Afghanistan

[pastry]

I don't post nor engage into (4) subjects without hesitance:
1. Religion
2. Sexual orientation
3. Race
4. Political affiliation

This thread falls into none of them. If at all else, this is a thread for any veterans to vent. I am slightly messed up in the head right now due to knowing the only way we would've achieved victory is through occupation... of 3-4 generations. The US "Leaders" (NOT Biden, Trump, Obama, Bush... all of them plus congressmen, senators, & general officers) did not educate our nation on what it'd take. Do not blame this on a party.

"What we've learned from history... is that we haven't learned from history."

These 13 service members who died were but babies (if that) when it began. Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan would've been won via true occupation... or we should have left alone altogether so our veterans didn't give in vain. We're a great country (along with our allies) when we're honest about what it'll take... prior to inserting ourselves (occupation of 3-4 generations).

If you're a prior vet of those conflicts, DO NOT think for 1 second that you & your brethren gave in vain. Suicide is B.S. -- speak up, instead. Stick around to prevent anymore short wars... because all 4 of those were short, mismanaged conflicts and created even more enemies... but not because of us.

PM me if you need to talk.

S/F
Elliot

[bluelagoon]

The mission was to get Osama bin Laden and was completed years ago. We just stayed a little too long. That place will always be hundreds of years in the sticks and probably never will be part of the so called free world. Great to see us leaving. Although I do pity the women and girls who have to be treated like pack animals and the shoulders who have life time wounds and loss of life. When and if we go to war there will always be losses.

[pastry]

Agree on everything but one... it wasn't always the sticks. Prior to the Taliban, it looked as "western" as the U.S. (1970s vs Now)
131798

Like you said, though... we were there to get bin Laden. We shouldn't have tried to reverse the tide since we didn't have the stamina to stay as long as needed. Would've been one hell of a strategic position had we stuck it out.

[bluelagoon]

Seems we'll always be after terrorists gangs no matter where they are. Seems it's not quite over yet. It's difficult not to mention religion when you have extremists with such radical Islamic beliefs. We should also clean up our own back yards, cause we even have terrorist groups in our own countries. Plus some of these groups call themselves Christian. Some of those shoulders were too young to pay for the price of war. Can't imagine how their parents feel. On the other hand we can't live with threats and having buildings bombed. Right now the whole world seems crazy and messed up.

[pastry]

" We should also clean up our own back yards, cause we even have terrorist groups in our own countries. Plus some of these groups call themselves Christian."

Spot on!!!!! I like your style, Mervin:thumbsup:

[bluelagoon]

Shame that women's rights aren't equal and is still in the Americas' in places. Might look like Texas in a few years if laws keep going backwards there.

[tacks]

very good ED

[pastry]

Shame that women's rights aren't equal and is still in the Americas' in places. Might look like Texas in a few years if laws keep going backwards there.

Lessons Learned: should've trained only the women. They did more and had nothing short of motivation. The vast majority of men were cowards who portrayed bravado until shot at... hell, not even. I will say that there were a small amount of men that had kahunas. But we should've spent 20 years making a mostly female military & government. "Oh, but you can't expect to come into a country and expect to successfully mold them into a western civilization... we need to understand their culture and pivot from there..." -- ummmm... no. Arm & train women... because they had nothing to lose and were full of piss & vinegar.

We'll never know. ...and back to discus (trying to forget we threw away 20 years, brethren, comrades,... and again, not putting any political party on the spot... it was 20 years worth of politicians & General officers). Holy crap, Georgia
beat Clemson.

[dspeers]

Mervin, how much time have you actually spent in Texas?

[nah]

We have what is the military industrial complex. If there is no war all of the companies that make up the complex go out of business. That was the number one reason for Afghanistan. Profits from selling war machines and young people dying. The largest defense contractors are Boeing, Raytheon, Lockeed-Martin, Northrop-Grumman. No war, no weapons sales the the US government, no stockholders profits because business is down. So there has to be a war somewhere. The question is, what is next? Not, are we done? The South China Sea is next. We are shifting our energy to doing battle with China in the South China Sea. VP Harris recently returned from lengthy meetings with Vietnam. Why? Military bases? `

[bluelagoon]

Mervin, how much time have you actually spent in Texas?

Not a minute in Texas nor Afghanistan! But I watch the news everyday. You don't have to live somewhere to know what goes on any where these days. Actually, I also heard that they try to make it more difficult for their American citizens to vote instead of them trying to make it easier. I can't see how the law makers can justify such actions in their own heads to be honest.

[dspeers]

I would advise you to be less complacent about trusting the veracity of some of your news sources and much less judgmental in the absence of conclusive evidence about what your think is the backwardness of the state and the deficiencies of the lawmakers. You might also ask yourself why there is a net migration away from the bastions of "liberal" ideals, NY, CA, NJ, MD, etc. to such shoddy destinations such as TX and FL. You might also want to consider just how many individuals you have insulted who elected the officials you seem to be sure are incompetent. And yes maybe you would be better served living somewhere or at least doing a little more digging before jumping to what I consider erroneous and insulting conclusions.

[dspeers]

On reflection I am a little more annoyed than I originally realized. The laudable purpose of this particular thread is to reach out to veterans who may be struggling with recent US actions in Afghanistan given the number of both Americans and allies remaining in that country. I find your willingness to conflate that with an opportunity to point out your perceived deficiencies of certain Christian organizations and the state of TX deplorable. Given the issues of abandonment and the subjugation/murder of members of the Afghan civilian population I suggest you focus your attention on Canada's actions or lack thereof regarding Canadian citizens currently detained in Syria or ongoing violence in your Country toward indigenous females. Yes I am a Texan, we are frankly not interested in your opinion. Yes I am a veteran of 30 years and deployment to that region and yes I do feel betrayed by certain recent actions and yes when anyone, American or other decides to compare American shortcomings to fundamentalist Islamic Terrorist atrocities I get angry. Rethink your comments.

[jeep]

This is a homestead forum so it's designed to be a bit out of the traditional forum policies, but we've had requests to tone this down a bit. We would ask that everyone respect Elliot's request and try to avoid politial challenges or anger. Heaven knows there's far too much of that everywhere else these days :angel:

[captainandy]

Wonder what has brought Americans to the point of extreme rage?
Thru most of my like, national and international tragedies, wars etc were met with unity.
This rage is destroying our country. So sad.

[pastry]

Sorry everyone -- I'm usually more careful about posting sensitive issues. I've just been a little torn up about it and (believe it or not) this is the ONLY forum I use for anything ... that combined with wine & fireball one evening (surprise surprise) ended up with me starting this thread. I LOVE this forum due to how good our current moderators have done on balancing #1 everyone's opinion and #2 deciding when to having resort to censorship (which they rarely turn to now and do their best to literally moderate... unrealized MVPs in my book).

Those who've posted... good to hear your thoughts. I may not agree with all shared (a few points in particular), but I'll become unknowingly ignorant if I don't openly hear opinions & thoughts of others (period... meaning, "just listen and see others thoughts"). In the past I've personally berated (in-person... some only 2 inches away) the ever living crap out of some unfortunate few who never saw firsthand what we were doing in different conflicts. It probably made them more defensive of their stances than anything else. But ultimately it's the Government's responsibility to educate the entire country on #1 mission (with concrete definition of success) while #2 being honest on realistic effort (especially TIME... we all knew unimaginable money, devastating deaths/wounded/mental damages, etc.... but TIME it'd take was a "fail" re: educating our country).

End state: We have our good, our bad, and our ugly as a country... but after experiencing about 25+ countries in my life, I can't find the words to describe how amazing the U.S. is ----- but our recent pullout does NOT align with the "not perfect but we're freak'n trying" character of our country. (especially the way we did it... that's the only thing I'll specifically pin to Biden... and I VOTED for him... but I also voted for Trump the last time... we were all screwed once we had an election where Hillary & Trump were our only choices by the way. I just want a damn leader who's competent, at times slips and accidentally reveals that they wear their emotions on their sleeve, and can make a decision then execute ferociously while admitting wrong doing only on themselves should their decision be wrong. That's a leader).

Please, if anyone wants to discuss further... don't hesitate to PM at all. I'm also fine if moderators feel better about closing this thread due to the sensitivity. ...and Don... 30 years!?!? Would love to hear if you ever wanted to share with me.

[bluelagoon]

On reflection I am a little more annoyed than I originally realized. The laudable purpose of this particular thread is to reach out to veterans who may be struggling with recent US actions in Afghanistan given the number of both Americans and allies remaining in that country. I find your willingness to conflate that with an opportunity to point out your perceived deficiencies of certain Christian organizations and the state of TX deplorable. Given the issues of abandonment and the subjugation/murder of members of the Afghan civilian population I suggest you focus your attention on Canada's actions or lack thereof regarding Canadian citizens currently detained in Syria or ongoing violence in your Country toward indigenous females. Yes I am a Texan, we are frankly not interested in your opinion. Yes I am a veteran of 30 years and deployment to that region and yes I do feel betrayed by certain recent actions and yes when anyone, American or other decides to compare American shortcomings to fundamentalist Islamic Terrorist atrocities I get angry. Rethink your comments.

I don't need to rethink anything. This brings out your true colors. By the way thanks Don for your service to your country and it's allies. Much appreciated. Canada is boring. The drama is much more interesting to watch on CNN, rather than CBC. I would also agree with you about indigenous peoples; our old colonial Catholic ways destroyed these peoples by trying to beat the "Indian" out of them. This happened in both our countries and here in Canada right now many folks come to realize what our country was founded on.

[dspeers]

"I don't need to rethink anything" Wow, not sure I have lived a single day where I would have been willing to say that to myself or anyone else. Maybe in my 20s, when I was young and dumb. "This brings out your true colors" Mervin, I have no idea what you are trying to convey. Do you really think you know me on the basis of a couple of paragraphs? Is this a troll attempt? My point to you was that you might want to rethink why you wanted to bring up "Christian" right wing domestic terrorists or actions of, in your opinion, foolish Texan politicians in this particular forum. Finally, if CNN exclusively or even primarily informs your opinions of what happens to your south I suggest you broaden your horizons. Their track record over the last several years has been abysmal.

Elliot I am nothing more than an old retired guy. Truth be known my time in the sandbox was in IRAQ. For ~ 9 years till retirement I was in charge of the medical unit at one of the 2 largest Soldier Readiness Centers. We evaluated and prepped over 10K soldiers annually to deploy and then dealt with everything broken on their return. My involvement in the Afghan conflict was not in theater but I was very involved as the Senior Medical Officer as well as medical element Commander. I am doing well and appreciate your offering to assist struggling veterans. I also agree that the degree of incompetence in the withdrawal process is stunning. I would expect better out of a green 2LT straight out of West Point. Also once it became clear this was an unmitigated disaster, the unwillingness to admit error and modify the process to ensure/maximize success is even more disappointing. I cannot believe that the administration continues to tout the numbers moved. The numerator is meaningless, the mission is exclusively defined by who is or is not left on the ground in theater. Reminds me of the daily body counts from the Viet Nam conflict suggesting we were winning.

Not sure how much my comments have prompted the moderators to consider closing this, if so sorry. FWIW this is my last contribution to this thread so please eliminate any potential future comments from me in that decision matrix. Best if I am out.

[captainandy]

I just read the recently released best seller.
Afghanistan Papers.

If you really want to learn about this War then read it. The headlines are all deflections from the truth

[bluelagoon]

Did someone delete my post from yesterday?

[Second Hand Pat]

No Mervin. I placed a couple of the posts in the moderation queue. I have restored the posts but will close the thread. Please take any further discussion to PM.
Pat