Need another set of eyes to confirm I am doing the right thing

[For100]

Hi all,

Here is the story.... I am looking for a second opinion on next steps as I don't want to lose him.

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

Large 6+ years old Cobalt male from Kenny/Forrest. I know he is past his prime years, but his health has been steadily declining for the last few months. I noticed he was thinner than my other fish, tried to hand feed him for awhile, not much success (what a surprise!). I moved him to a hospital tank about 3 weeks ago, raised temp to 86 and start using salt (around 1 Tbs per 10 gallons). Hoping he would come around, he has not improved much.


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

He is wasting away slowly.... Pinched forehead and body. No color change: he is light blue with red eyes, comes to the front of the tank asking for food but he doesn't eat much. I tried live black worms as to recovery food, I have seen him pick from the bottom but not sure if he eats them. You can see he spit food after taking a bit.

3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

I moved him to a hospital tank about 3 weeks ago, raised temp to 86 and start using salt (around 1 Tbs per 10 gallons). Hoping he would come around, he has not improved much.


Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.

He is on a hospital tank: 29 gallon bare bottom.
But he was previously on a 270 gallon show tank with another 13 discus and about 10 cory as bottom feeders.


5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).

25% to 50% daily water changes using aged water + small quantity of show tank water, siphon bottom dirt and leftovers

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

He is on a hospital tank: 29 gallon bare bottom. Running a canister filter for the last 3 weeks

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

Yes, I have two 40 gallon barrels where I age my water for at least 24hrs. Not sure about the pH swing

8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?

I use activated carbon and sediment filter to remove chlorine and chloramines from municipal water source.

9. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp 86

- ph ~7.2

- ammonia reading 0

- nitrite reading 0

- nitrate reading 5-10ppm

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water 90%

- RO water 10%


10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

No

11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.

Showtank
Suckers don't eat dry food. ;(
Only feed them frozen food: beef heart, discus mix, brine shrimp and blood worms.
Feeding regiment: 3 or 4 times a day, enough to have them consume everything within 1 or 2min


Sick fish
Try few live black worms morning and afternoon and brine shrimp right around noon.




12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

I will post a picture tomorrow when I have better sunlight


Appreciate in advance any ideas or guidance.... I don't want to lose him, but I am afraid he might be just old and he is dying of old age.

FR

[dspeers]

Given the lack of improvement, might try a couple of things empirically as your expected outcome at this point without improvement is terminal.
1. Would try a clean out with epsom salt first
2. Next try orange peel which can stimulate appetite. http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?127932-Discus-not-eating-Orange-Peel-as-an-Appetite-Stimulant&highlight=orange+peel
(either 1 or 2 could be done first as they are both essentially risk free interventions)
3. If that fails, my next step would be a course of metronidazole.
4. Lastly would consider treating for parasitic worms but that seems very unlikely given no other fish are showing symptoms and usually they suffer from wt loss more than anorexia.

As an aside why do you rely on AC to remove chlorine/chloramine vs using a dechlor like seachem safe?

[Iminit]

Pictures will help. As for temp go to 88 and add 2 tbs salt per 10g. What is the temp of the show tank. Have you ever dewormed your fish? If not as getting older the worms may be getting worse.

[For100]

@ Don and Immit,

Thanks for chiming in, always good to hear a second opinion,

Don questions:

1- Not sure about the epsom salt, i don’t see any white long stringy feces at this point. When he ate black worms, I saw few normal black feces (very few to be honest)
2- I might try the orange peal, but I will start with garlic extract, I have had luck with garlic and picky eaters.
3- I think metro is the next logic step, 500mg per 10 gallons and raise temp to 90F. Keep salt treatment with 50% daily water changes.

As for your last question, I use AC as it is effective and cheaper than using water conditioning. I have never had an issue with AC filtered water in 20+ years of fish keeping, cross my fingers now that i said that.

Iminit questions

I attached a couple of pictures to this thread. I have been using table salt for the last 3 week and temp to 86 to increase appetite in the hospital tank.
My show tank runs at 82/83F, half of my stock is “mature” fish without any sign of worm issues. I don’t rule out flat worms or capillaria, but i think it is unlikely that would only affect one fish out of 13 + knowing 5 are about the same age.


How about this?

I will start with metro for 10 days (500mg per 10 gallons and raise temp to 90F. Keep salt treatment with 50% daily water changes.). Wait for 7 days and monitor improvement. If no improvement, I am open to treat for internal flat worms.
What pros/cons do you foresee if I go this route?

Thanks

FR

131517

131518

[seanyuki]

Only microscope analysis of the feces can tell if it is hexamita. metronidazole is not for treatment of internal worms. It is mainly used for internal flagellates.

[For100]

Thanks Francis,

Agree, I am looking to treat hex before going the worm route with praziquantel or any equivalent (I have not dewormed any fish in years)

Thoughts?


Only microscope analysis of the feces can tell if it is hexamita. metronidazole is not for treatment of internal worms. It is mainly used for internal flagellates.

[seanyuki]

Imo try the heat treatment….What I read Raise temperature to 35 degree celsius for 7 days to treat Hexamitosis ( Sprronucleosis) by Dr. Edward J. Noga, MS, DVM, is a highly respected professor of aquatic medicine and immunology.Page 193
Remember that warmer water carries less oxygen, so be sure to
use extra aeration (surface water turbulence) when using high heat.

[dspeers]

I agree given the background, risk of parasitic worms very very low. Hex, somewhat higher but not all that much. Would still try the no risk interventions first, garlic/orange/MgSO4. Also agree that Mg probably a WOT but clean out won't hurt and just might help. Would try for 3 days then quit, can use with ongoing NaCl. Since I have chloramine rather than chlorine AC worries me.

[bluelagoon]

I Since I have chloramine rather than chlorine AC worries me.
You're correct.

AC does not remove ammonia (that's in chloramine), nor nitrite or nitrate.

[For100]

Thank you All,

I will keep you posted in about a week time. Fingers crossed!

[For100]

@BlueLagoon
Interesting observation (good learning for me). if AC does not remove chloramines, will aging water for 24+hrs eliminate any residue of it?

[seanyuki]

Aging the water for 24 hrs will not remove chloramine, you need dechlorination agent to remove chlorine and chloramine.


@BlueLagoon
Interesting observation (good learning for me). if AC does not remove chloramines, will aging water for 24+hrs eliminate any residue of it?

[Iminit]

Looking at the pics. I’m with the fish is old. I’m not a beef heart fan and only feed bloodworm once to twice a week. As for live blackworms I’d never use them and if he’s not tearing into them there’s something else going on. My reason for worms was maybe a tapeworm. Can’t hurt to try the prazi if you get no results with the salt and heat. Tape worm could have been there for years.

[dspeers]

With sufficient agitation you will remove chlorine in 24 hours even without AC. Also AC does not bind either chlorine or chloramine to my understanding but rather oxidizes either, in both cases releasing Chloride ion and with chloramine releasing both the chloride ion and ammonia which then is metabolized via the Nitrogen cycle (but that reaction is slower than chlorine breakdown). The concern is whether there is sufficient AC to get that done within the storage tank's timeline. I assumed FR was periodically testing and has had no issues for lots of years, of course in a smaller hospital tank with potentially higher % water changes any residual chloramine might be at a higher concentration.

[For100]

Tapeworms is a possibility… Given where he is at, if I don’t get any improvements in the next two weeks it would not hurt treat for worms. At the end he will die eventually if nothing is done as Don mentioned earlier. So, I have nothing to lose if I treat for worms down the road, just feel it is not my first impression just now.

It would ideal if I had the knowledge and a microscope to evaluate feces as Francis suggested. I am not quite there yet. :D

QUOTE=Iminit;1357945]Looking at the pics. I’m with the fish is old. I’m not a beef heart fan and only feed bloodworm once to twice a week. As for live blackworms I’d never use them and if he’s not tearing into them there’s something else going on. My reason for worms was maybe a tapeworm. Can’t hurt to try the prazi if you get no results with the salt and heat. Tape worm could have been there for years.[/QUOTE]