dark coloring... Although not true breeding, the results were quite good for those that displayed the black coloring. Toms are such an example and look very good.. such that he's called them Pitch Black.

Others, like Marco Du Toit of South Africa and Rafael Estenoz of the United States took the heavy culling route. Intially they had weak small spawns with few survivors. As they perfected the lines, they later re-introduced Wild Columbian Rams into the Blood line for Strength. Several generations later, they have true breeding strong fish, good spawn sizes and good color. Marco and Rafael call their lines Dark Knights and Black Knights respectively.

I'm abbreviating, but that seems to be the two major paths breeders have taken.

What's confusing is all of the folks offering Dark Rams or Black Rams that are not very good looking (appearing like very dirty Blue Rams). I have seen such 'Black Rams' in Arizona and Washington, always small. I know some find them attractive and they are in their way... but naming them such really detracts from the fine work that Tom, Rafael, Marco and others have put into developing really good looking strong strains. I hope folks can come to a basic agreement on naming... but I doubt it... I'm sure it will get as nutty as Discus nomenclature (eg. how many different names can you give to a Red Turq?)...

I would be really interested in knowing how the temprements compare between the Pitch Blacks and Dark Knights. Is that genetically driven?

I only learned enough about genetics to pass exams.... I don't recall much of it all all and understand even less...

[LizStreithorst]

Wow! Thank you for the education, Peter. I think I'll just wait and see if I can find another pair of their offspring that produce all Pitch Black and decide what to do at that point. My pair which are Tom's grand fish I sometimes see one or two that look like the ones I've seen advertised as Black Rams that are just dark with a blue pattern. I net them out and put them in a big community tank. Most of my kids are like the Pitch Blacks that I got from Tom.

My education in genetics is limited mostly to what Mendel noted. I've always gone by what my eye and common sense tells me in everything I've bred from dogs to Dairy Goats, and finally to fish. Knowledge of genetics is helpful, I think, but is not totally necessary.

[coralbandit]

You can't see the double dark gene is how I figure it ?
So a very dark ram may carry the DD or not .
That is what makes picking pairs to continue breeding so difficult .
The pair of PBR you sent me had 50/50 gold dark fry ..
The best I ever got was 75% dark and 25% gold .
I have never even had one solid /true spawn of the darks .

I called my guys Pitch Black because I never used any Dark Knights and the name does not thrill me .
My rams came from Shahar Danziger who is the creator of the black ram [and Dantumn angels ]..

[LGelb]

Do you have any rams available

[LizStreithorst]

Yes, unproven pairs for $65, plus shipping. Send me a PM if interested.

[jeep]

I really like mine. Very healthy and beautiful!!

These are the nicest ram's I've seen and not very common in my area!

[LizStreithorst]

Houston, we have a problem.

Some of the pairs from the parents that produce only black are giving me eggs that turn white. I've had 2 pairs that did this after 3 tries. A customer had a pair from this group that tried 5 times without success before the male up and killed his wife. The fish should be old enough to be fertile but the only fertile ones I've had so far are the ones that produce but gold and black fry.

I am forced into having to prove my pairs before I sell them and I have so very few small small tanks to breed them in and no money to buy more. If I do get a pair that produces only black do I select pairs from them with the goal of producing a line that produces just black fry or will I just be digging myself into a deeper hole?

[coralbandit]

I think this was the general consensus from people who got Marcos 'Dark Knights ' .
The breeding was horrible along with the general health of the fish that did manage to hatch and be raised .Or at least his early spawns in development .
Since I haven't locked them in I can't say what you should do but I try to match up my darkest in hopes of high yield black spawns but I am still stuck at 50/50 .
I don't sell proven pairs and most of are not even natural paired . I pick the pairs in 9 out 10 cases selling my rams . It could take almost a year to prove a pair and that might really be half of the fishes life in some cases ..

[LizStreithorst]

I wish I'd known this before I devoted so much time, food and tank space on all these spawns from the pair in question.

I never used to sell proven pairs before now, Tom. But now it's either that or flush them all which I imagine is what I'll do with them.

[coralbandit]

I did not know this till a customer linked me to a pod cast I was mentioned in on Black rams .
The person speaking [another one of my customers ] explained what a hard time he had with Marcos rams and how mine were better [he thought] due to my crossing the gold into the black to bring calm and better blood into the line .
I have been working these fish since 2017 and have not locked them in .
They take longer to grow out and for me are few and far between in spawns .Most of my PBR are not sold before they are 6 months old minimum as opposed to 4 months old for GBR or EBR .
I simply tell my customers or who ever asks that my pairs are male female that i choose and that is how it goes .
They can always get them somewhere else huh ?
I have had no problem moving pairs for $100..Matter of fact almost all my most recent batch is gone and I never even listed them once !
Post pics of what you got I might take them all or a large portion to lighten your load !
I know you're a top notch breeder and started with A plus stock ..

[LizStreithorst]

Would you sell them without informing them of potential breeding problems in the line? I'm not sure if I could do that. Am I being morally obsessive?

A big pet store is interested in me becoming his supplier. Let me talk to my own LPS and ask how much they pay for them wholesale. They probably can only get German blues, but it will give me an idea of what to ask. I'll take some pics and post them later.

[LizStreithorst]

Here ya go, Tom. 3 different spawns 2 of which are of breeding age. Half the babies are in with their parents the other half are alone. Tanks range in size from 60 to 90 gallons. WC daily, same as I do with my Discus. These are just snap shots if you want close ups let me know.

[coralbandit]

How old do you consider breeding age ?
The blacks mature slower .
How old are the pairs that are giving you trouble .
9 out of 10 people are lucky to keep rams alive without even considering breeding .
I would guess less then 1 out of 10 stands a chance of being able to breed and raise rams .
Maybe I am wrong ? I still don't see what you consider a problem that a customer would need to be made aware of ..
I do tell my customers that blacks are what I call hit or miss, meaning they may be the best parents ever seen or homicidal maniacs .
Not sure there is much more to it .
The supplier I got them from still sells them for $60 each with no guarantee of sex ..
$100 a pair for a educated eye to sex them still seems like a better deal then I got .. Back in 2017 .....

[LizStreithorst]

They're over 4 months old, Tom. So far there have been 5 pairs that have not produced wigglers and 3 that have. I think if I can get a fair price I would rather wholesale most of them and offer only the parent raising ones for sale. Could I possibly get $150. per pair for parent raising pairs on AB?

[LizStreithorst]

There was a fertile pair of Blacks that produced half and half blacks and golds. I had them promised to a guy in Calif. I was to ship the pair today. Apparently the female jumped and committed suicide over night. I'm devastated. I have not yet seen any other fertile pairs. I want to net them all out and dig them into the garden to fertilize my vegetables.

[LizStreithorst]

I guess that for now at least they won't be fertilizer. The buyer who knows the whole story about these Rams has decided to wait for another fertile spawn. He is the most kind and understanding person ever. I feel a little better now.

[LizStreithorst]

I came to a decision about this a couple of weeks ago. I have been selling the younger Blacks as unsexed. Tom said that I should and I thought about it for another week. Then I asked Twee, my friend who owns my LFS. She is an extremely moral person. When she said that it would not be immoral to sell them unsexed was when I started doing it. Just like Tom said they sell like crazy.

I also have a 90 and a 65 filled with the breeding aged adults that I had been selling as pairs before I figured out that somehow the double black resulted in mostly infertile fish. I just didn't know that when I started selling them. Now that I know I can't sell them. They will all have to fertilize my garden. I hate killing fish, but sometimes I have no choice.

I still have the Pitch Black mom and dad that had been so prolific for me. They're not Spring chickens but they are still healthy and vibrant. Once I have the empty grow out space I will pair my black male with a gold female and visa versa. I will be starting from scratch breeding Pitch Black Rams, but it will feel good to get a fresh start.

Tom, things are a lot different now than they were om 2017 when you bought yours. Besides, killing a bunch of small fish is not worth loosing my reputation.

[danotaylor]

Liz your honestly and integrity is refreshing my friend!! I was thinking some people may be interested in potentially unfertile double blacks as display fish. They would still look beautiful and not cause the problems in a display set up that breeders might cause. Obviously you may not get a premium price but none the less some may want them still and save them from swimming in your soil ;)

[dspeers]

Liz, I don't know why you don't sell them with the caveat that they are infertile at least when crossed with each other. If you are upfront about it it is completely ethical. If I weren't dealing with one parent in hospice and another with health issues I would be running my tanks and certainly would buy. You might want to try breeding them to unrelated golds, in that scenario they might breed successfully. You should get either 50:50 black and gold or all black. That most of the matings between siblings are failing suggests too much inbreeding resulting in infertility or frail constitution.

My guess is that you have one parent that has two Black Genes, and the other in the pair has 1 black and 1 gold gene. Black is dominant so all black/gold genotypes are black appearing just like the black/black genotypes. You would expect in this cross to have 1/2 offspring with Black/Black genes, and the other half to have Black/Gold, but 100 % of offspring would appear black. If you cross two of the first generation that have black/gold genes you would expect 25% to be gold. That up to 50 % are gold argues that either the Black/black variant is not as hearty as a Gold/Gold or that both the black/black and black/gold are less viable. Alternately there are more complex inheritance patterns but I think this is a straightforward 1 gene dominant, 1 recessive scenario.

[LizStreithorst]

I would do that if there were any demand for fish locally. There are too many unknows and it's too complex an situation to explain in an AB auction. I will be happy if my young unsexed blacks bring in enough money to pay for my old farm truck that is at the mechanic's being treated for internal injuries after having caught fire last month.

Thanks for what sounds at first blush like a simple solution, but it will be easier for me to start over with a black/gold pair and take it from there.

[FischAutoTechGarten]

I keep so many fish that I never intend to breed. I wouldn't be at all disappointed to get Pitch Black Rams that were unlikely to breed, provided the were healthy enough to fill their 2 year lifespan...

[LizStreithorst]

LOL. Want me to send you some, Peter? They're cheap.

[dspeers]

Really wish I was up and running, would love to play with these and see how many (if any) were fertile with unrelated golds. Liz if I were you, I would just advertise as poor or very poor breeders on AB. When you ship, just send copy of my message above with the fish and let the new owner play or not with what he has, not all want to breed. Would certainly help with wounded truck. Didn't CB indicate that he sold all his PBs without even advertising on AB?

[LizStreithorst]

He did. At the moment I still have a ton of young ones that I'm selling on AB. The auctions often sell within a few days. I have my hands full keeping up with the orders. I won't give the adults to the garden as fertilizer yet. I have my mamma black in with a gold male. I'll see how that goes before I make up my mind what to do.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. You have given me a lot to consider.

[Iminit]

Liz most people are just keepers not breeders. I’ve never bought a fish with intent to breed. Those are some great looking rams!! And blacks are at a premium. I never see them at the pet stores by me. Most will be happy to thrilled to get some. And if yours are still producing. Keep selling!! You’ll make many people happy! And maybe get a new truck :).

[FischAutoTechGarten]

LOL. Want me to send you some, Peter? They're cheap.

hmm, tempting. only issue is I am maintaining 27degC - 28.5degC in the system. Falls to 27degC at night (the setpoint for the heat to come on) and increases to 28.5degC during the day. It's quite warm in my home (27degC or 80.5degF) due to the heat outside. My fishnook water runs warmer than that on it's own with the pumps and led lighting. My heat doesn't even come on now. My RO Water storage is in the bodega off of my carport...and I see that when I do 40% water changes, I don't even drop the temperature more than .5degC.

So, I'm not sure if 80.5 to 83.0 degF will be suitable for the rams. I hate to raise it anymore on account of my corydoras (6 different species of corydoras).
Once it starts getting routinely 100degF outside, we will have our AC to maintain 80degF inside the home, so the situation shouldn't get much worse in the summer. My water changes will happen early in the morning, so by then even the RO Water in the bodega will probably have cooled to 80degF as well. We try to keep the AC off until June 1st, and then run it through October.

Please, send me a PM with a price to ship 2 to 4 of them to 85622 (or I can get them directly at Tucson International Airport... however you do it). I might consider it.

[LizStreithorst]

PM sent.

I'd love nothing more than send them to someone who knows all about the fertility issue and just wants them to enjoy watching and caring for them rather than breed them.

If anyone else is interested in excellent quality Pitch Black Rams that will likely not produce wigglers please PM me. They're super cheap for their quality.

The reason I won't make this offer on Aquabid is because many people who buy there are looking for quality fish for breeding. I don't want to get the reputation for being the woman whose fish cannot produce fry. I've been thinking about this since I first realized there was a problem which was April 10 when I first posted about it. I usually make my decisions emotionally but not this one.

[Fonda1963]

Send me some Miss. Liz I am setting up another tank.. ha

[FischAutoTechGarten]

I'd take a gamble on some Liz, but I have a business trip in a few weeks and will be gone 3 weeks. My wife is accompanying me, so we will have friends from Mexico staying at the house taking care of the entire Fish Nook, 2 dogs, our cat and filling the bird/hummingbird feeders. Honestly, I expect there to be losses, despite my automation... So I don't want to take a risk on Rams until I am settled back home mid July.

[LizStreithorst]

I'm hoping that the wholesaler who my pet store buys from, Sun Pet, will take the majority of these. Even at $5. each, it they take 100 it will amount to a pretty penny.

I have 2 new spawns now. The older spawn is a gold to black. All the kids are black. The other is one of the rare ones from a black to black pair. They are all black as well. The black to black spawn will have to be bred to gold when them mature, I'm sure of it. I'll probably breed the black to gold spawn back to gold, too.

[FischAutoTechGarten]

Liz, If I were to buy 12, how quickly could they arrive to Tucson Arizona?

[LizStreithorst]

USPS Express now says between one and three days.

[LizStreithorst]

I thought that I had up-dated this thread but I just looked at it and I have said nothing for a week. I had a pair of blacks that did produce fry so my guess is that 1 in 5 will be fertile. A couple of AB customers have told me that they have had fry, too. I crossed a gold male with a black female and got all black fry. Then I crossed a gold female with a black male and got half and half black and gold. It will be these I'll be keeping for future breeding and sales.

I should hear back from a potential buyer who has read this thread Saturday. He wants some for himself and will ask other hobbyists he knows if they might want some. I'll hear from the LPS Monday if their wholesaler is interested in the rest. Now that I have some good ones to grow out I feel much better about how this has turned out.

[FischAutoTechGarten]

Well Liz, can't wait to receive some of those Pitch Black Rams. Lots of hobbyist here in southern Arizona are going to be quite pleased to have them. Nice talking to you Monday.

[LizStreithorst]

Thanks Peter. I'm looking forward to you having them, too. All we need to do is pray to the gods of the USPS to do right.

[FischAutoTechGarten]

They are in the quarantine tank.... 10 gallons of 95% RO and 5% aged tap. I removed all of the plants (although a quarantine tank, it's been serving as a plant nursery for trimmings I'm trading tomorrow) and did a 50% water change a few hours before the Rams arrived. Temp of 82degF (house is warm as our temps are between 105-109 this week... so I'm sitting at 28-29degC these days instead of 27degC).

Many are going to fellow hobbyist in the fish club tomorrow... I'll keep just four for myself.

131462

Water appears cloudy in ths photo. Not sure why, but it is definitely very clear water. :)

[LizStreithorst]

I know that I breed good fish and I really appreciate the fact that you are looking more at the quality than the breeding potential. Breeding is not the thing for most hobbyists, but it often is for hard to find fish like these. Mostly I'm just happy that you're pleased with them. Thanks.

[FischAutoTechGarten]

I love keeping aquariums. I'm a rudimentary fishkeeper and subpar aquatic gardner. I'd be pleased just to keep everyone alive, well and happy. If breeding happens by accident, so be it... those youngins' will have to fend for themselves in those active community tanks of mine./. Breeding, that's not my end game. I just like having pretty community style tanks with a nice variety of plants and fish. That's why I have the Fish Nooks... 6 tanks on one system makes for a light work load, but permits me to have an awesome varity of livestock.

[FischAutoTechGarten]

They are gone. They were all gone by 12 noon today.... about 24 hours after receiving them. Will be interesting to see how the stores and the hobbyist do with them.

[LizStreithorst]

Cool! Please let me know how it goes. I'm curious to know, too. I'll be taking 100 to my LFS for the wholesaler to pick up Wed but I'm sure I'll have some left if you want to do it again. :D

[FischAutoTechGarten]

Going to a board meeting for the Fish Club tomorrow... I'll ask those guys if they want any....

I have a work trip in 10 days planned and I will be gone for almost three weeks... So I will only order more Rams if I can get place them with folks the day the arrive. :)...

Thanks Liz.

BTW, the six that I kept love their home with 6 rummy nose tetras, 6 cardinal tetras, 6 dwarf corydoras 4 otocinclus vitatus, 2 amano shrimp and 1 juvenile bristlenose pleco. :D They are going to love that I am up to 2 x 40% water changes a week.

[FischAutoTechGarten]

So, as mentioned.... 22 fish went immediately.... 8 to 1 fish store, 4 to another fish store, 10 to private fish club members (2+2+2+4). I've not heard anything from the fish stores.

However, one of the buyers of the a pair (we really made sure to get a male and female) say they are doing great in a 40 breeder with dither fish.

The buyer of 4 of them, introduced them to a 20 gallon regular tank... where one strong male killed 2 of the rams and badly injured a 3rd. Whoops. He moved the aggressive male to a large 135 gallon community tank where it sought out the German Rams, Gold Rams and Bolivian Ram and started to beat them up as well. I guess he's a fiesty one.

For my part, those 6 continue to do well. I felt by keeping 6 together with other dither fish that I would have checks and balances for aggression and I think I was right.... I have one or two that are more aggressive, but not to the detriment of the other 4. Massive water changes, clean conditions, nice temp (We've had 7 days of 110-115 degF temps, so the house is at 80... and the RO water from the storage bodega is coming in about 83degF... so the tanks are sitting at 82degF... instead of the normal 79 I had).... Probably favors the rams more than the corydoras.... That said, I've lost just 1 fish this month (a tiny panda cory) in my entire Fish Nook so I feel as if everything is really dialed in right now.

[LizStreithorst]

Peter, I've never had a killer myself but Tom has talked about them. One guy who purchased a pair from me had a pair that had spawned twice unsuccessfully but were still living happily together. Then out of nowhere Boom! The male slaughtered his mate. I did make it right with the guy. If you have the chance to do this again I'll replace the fish your friend lost, as well. I still have another 100 fish so for me it's not a big deal.

Let me know how the pet stores did with theirs when you find out. I'm curious.

[LizStreithorst]

A fresh start. This half black and half gold spawn warms my heart. I think the color of my gold female is gorgeous. Dad's in there but he's so black it's hard to spot him where he is in front of the plant.

[FischAutoTechGarten]

Sorry to deviate from the Pitch Black Ram topic, but that's an excellent Gold Female. Do you have a male GOld that is as expressive? That would be a very nice spawn...

[danotaylor]

She's a very pretty gal Liz!!

[LizStreithorst]

I think she's a beauty too, guys. Unfortunately her color will not be the same after she get out of mothering mode. When I netted her out of the display tank she was only the color you general see with Golds. I'm enjoying see her in motherhood colors while I can.

Peter, I do have her brother in the same display tank. I won't be using him because when I bred him to a black female every one of the kids were black. It makes no sense to me how he can express gold and throw only black. Anyone have a clue? I need a Ram genetics expert to explain this to me. And while he's at it I'd ask why most of the black from black pairs do not produce fertile offspring.

[FischAutoTechGarten]

Genetics discussion aside.... these Pitch Black Rams that I received from you Liz are the best behaving Rams that I have had in a very long while. They are great eaters, very active, good tankmates (they are dominant, but they are not uncontrollably aggressive). I'd doing good water changes, have great circulation, lots of plants; these guys are just responding positively to the well suited environment they are in... No one hides, no clamped fins, no staying at the top, etc... Just healthy fish.

I've got this little 10 gallon tank I put together for the Desert Aquarist Society (Tucson area fish club) 10-Gallon Challenge... I might move 2 of them over to that tank at the end of July just to see what happens. I bit hesitant becuase the conditions in the FishNook are just fantastic. But here's that low tech 10 gallon planted aquarium... (the baby silver angels are temporary... I got 6 for a $1.. they are being gifted to a person who will be staying at our home and taking care of my tanks for two weeks)

131533

[Discluv]

Hey Liz, Do you have any of Tom's dark rams for sale? Do you ship?

[LizStreithorst]

I do, but if you've read through this thread you will know that there are some fertility problems with this batch. The thread explains why. If what you want are excellent quality Pitch Blacks from Tom's line to look at they'll fit the bill. But for breeding I estimate only one out of 4 or 5 pairs produces fertile eggs. Shipping is no problem. Send me a PM if you're interested.

[Discluv]

I do, but if you've read through this thread you will know that there are some fertility problems with this batch. The thread explains why. If what you want are excellent quality Pitch Blacks from Tom's line to look at they'll fit the bill. But for breeding I estimate only one out of 4 or 5 pairs produces fertile eggs. Shipping is no problem. Send me a PM if you're interested.

I hadn't read through the thread. Yes, looking for some Rams for breeding. Ive had some really bad luck with the females. Ive got males and no females.

[LizStreithorst]

If you can cross to a Gold you will for sure get fry. If you breed to a black to a gold parent you should get a high percentage of viable fry. That's how I got got back in the game after this kick in the head. I'm sure that I can choose females.

[Discluv]

I think I went through the same issue with my own pairs the last batch I got. They would spawn, but no viable fry from spawning. I thought maybe it just wasn't the time of year or I had lost my touch. This makes me feel better. Others were having the same struggle.

[LizStreithorst]

I though it didn't happen often but now I'm starting to wonder.

[Discluv]

If you can cross to a Gold you will for sure get fry. If you breed to a black to a gold parent you should get a high percentage of viable fry. That's how I got got back in the game after this kick in the head. I'm sure that I can choose females.

Oh okay! So, it is possible to get viable spawns. Just cannot do B/B-- need to mix with golds.
Yes, I would like to get some golds and blacks. Maybe a dozen depending on price. If they are older-6 months- even better.

[LizStreithorst]

Sent you a PM.

[FischAutoTechGarten]

The 6 Black Rams that I held back for myself are still doing very well. Good behavior, good growth! Good work Liz.

[LizStreithorst]

Thanks Peter. I'm still selling them on AB. I have about 50 left. All my grow outs are from both black pairs that produced golds as well and black to gold crosses. Once they mature there should be no fertility problem with them. Going through this fertility problem was a depressing shock with fish of this quality. Note to everyone breeding these. If you breed black to black and get all back fry there is a high probability that about 1/4 of the offspring will not produce fertile eggs unless crossed with gold.

I wonder what happened to CoralBandit. He used to be here all the time and he has not appeared for a long time. He hasn't posted any auctions on AB for a long time either.

[Iminit]

Guessing he’s busy with work. This is his busy season. He’s on another forum from time to time.

[LizStreithorst]

Thanks for letting me know. I was a little worried that he might be sick. :undecided:

[utiliy]

I sent you a message on these...

[LizStreithorst]

I still have many pairs for sale. It seems that the infertility problem that I thought was related to the fish themselves was related to water quality. Please send me a PM rather that a visitor message. That way we can have a privite conversation rather a conversation in public.

[FischAutoTechGarten]

Liz, I passed my Rams on so that I could lower my overall water temps in my entire system (I was keeping it high for 4 Rams... yeah 4... I had allot of jumpers.. go figure) to better suit corydoras (I'm keeping about 15 different kinds of corydoras)....

That said, I'll pass your info onto a fellow here in Tucson AZ that is also doing work with Rams and would like another source (in fact, he was mad at himself for not purchasing any Rams from that group I bought from you last summer).

Glad to know that your rams are doing well. Interesting, Marco related that he went through a phase with a couple of pair that were producing very small spawns..... But that one of the pairs picked it up and is producing very large spawns (I saw the videos... just huge... ). Tempremental demanding fish these Rams are...

One consequence of lowering my water temps is that my 6 large Bleeding Heart Tetras throw eggs at every water change (But the Venezuelan Black Corydoras in their tank devour the eggs immediately).

[LizStreithorst]

Peter, It turns out that it was a water problem. I couldn't hatch a spawn even in TDS 35 water! I took Cliff's advice to remove the eggs and hatch them in 100% RO. I just had another batch of Pitch Black rams eggs whose eggs started wiggling this morning. Strange about the jumpers. During all the time I've had rams I've only had one jumper. Thanks for the referral.

[Charlyc11]

Peter, It turns out that it was a water problem. I couldn't hatch a spawn even in TDS 35 water! I took Cliff's advice to remove the eggs and hatch them in 100% RO. I just had another batch of Pitch Black rams eggs whose eggs started wiggling this morning. Strange about the jumpers. During all the time I've had rams I've only had one jumper. Thanks for the referral.

Liz that's what I do sort of, I take the eggs out put them in RO in the specimen box with 2 drops of MB and return to the parents after 24 hrs. I might extend that a little bit since one of the pairs had 50 % white egg when they went back. The other pair 99 % good large spawn.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcbRVN5OJzc

[LizStreithorst]

Cliff instructed me on what to do with Discus but I do the same thing with Rams. Change the wiggler's water with some of the parent's water when they first start to wiggle and return them to the parents when they first start to free swim.

[LizStreithorst]

Cliff instructed me on what to do with Discus but I do the same thing with Rams. Change the wiggler's water with some of the parent's water when they first start to wiggle and return them to the parents when they first start to free swim.

[FischAutoTechGarten]

nice video. thanks for sharing.

[LGelb]

Liz, do you have any black rams available?

[LizStreithorst]

I do indeed. Shoot me a PM.