Daniel's First Discus Tank

[karmicwheel]

Hi All,

My name is Daniel, and in this thread I'll document my first attempt at keeping discus. I've been inspired to do this by Shan and his extensive journal found here:

Shan's First Discus Journey (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?136139-Shan-s-First-Discus-Journey)

I've really appreciated the level of detail Shan has included, and I've also really appreciated that he hasn't left anything out, good or bad. I've learned a lot from that thread, and from the many people who have responded to it.

I have also been reading this forum somewhat obsessively over the last 4 months, when the idea of keeping discus started. Like, I suspect, many other families, my family has gotten into fish keeping during the pandemic and the lockdown/stay-at-home orders so many of us have been forced to endure. This is the second time in my life I've gotten into fish-keeping. The first was almost 30 years ago, when I kept angelfish and gouramis, and once kept a Peter's elephantnose for a little while. Back then, I saw my first discus in my LFS. They were quite beautiful, but I was scared off of keeping them because "they are too hard" as I heard over and over again. Well, this time I started thinking about discus again, and was almost getting scared off of them again, when disaster struck. Well, not exactly disaster, but despite our best efforts, COVID-19 made it into my household. To make a long story short, my kids never had any symptoms, my wife was fatigued for a few weeks, and I got pneumonia that never got bad enough to require hospitalization, but that also hasn't gone away yet. My pneumonia symptoms started in January. Anyway, one of the things they gave me to try to treat the inflammation caused by COVID was a lovely drug called dexamethasone. I was more or less awake for 10 days, anxious almost the entire time, unable to focus on a book or a movie or even a stupid sitcom, so I had a lot of time on my hands. The thing that saved me from (almost literally) going crazy? YouTube videos of discus fishtanks. And some other videos as well, documenting how to keep discus, videos of people's setups for managing large water changes, that sort of thing. So after I came off that horrid drug, I resolved to get a large fishtank and keep discus. And in this thread I'm going to document getting there, getting my first discus, and once I have them I'll try to document how each week goes. In addition to Shan (@Shan_Evolved), I want to thank Willie (@Willie) and Tom (@Iminit) for answering my initial questions and for steering me towards starting with a 75 gallon tank, rather than the 210 I planned to start with.

So, let's start at the beginning.

[karmicwheel]

What did I need to keep discus? Well, a tank obviously. I purchased a 210 gallon tank (currently residing well protected in my garage), but after some good advice from Willie & Tom in a different thread, I picked up a 75 gallon tank when Petco had a 50% off sale. The tank would also need a stand. My wife and I found the commercially available stands to be either ugly, or too expensive, so we decided that I would build the stand(s). See, I had already agreed to build her a stand for the 50 gallon lowboy aquarium she had acquired to house her axolotl. This tank has a 4 ft x 2 ft footprint, but is only 10 inches high. Seemed like a perfect tank to practice my stand building skills on since the full tank wouldn't weigh that much, meaning my mistakes (if I made any) here would be less costly than on, say, a 210 gallon tank, where everything would need to be as perfect and perfectly level as I could possibly make it. So on Feb 28 I started. Here's a few pics of it in progress:

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And the finished product:
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There's an axolotl in there somewhere.

This stand was finished and put in place on March 23. It was time to start the stand for the 75 gallon. Using what I learned from the 50 gallon lowboy stand, I expected the build to take much less time. More on that next time.

[Acerrato]

Good luck Daniel! The stand came out really great! I started with Discus a little over a year ago when I impulsively purchased 3 little runts from my LFS.. All the store told me was that they needed a lot of water changes and higher temps... that was it - and they sent me on my way.. I brought them home, plopped them into a heavily planted 40 gallon breeder with substrate. Within 3 weeks they were all dead and I was absolutely devastated. Came here to the forum and realized all of the mistakes I had made. The number 1 mistake being, that I purchased low quality, unhealthy fish from my LFS. I studied this forum for months (as you did) because I wasn't giving up! I purchased a 125 gallon and started cycling it while I was studying the forum. After the tank was cycled, I purchased 15 beautiful Stendker discus from Discus Hans.. OH MY GOD... the difference in quality was amazing - these fish took my breath away! They were clearly so much healthier than the LFS fish that I had purchased. I'm sure that you've read this - but one of the most important things you can do is purchase fish from a quality breeder - the bigger the fish, the better. My first few months with Hans' fish, I learned what worked and what didn't work. I initially started with 2 HOB's and 4 sponge filters as my main filtration.. with feeding these fish 4x per day, I quickly realized that the filtration that I had just wasn't cutting it. I upgraded to a Fluval FX6 and I loved it.... I eventually also added an FX4 onto that tank as well. In the beginning, I'd kind of freak out over every little thing.. If one of my fish didn't eat during feeding time, it would send me into instant panic... "Why aren't they eating?", "Are they sick already?", "What have I done wrong?"... and then I'd proceed to make unnecessary adjustments to the tank which did end up stressing most of the fish out. I learned a lot from this first batch of Discus from Hans and I've made many mistakes... but the important part there is that I learned hands on... (I learn best that way)... My best advice - buy from a quality breeder, keep your water as clean as possible, and don't freak out over every little thing.... Sit back, relax and enjoy them!

Not sure if you've ever taken a look at my thread - I think it's called "Amanda's Discus Journey", but you'll be able to see first hand how panicky I was over everything.. It's honestly embarrassing now that I read back through it but hey, I had a lot of help from a lot of great people who have certainly helped me grow as a Discus keeper - and I'm grateful for them!

~Amanda

[Iminit]

Great looking stand!! If your not already you’ve got a future in cabinet making!! Love the doors!! As Amanda say quality discus are what you need. And medicine is something to look into. Next is a qt tank. Even for the 75 you’ll want something to move a sick fish into. Good luck!!

[karmicwheel]

Amanda - Thanks, I was pleased with how the tank stand turned out. I am planning on ordering from Discus Hans once my 75G is cycled. I'm going to try to avoid overreacting when something appears to be going wrong, and just observe and treat when it looks to become necessary. And have an ample supply of aquarium salt on hand. As to your thread, I may have read it. I read a whole bunch of threads here initially, and now they're all a bit jumbled in my head.

Tom - Thanks, I actually did work for a cabinetry shop for a couple years back when I was 19-20 years old. I'm grateful for the skills I learned, but I find it a much better hobby than career. As to the doors, I'll let you in on a little secret. Home Depot sells unfinished doors. I lack the necessary tools for making frame & panel doors so I ordered them unfinished and then just put on the finish to match the rest of the stand. I will definitely have a QT tank, which I think needs to be at least 20 gallons? My wife and I have a 10 gallon that we've used for a quarantine and hospital tank, but frankly we hate it. Any small change to the bioload and you end up in a mini cycle.

[Willie]

A 20-gal tank is a lot more flexible since you can use it for quarantine several discus and for medication. For medication, you can just drop the water level halfway and save 50% on medication. It'll also help the heater bring up the water temperature. I found a 20 Extra High on Craig's List. It has the footprint of a 10-gal tank, just twice as high. When I quarantine, I fill it to the top. When I medicate, I fill it halfway to cut my medication cost in half.

[Shan_Evolved]

Welcome Daniel!

Thank you for sharing your story. Unfortunate how dexamethasone really boned you. Can't imagine how difficult it must have been to go through. Staying awake and being unable to focus with a unhealthy dose of anxiety is rough. We're glad you got through it! Glad your wife and kids are okay.

Also very nice work with the stand and plan. You have the perfect mixture of awe and work ethic to truly appreciate the beauty that is discus. You are in for a ride. Mine are now finally becoming adults and they are stunning. I cannot wait to show everyone my tank once it's fully cycled and my discus in their light.

Also I gotta say that lowboy 50 looks sleek af. I would love to have a tank like that. Super unique .

[jeep]

Nice stand and a well thought out plan! I'm particularly impressed that you took the time to read and learn from Shan's thread, as well as others. It shows real interest in learning and being successful in this hobby and that's what this forum is all about!!

[karmicwheel]

Willie - Thanks, that's a good idea. Now to be on the lookout for a cheap 20.

Shan - Yeah, the lowboy is pretty cool. It's a nice tank for keeping the axolotl in, since they don't need a lot of vertical space, but seem to appreciate some horizontal space for exploring.

Brian - I'm a bit of an obsessive reader and gatherer of knowledge. Since I have so little experience myself with discus, I'm trying to learn from other people's experiences as best I can.

So, to continue the story, I started on the stand for the 75 on March 27. I decided to go with a slightly different look than I did with the axolotl tank, which has more of a tabletop look to it. I had some issues with that table top portion not being level and requiring a couple of screws through the top to get it to be level. Good thing there's a tank sitting on top of it so no one can see the screw holes! So rather than a hardwood top, I went with a plywood top with a lip around it. Here's a few pics of the construction:

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And here it is finished and placed (the doors are still on order, and will be installed once I receive them & get them finished)
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After that I got to work filling it with water & getting the filtration set up. For filtration I'm running a Seachem Tidal 110 plus two Hydro Sponge IVs. There's also a Hygger HG-925 heater on it, and a light from Current USA. Some of the lighting features feel a bit gimmicky (especially the speakers that play ambient sounds), but I do like being able to have the moonlight setting on at night, since the room where the tank is gets very dark, and I understand discus don't like being in the complete dark. Here's the tank with water & everything hooked up to it.

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I'm in the middle of cycling the tank now, on day 6. I've been using Dr Tim's ammonium chloride. Currently the filtration is producing some nitrites and nitrates, but still has significant amounts of ammonia. I'd guess I'm 2-3 weeks out from being fully cycled? But, like Shan mentioned in his thread, I won't add fish until the biofilter can eat through roughly 4ppm of ammonia in 24 hours or less.

Of course, this gives me plenty of time to plan out how I'm going to manage 50% water changes daily. The more observant will have noticed a 40 gallon breeder tank inside the stand. This is to be my holding tank. I'm using the python water change system (no way I want to deal with 5 gallon buckets to haul out dirty water & bring in clean). My original plan was to hook the python to my bathroom sink to fill the tank up after a water change. However, I have had a super hard time finding a faucet that will fit the python and the many adapters I've purchased. The faucet (Moen Caldwell for anyone who's interested) seems to have an aerator size that no one makes an adapter for. I'm sure I could go to a plumbing store and figure it out, but I haven't yet. Since the python only fits on my outside spigot, and since the water comes out of that spigot at 60 degrees, I need a place to heat the water up to the 86-88 degrees required before it goes into the tank. I don't have room in my house for a holding tank anywhere, so... 40 gallon breeder under the stand. Again the tank was 50% off from Petco, so felt like a bargain. My plan is to use a regular siphon hose to clean up food and waste from the tank bottom, then use a pump to pump out the remaining water volume to do an approximate 50% water change. Then to refill I'll use the same pump to pump the water from the 40 to the 75. After that I refill the 40 from my outside spigot for the next day's water change. This approach will not be sustainable once the 210 gallon tank is up, but I have bought myself some time to figure out the bathroom faucet issue. I also hate hate hate getting under those small cabinets and doing plumbing work, so any chance I get to push out the inevitable day's worth of cursing and busted knuckles I'll take. Ultimately though, I will have to address large water changes for the 210.

I think that brings us up to date on where I am. Just have to get the tank cycled, and then order discus from Hans.

[Iminit]

Looking good!! I’m not a fan of current lighting. As you stated they are gimmicky and very expensive for what your getting. At a third of the price hygger 957 is a fully programable light that you can run 24/7 with blue at night. Vivagrow are cheaper still and 24/7. Controlled with a remote.

[Shan_Evolved]

I'm using the python water change system (no way I want to deal with 5 gallon buckets to haul out dirty water & bring in clean). My original plan was to hook the python to my bathroom sink to fill the tank up after a water change. However, I have had a super hard time finding a faucet that will fit the python and the many adapters I've purchased. The faucet (Moen Caldwell for anyone who's interested) seems to have an aerator size that no one makes an adapter for. I'm sure I could go to a plumbing store and figure it out, but I haven't yet. Since the python only fits on my outside spigot, and since the water comes out of that spigot at 60 degrees, I need a place to heat the water up to the 86-88 degrees required before it goes into the tank. I don't have room in my house for a holding tank anywhere, so... 40 gallon breeder under the stand. Again the tank was 50% off from Petco, so felt like a bargain. My plan is to use a regular siphon hose to clean up food and waste from the tank bottom, then use a pump to pump out the remaining water volume to do an approximate 50% water change. Then to refill I'll use the same pump to pump the water from the 40 to the 75. After that I refill the 40 from my outside spigot for the next day's water change. This approach will not be sustainable once the 210 gallon tank is up, but I have bought myself some time to figure out the bathroom faucet issue. I also hate hate hate getting under those small cabinets and doing plumbing work, so any chance I get to push out the inevitable day's worth of cursing and busted knuckles I'll take. Ultimately though, I will have to address large water changes for the 210.

I think that brings us up to date on where I am. Just have to get the tank cycled, and then order discus from Hans.

Are you planning on using your 40B as a water aging tank? I would not recommend using the python. It wasted water for no reason. Finding a hose adapter is a pain in the a$$ too.

You can use a simple garden hose, of which many adapters are found that can plug into your showerhead or even a sink - use that to directly fill up the 40B.

Get a pump ($20) on amazon, and use that to move out of the main tank, and then move it below to the 40B to move water into the main tank.


Also, for lighting. All discus, and any fish really, need is a simple night light somewhere in the room to give a bit of lighting. A cheap $5 light that is super dim works fine. I do believe constant blue light does not help the discus sleep properly eventually (dont quote me).

Just my 50c

[karmicwheel]

Shan - yes, the 40G will effectively be a water aging tank. In my case it's more a heating tank, since I don't need to age the water. My parameters are stable here.

As for the python, I have one already. I won't be using the siphon into my sink while running the water feature. I agree that it seems quite a waste of water. And I'll be using enough water as it is. I have a pump already (Hygger 660 GPH model) that I'll use for the bulk of the water moving. Then the python hooked up to my outside spigot to refill, and the siphon attachment (into a bucket) for cleaning the detritus out of the tank. I got the python mostly so I could hook it up to my sink faucet for refilling, but so far I've been stymied by the size of the aerator.

As for the light, it's configurable so I can change the color spectrum and intensity, so I'll stick with it for now. Probably won't use that brand on the 210 when I set it up.

[Iminit]

The hygger can change the color and spectrum. You can also do this on a time limit adjusting differently for 24hrs. The vivagrow is like the current. I have all 3. Hygger is the newest and so far the best.

[Shan_Evolved]

Well awesome.

If you dont have microbubbles and your water doesn't need to age, you are good to go man! Cant wait to see

[karmicwheel]

Shan - I've got a question for you. You're doing a fishless cycle on your 125G, right? At some point during the use of ammonia to start the cycle, do you have to do a water change? I'm on day 7, and my readings are 2.0-4.0 ppm ammonia, 2.0 ppm nitrite, and 40 ppm nitrate. When the current amount of ammonia is processed, there will be an awful lot of nitrates in my tank, so I'm assuming I have to do a big water change, but the instructions I have for using ammonia assume that the tank will be fully cycled within 9 days, which clearly it won't be.

[Shan_Evolved]

I do a water change on mine when Nitrates get above what I can read. And I only change 50%. Since I started cycling some 4 weeks ago I've only done 3 water changes to be honest.

Some things important to note during fishless cycling -

1) Do not add more ammonia until your Ammonia AND Nitrites are 0 or near 0. Adding in more Ammonia will not let the Nitrate colony build fast enough to keep up leading to too much nitrite. I saw a speech by some doc I think it was Novahek (sorry spelling) that talked about nitrate bacteria taking double the time to multiple than nitrite ones.

2) Check your KH levels (not just your PH.) Your water NEEDS at least 2-4KH for the cycle to establish a cycle. Going through high ppms of ammonia and nitrite use up a lot of the alkalinity or something. PH will drop as KH drops and that can lead to PH crash as well as cycling stall.

I'm not sure how high nitrates can be before it becomes troublesome but I personally don't like doing 100% water changes - - takes too long so I just do 50% when needed to make nitrates legible on the chart. I will do 2x 50% the day before my fish go into the water

[karmicwheel]

Thanks, I appreciate the info. I'll check KH this morning to make sure it hasn't dropped too far. Water from the tap has a KH of 7, so hopefully I'm still OK.

My long term plan is to be able to do 50% water changes (hence the 40G holding tank for the 75G) daily. And I'll wait til ammonia and nitrites drop to 0 before adding any more ammonia. The Dr Tim plan I was following had me adding ammonia on Day 1, Day 3 and Day 6, which I did. I've tried to keep the overall ammonia under 4 ppm, so I didn't add as much as they suggested. Their plan also calls for adding the fish on Day 9, so I think I'll just throw out the plan and go with the Shan 2 step plan above. :)

[Shan_Evolved]

Every tank, every bio load, every bacteria is different.

I dislike plans that estimate how long it would take or how often you should put ammonia or other time based plans into effect.

The goal is to get Ammonia and Nitrites to 0 with 24h no matter the length it takes. Put 4ppm ammonia, put some seeded material, some surface area for the bacteria to grow on, and then wait for all of that to turn into nitrates. After that just keep adding ammonia until that process becomes 24h. :)

[karmicwheel]

The doors arrived on Friday, so Saturday I stained and finished them. This morning I installed them on the stand, so now all I have left to do is wait for the tank to finish cycling.

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My ammonia levels have dropped to 0 but I still have nitrites. It reads as 2.0 or 5.0, can't tell from the card since to my eyes the two values look the same. Similar problem with the nitrates, which are either 40 or 80. But the cycle is moving, which is good. pH is holding steady at 8. KH is about 3. Out of the tap its 6-7, so there's definitely been a drop. I guess I'll need to do a water change before the KH drops much further.

[Shan_Evolved]

Nice! Glad you saw the drop in KH. If you had 4KH in your tap, imagine the problems you would have had.

If there are people reading this post, MEASURE YOUR KH WHEN YOU CYCLE!!!

Daniel, your setup is looking fantastic. They are gonna grow out so fast!

Some things to consider -, there's a tidal filter upgrade video on my thread somewhere recent, it would be good to do that now while its still clean. A prefilter sponge on the intake of the tidal is also a necessity IMO. Also, have you added a lift tube inside of the sponges? It helps pull water further down the sponges

[karmicwheel]

Shan - thanks, I hope you're right! I've done all the easy parts (well, except for waiting for the tank to cycle, that part is hard if you're a bit impatient). So I hope that when I do get the fish everything goes well! I'm very much looking forward to placing my order with Hans. I know exactly what I want, I just have to wait.

It does feel like the cycle has stalled a bit, possibly because of the KH dropping. My nitrite levels have been at around 2.0 ppm for the last 2 days, so I'll do a water change today & see if that starts things up again.

Thanks for the video recommendation, I'll check it out today. I have lift tubes on the outside of the sponges, but not on the inside. I'll look into that.

[Shan_Evolved]

Give it time. Nitrites will stay high for awhile. Days to weeks even. I've had my nitrites go above 5ppm and just waited until it all converted. Doing water changes is not a good idea. You WANT high nitrites while cycling. It's SO important to give it time to feed the nitrate bacteria so they can develop. P A T I E N C E

I hate to keep nagging but from my own mistakes and how bad the littel things ended up hurting me I highly recommend you be patient with the cycle.

Also, Hans is going through some stuff. Not sure when he will be able to ship out again. Golden State Discus 3.5" is a great size to get as well though 40-60 a fish. Hans can still be good but I would check in with his injury

[karmicwheel]

I'd heard a bit that Hans had something he was dealing with, and his webpage (https://discusfishstore.com/) mentions being closed for a bit due to Doctor's orders. I certainly hope he's alright.

Since I have to wait for the tank to cycle anyway (patience, patience), I can wait for Hans to get better.

[karmicwheel]

I'm still waiting for the tank to cycle, testing the water parameters daily. And with Shan's input, also testing the KH daily. Here's some things I've noticed.

The KH out of my tap is 6. This means that the KH in my tank was, at one point, also 6. This morning I measured it at 3. On April 15 the KH in the tank was 5. So the process of cycling is causing the KH to drop.

The pH of my tap water is 8. In the tank, this is also what I've measured the pH to be. Until the KH drops to around 3, then the pH starts edging down a bit. This morning I believe it was around 7.9. It wasn't quite to the color of 7.8 according to the API chart, but it was no longer solidly 8 either. So there's a correlation between pH, KH and the nitrogen cycle in aquariums (see Shan's post #16 mentioning this). It's nice to have data to back up other's assertions, since I'm not a chemist in any way. pH crashes being (from what I've read) a Very Bad Thing when keeping discus, this will require watching carefully.

In my prior fishkeeping experience, I only ever paid attention to ammonia & nitrites in the beginning of the cycle, and then nitrates after that. I never measured pH or KH before. So I'm learning stuff in droves, and I don't even have the fish yet!

[Willie]

I recommend that you take water samples, fresh out of the tap and after conditioning for 24 hours, to a local fish store and have them run the analyses. There's no reason why KH can drop unless you're mixing in R/O water. They run samples constantly so the reagents are fresh.

[karmicwheel]

Hey Willie - from what I was just reading, nitrite and nitrate are acidic, and the KH is buffering that acidity & getting used up in the process. Since I'm cycling the tank right now, I have high levels of both, though the nitrites have finally begun to drop. I expect them to be 0 in the morning. So given that, and coupled with what Shan said a few posts ago, I'm not surprised that the KH in the tank is less than the KH from my tap, or from my aging tank.

My testing kits are all new, especially the KH and GH tests, which I've only had a couple months.

[Willie]

So nitrite and nitrate are not acidic. They are anions, but acidity is measured solely by hydrogen ion concentration. Neither NO2- nor NO3- has hydrogen. Secondly, conditioning is just a degassing process. It does not affect KH.

[Shan_Evolved]

I am also experiencing significant KH drop after dosing ammonia a couple of times in my 125 (no water changes). I have had to add multiple tsp of baking soda to bring it back up so nitrites can do down.

I forgot to check one day and came home to 5ppm nitrite instead of 0 while cycling. I added some baking soda and within 12 hrs my nitrites were gone

[karmicwheel]

Quick update: The tank is going through 4 ppm of ammonia in 24 hrs. It's not yet getting through the nitrites though. Right now, the nitrites get to 0 in about 48 hrs. I will continue to be patient with the cycling process. Maybe a week?

[Shan_Evolved]

I also experienced this. Nitrites take a lot longer to go down than my ammonia did. Don't lose patience. Just keep doing what you're doing until it's fully cycled. You got this.

[karmicwheel]

This will be my last update for a while. When I started this tank journal, I promised to detail the good and bad. At the time, I expected the bad to be about mistakes I made with the fish, or illness, or tank problems. Unfortunately, the bad in this case is much more serious.

If you recall from my first post, I talked about my experiences with being diagnosed with COVID-19 pneumonia. Unfortunately, that diagnosis was incorrect. Instead, I have lung cancer. With the treatments that are coming, I will not have time to maintain a discus tank, so I will be shutting down this tank for a while, until I am recovered enough to contemplate keeping discus again. I have really enjoyed reading this forum, and interacting with some folks here, and I hope one day to be back on this forum, talking about the need to be patient while cycling the fishtank to start keeping discus. Until then, I may pop by to check on other's tank journals. Thank you all for the help you gave me as I was setting this up initially.

[tacks]

Good luck Ed

[Shan_Evolved]

Go kick cancers *** my man. We will always be here

[karmicwheel]

Well, after talking with doctors and my wife and kids, and carefully considering whether or not getting discus at this particular time in my life is stupid or not, I went ahead and ordered 8 juvenile discus today anyway. My tank is fully cycled, I built the stand myself, it's just sitting there waiting, and my wife & kids have agreed to help with the tank chores if I am not always able to do the cleaning. However, the treatments that the drs believe will be likely for my case are pill based and well tolerated, unlike traditional chemotherapy and radiation therapy. So in the grand spirit of optimism and of having something pretty to look at during this journey, I ordered the following from Discus Hans:

2 Alenquer
2 Brilliant Turquoise
2 German Wonder
2 Red Scribbelt

All 2.5 inch size. I am excited! and maybe a little nervous!

[Willie]

It's gonna be a lot of fun watching them grow!

[Iminit]

Good news across the board! Hey it’s always best to be busy!! Good luck and waiting for pics!

[seanyuki]

Have a look at Willie’s discus from Hans, he got got these 2+ months ago at 3 ins and fed them with high quality food and 100% water changes daily and the outcome came out excellent.


http://youtu.be/rXsDP9eR2wI



Well, after talking with doctors and my wife and kids, and carefully considering whether or not getting discus at this particular time in my life is stupid or not, I went ahead and ordered 8 juvenile discus today anyway. My tank is fully cycled, I built the stand myself, it's just sitting there waiting, and my wife & kids have agreed to help with the tank chores if I am not always able to do the cleaning. However, the treatments that the drs believe will be likely for my case are pill based and well tolerated, unlike traditional chemotherapy and radiation therapy. So in the grand spirit of optimism and of having something pretty to look at during this journey, I ordered the following from Discus Hans:

2 Alenquer
2 Brilliant Turquoise
2 German Wonder
2 Red Scribbelt

All 2.5 inch size. I am excited! and maybe a little nervous!

[karmicwheel]

Willie grows great fish.

[karmicwheel]

Real quick update, since technically I'm at work.

My order from Hans arrived this morning. They seem to be doing OK so far. All 8 are schooling together and exploring the tank. I've got the lights out right now, just to give them time to acclimate. I'll attempt a feeding a little later.

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[johnlfc]

Looks like were both at pretty much the same point in journey Daniel as I today loaded my first 8 Marlboro Reds into my 3ft grow out. Will be following along to see how you fare. I'm following stendker advice regarding water changes and feeding there own food, goodheart.

[karmicwheel]

Well the fish have been in the tank for 5 days now. All are eating, they school together well. The water changes and tank cleaning so far have gone smoothly. One of the Turquoise fish is starting to show a bit of color.

My original plan was to have 14 fish, but the cancer diagnosis changed that plan a bit so I only bought eight from Hans. But then we got some good news, in that the cancer shows a particular genetic mutation that allows them to treat it with a daily pill (sometimes called "oral chemo") that has few side effects, so I am back to my original plan of fourteen. I've ordered 6 more from Hans, they will be here Wednesday.

The additions are:
2 Checkerboard
2 Pigeon Snakeskin
2 Tefe

Here's a couple pics:

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[Willie]

Keep up the water changes and they'll grow into big discus in no time, Willie

[Shan_Evolved]

I'm glad you were able to start. Looks very promising and god bless your family and kids for helping.

Keep up the good work and enjoy the fishies.

[karmicwheel]

Thanks Willie & Shan. Today they ate the beefheart out of my fingers. They get excited when they see me come towards the tank, so I know they recognize me as a food source now.

[Iminit]

Discus look great! Now the fun begins! Hans discus do grow big nice choices. I too have some of those :).

[karmicwheel]

Another quick update. The final 6 arrived from Hans today, and they are doing well so far. Still adapting of course, and a little stressed from the journey, but most of them ate within an hour of being added to the tank. Here's a shot that I think has all 14 in it.

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[Iminit]

Congrats! So small!! Good luck growing them out and enjoy!! Lots of food and water changes .

[karmicwheel]

So far I'm doing 50% water changes daily. And they are ready to eat all the time. They seem to really like the Cobalt Discus Hans flake food, and they eat about half of the frozen beef heart cube. They aren't so much a fan of the vibra bites or of the Hikari frozen discus food. I'll keep giving them that stuff so they get used to eating a varied diet.

[karmicwheel]

I have one fish from the new batch who is a little unhappy. If I thought he was just stressed I'd leave him be, but he has a white spot on his tail fin and some on his lower and upper fins that is a bit concerning. Could be ich I suppose, or it could be some kind of fungus? Here's a pic. It doesn't look quite like ich to me, anyone have an idea of what it is?

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[danotaylor]

Daniel how did you acclimate your new arrivals? The causal & anal fin looks a little like ammonia burns. If you add tank water to transported fish and raise the pH suddenly ammonia burns can happen, which can cause stress and result in discus pimples also, which is what the white dots look like. Good clean water and 3tbsp salt per 10gal will correct it.

[karmicwheel]

I acclimated them according to Hans' instructions. Added tank water to the transport bag so there was a 50/50 mix and let the fish sit for 5-10 minutes. I just double checked my params and I'm at 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and less than 5ppm nitrate in my tank, and the pH is steady at 8. Are you saying the ammonia burns could have come from the transport bag? or that nitrates were high in the transport bag and this is just a reaction?

Add aquarium salt and keep up my daily water changes and this should clear up?

Thanks for the info so far.

[Iminit]

Ok this does happen. Some discus will get these pimples from stress,water quality or other reasons. Of my Hans discus one does get those pimples. Should go away in a few days with water changes.

[danotaylor]

During transportation in a small quantity of water ammonia is released through the fishes respiration which is generally increased during the stress of shipping. The bag water pH gradually drops below 7 making the ammonia present in the bags less or even non-toxic. When you add tank water to the bag, especially alkaline water such as yours, the ammonia concentration in the bag quickly becmes toxic and can burn the fishes fins, gills and disrupt the protective slime coat. Ammonia is more toxic in water w pH >7.
Most folks here acclimate temperature only by floating bags, then remove the fish and plop it straight in. The stress of a 1 time sudden pH change is far less damaging to the fish than being in a bag with toxic ammonia even for 10-15 minutes.
Its most likely not connected to nitrates in this situation.. Salt and clean water will help for sure.

[karmicwheel]

I did a water change and added aquarium salt, but unfortunately it didn't help. I lost that fish at about 9:00pm last night. The remaining 13 are all doing well. I'll be continuing on with daily water changes and lots of feedings.

[danotaylor]

Sorry to hear mate

[Iminit]

Wow sorry to here this!!

Dan I’ve thought that for a long time and have always done my version of drop and plop. But with the discus I just got from Dennis discus his instructions were to slowly add water to the bag after temp matching. I did it his way and all 4 were fine. I think it’s about how long the fish are in the bag. If you remember back a few months ago I was moving discus from one tank to another and a pair of blues did not like the move. Though mine were bigger one of my looked just like Dans. Fins closed and the white pimples. But it was back to normal after 3 days and 2 water changes. Thought that’s what would happen here. Kinda surprised it died!

[karmicwheel]

It happened fast enough that I don't think there was going to be anything I could do. But on the bright side the remaining 13 are doing quite well. They're even getting to the point where they appear to enjoy the water change, swimming through the stream of new water being pumped in from the aging/heating tank. They may also know that I feed them as soon as the water change is done. Overall, the grow out tank is going well, and I believe the fish have gotten larger in the week and a half that I've had them.

Enjoying the water change:
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[karmicwheel]

The remaining 13 are doing well. The turquoise color is starting to emerge for several of the fish.

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It's hard to get a picture with this group, cause as soon as I come anywhere near the tank they come straight up to me and beg for food. Even if I've just fed them. They eat a lot, and seem to prefer the Cobalt Discus Hans flake food over any other. That food is completely consumed, whereas with the beef heart (or as my son calls it, "bee farts") there's always some left over on the bottom. Same with the Vibra Bites and Hikari frozen Discus food.

[karmicwheel]

And then there were 12. I got up this morning and found one of the fish had managed to jump out of the tank. I believe it was the other tefe. There is a narrow gap where the HOB filter is that it could have jumped out through, though it is a very small gap.

[AndyW]

Daniel
I am so sorry.
Andy

[karmicwheel]

Thanks Andy.

Something is going on in my tank. I now have three fish that are hiding, have gone a bit dark, and one of them occasionally darts around the tank.

I will move the three of them to a quarantine tank, but I don't know yet what I'm dealing with so I'm not sure what, if any, treatment to apply. I'd appreciate any suggestions.

[karmicwheel]

I lost two more fish overnight. They both started darting around the tank occasionally, and hiding. I moved them to a quarantine tank, and in the absence of any actual diagnosis, treated them with API General Cure. Unsuccessfully. Two other fish had started doing the hiding thing, so I moved them into the QT as well. Both of them seem to be fine this morning, but neither of them had the darting behavior of the first two. I've got another fish in my main tank that is also hiding, so I will probably move him to QT as well.

[Iminit]

Ok what is your routine with these discus? How often are you water changing and how much and what are you feedin?

[karmicwheel]

I change 50% of their water daily. They are in a 75 gallon bare bottom tank. Ammonia, Nitrite both 0, Nitrate is always less than 5 ppm. pH has been steady at 8.

Their primary food is the Cobalt Discus Hans flake, which they eat voraciously. I also give them frozen beef heart, the brand is San Francisco Bay. They eat that as well, but they leave about half the cube behind.

[Iminit]

All good! I’m almost wondering could it be a cross contamination? The second set weren’t quarantined? I know they came from the same place but something got in there. Maybe more to cc. Like the old fish had a head start in the tank and adjusted to your water together but the new guy as they adjust to your water also have to deal with the existing discus and the stress could be to much. The first guy you showed looked like stress. Can you put up some pics of the other sick guys?

[karmicwheel]

They look fine until all the sudden they dart around the tank at high speed and collide into things. No fin clamping, no going dark. They're in QT with no lights right now, so pics will be challenging. It's also been a mix of the first batch and new batch that have died.

What's disturbing to me is it seems to be spreading, which is why I am treating it with General Cure.

[Iminit]

All good! I’m almost wondering could it be a cross contamination? The second set weren’t quarantined? I know they came from the same place but something got in there. Maybe more to cc. Like the old fish had a head start in the tank and adjusted to your water together but the new guy as they adjust to your water also have to deal with the existing discus and the stress could be to much. The first guy you showed looked like stress. Can you put up some pics of the other sick guys?

[karmicwheel]

Cross contamination is certainly possible. I set up a QT and moved a total of 6 fish into it. 2 didn't make it, the remaining 4 seem to be doing well. I never had more than 4 fish in the QT at any one time.

After I had 4 in the QT, another fish in my main tank started darting around, so I just gave up and medicated the main tank too. It's a day behind the QT.

Both tanks have no lights on them at the moment, and I've reduced feeding quite a bit to prevent any feeding aggression until everyone seems like they're doing better.

So far, the remaining 10 fish seem to be doing well, no more zooming around the tank and crashing into the side. One in my main tank is still hiding, though it's not dark nor is it clamping its fins. Here's the best pic I could get.

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Overall, I'm cautiously optimistic that the worst is past, and that I'll come out of this with all of the remaining 10.

[Iminit]

What I you treating with?

[karmicwheel]

API General Cure

[karmicwheel]

Well, it's been a while since I updated this thread. What ended up happening over the ensuing months is that every fish but one died. They all went the same way. They would start darting around the tank or darting in a circle, crash into something, and then die a day or so later. Whatever it was definitely spread between all the fish, as I would lose one or two a week. I am now left with one fish, who has survived all the disease, but is now on his own and probably a little stressed out. I sterilized my 75 gallon tank and all the equipment in it, and am nearing the end of cycling it again. I will try one more time with discus, so I will be ordering some more probably after Christmas. I'm also in process on the stand for the 210 gallon tank I have waiting. It's cold here though, so gluing and finishing will be a challenge.

As for me, the treatment I'm on has been stunningly successful, and I am now No Evidence of Disease, the best a person with Stage IV cancer can hope for.

[LizStreithorst]

Damn Daniel. Why didn't you tell us? Listen, the death of the fish is nothing compared to not being able to try again because you're dead. I'm overjoyed over your great news. I'm old and have a bad diagnosis but I do my best to take all the joy I can from every day I have left.

Let us know when the new fish arrive. Pics, videos and lots of text to read, please.

[karmicwheel]

Thanks Liz. I let this thread languish mostly because I forgot about it for a little while as I dealt with all the sh*t I had to deal with regarding my health. But all is good for now, the treatment has been very successful. Though, in the words of my oncologist, cancer is the type of thing that likes to come back.

I will update this thread when the fish arrive.

[Iminit]

So good to hear about your health! Hoping it can’t find its way back!

Strange what happened to your discus. Sounds like whirling disease. But I’ve never heard of it going from one fish to the next. Could it have been a Parasite of some type? Or could it have been something in the tank leaching into the water? Do you have a uv sterilizer in the tank? Are there other fish in the tank now?

[karmicwheel]

Thanks Tom. That is our hope too.

It looked a lot like whirling disease, except for it spread. My best guess was a parasite, but I treated with Metro and Prazi with no success.

The tank got sterilized and I'm using different filtration. Right now it's empty and in the process of cycling.

[LizStreithorst]

Daniel, I'm in the process of sterilizing tanks and cycling tanks myself. After I get them clean and free of chlorine I immediately add fish and dose with Stability. I've already moved 2 pairs of Discus, a large group of Black Rams, a smaller group of Gold Rams, and a pair of Black Rams. Everything is going well the first tanks will get their final Stability dose tomorrow. I highly recommend this product. Much easier and less time consuming than a fishless cycle.

BTW, I'm not doing this due to a disease outbreak. I just got sick to death of fighting the stubborn hair algae that has transferred to all my tanks. Also, I'm dealing with the dread duck weed. It's so much easier to kill it with Clorox than to spend hours on end scooping it out. I learned a lesson about not treating new plants when I get them in. You never know what tiny bit of this or that are on them because you just can't spot a single leaf of duck weed.

[karmicwheel]

Well the tank is cycled (again) and I have placed my order with Hans (again). We'll see how this attempt goes.

[LizStreithorst]

Fingers crossed, Daniel.

[Charlyc11]

Hans is getting a new shipment on the 28th for all concern. When I was there last week he was wiped out on adult discus somebody had purchased a large lot from him.

[karmicwheel]

I ordered all juvenile fish, and they are arriving tomorrow by 1:00pm MST. I'll post pics once I get them acclimated and in the tank.

[karmicwheel]

So far so good. All 15 arrived safely yesterday and are in the tank. Initially several were very stressed and spent some time laying on their sides on the bottom, but this morning everyone was up and swimming, and while they are still clearly skittish, no one is obviously stressed. Here's a pic of all of them:

132384

I ordered the following from Hans:

4 Brilliant Turquoise
4 German Wonder
4 Checkerboard
3 Tefe

[LizStreithorst]

NIce selection!

[Iminit]

Nice!! Good luck with them!! I see many water changes in your future :).

[karmicwheel]

Indeed. I'm doing the first one right now. Plan is to do 50% water changes daily. They are still settling in, and get spooked easily. They have eaten, and seem to really like the freeze dried black worms. They picked at the beef heart, but didn't eat much of it.

[karmicwheel]

The first week plus has gone very well with the new fish. All are still healthy, all eat well, no signs of any distress. When I put the FDBW in the tank, most of them will eat it out of my hand before I stick it to the side of the tank. There are two that tend to hang back & eat the worms that get pulled out of the cubes. I am about to do the Praziquantel portion of Al's quarantine procedure. Overall I am much happier with how things are going this time around.

Here's some random pics taken during a water change.
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[Iminit]

Instead of the cubes I use the loose worms. I soak them in a cup so they sink. This sends worms all over the tank and removes the aggression at the cube.

[karmicwheel]

How long do you have to soak them before they sink?

[Iminit]

Just a minute.

[Charlyc11]

Beautiful looking fish enjoy them.

[karmicwheel]

Thanks.

I'm a little behind, but I started the prophylactic PraziPro as per Al's Quarantine procedure. In a few days I'll need to do the general deworming. Al's procedure specifies levamisole. I have Wormer Plus, which is Flubendazole. Can I substitute Flubendazole or should I stick with levamisole?

[mleibowi]

Thanks.

I'm a little behind, but I started the prophylactic PraziPro as per Al's Quarantine procedure. In a few days I'll need to do the general deworming. Al's procedure specifies levamisole. I have Wormer Plus, which is Flubendazole. Can I substitute Flubendazole or should I stick with levamisole?

I use flubendazole. It works well and my fish tolerated it fine.

[seanyuki]

Depends what kind of worms you are eliminating.

Tapeworms(cestodes)......Praziquantel
Round worms(nematodes).....Levamisole, Flubendazole, Fenbendazole
Hexamita /Spironucleus (not a worm but a parasitic flagellate).....Metronidazole
Camallanus (nematodes) Levamisole
Capillaria (nematodes) levamisole or fenbendazole

[karmicwheel]

Just have time for a quick update. This attempt is going so much better than the previous one. All the fish are still alive and seem to be thriving. I'll post more photos later. I've done the Praziquantel. I've also just added the first dose of levimasole to the tank and am watching the fish for any sign of distress. So far so good. I'll post some pics in a bit.

[karmicwheel]

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[pastry]

Daniel,
I definitely wanted to commend you on doing this thread! These are the types that help folks new to discus AND I personally LOVE a single, long going thread on anyone's tank & discus. You've got a ton of awesome folks following (and supporting) and keep going, boss!

V/R
Elliot

[karmicwheel]

Thanks Elliot.

Brief update: I had three fish that were always hanging back and not a part of the main school, particularly at feeding time. One of those three died. I didn't really notice anything that would have made me think there was an issue. No fin clamping, didn't turn dark, just hung back. He was also the smallest of the fish in this order, more like 2 inches than 2 1/2.

So I am down to 14 fish, and I'm watching the others for signs of any illness, but I don't see anything alarming. The other two that also hung back still do that if they're startled, but they do swim with the main school as well. So for now, I think the remaining 14 are healthy. I will do another levimasole dose over the weekend.