Sickly Discus

[shaun_discus]

I have had 8 discus for 2 and a half years, grew them from 2" fish. 7 of my discus have been doing excellent these past years. They are huge and are stunning.

1 poor little guy, one of the German Wonder's has been not eating too well these last 2 months. He is wasting away. Poor little guy. The other German wonder is twice his size and looks fantastic. I haven't changed food, haven't introduced anything new to the tank in over a year. All the other fish seem fine.

Recently I treated the entire tank with API General Care. Followed the instructions. No change in the fish. I increased the temp from 86 to 90. No change in this fish although the others are ravenous!

This little guy still has the instinct to chase the food around. When he does suck a piece in it'll chew on it and then spit it out. Nearly all the time.

I haven't changed any food supply. They have always eaten frozen beef heart and now and then frozen blood worm.

I really want to save this little guy. Do you have any ideas I can try?

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[jeep]

Have you ever wormed them or examined their feces?

General Cure is pretty weak stuff and the instructions aren't all that helpful for discus.

I suggest filling out the disease questionnaire and paste it back here. It can provide valuable details...

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?134179-Disease-Questionnaire-please-complete

[shaun_discus]

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?
1 fish is thin, dark, wobbly, not eating hardly at all. Noticed 2 months ago. No changes to the tank.


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).
Very thin. Not eating. Dark. Hides sometimes.


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.
I treated the entire tank with API General Care. Followed the instructions.



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
80 gallons, 8 discus, 7 of them are 5", the fish in question is maybe 3". A few algae eaters, clown louche and a pleco. All been in there over 2 years together.


5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
30 gallons every 2 weeks.


6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
2 and a half years. Using 1" of white play sand.

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
1-2 days. I don't track the Ph swing.

8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?
None.

9. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp _____86

- ph _____

- ammonia reading ____0.5ppm

- nitrite reading ____0

- nitrate reading ____0-5ppm

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water ____ city tap water. Stendker fish, supposed to be ok in tap. Have been for 2.5 years in my tank.

- RO water ____


10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
None.

11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.
Frozen beefheart 2-4 times a day. Frozen bloodworm now and then. Algae wafers 1-2 times a week.


12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.
Pictures are attached to my original post.

[fljones3]

One place you can start (others will chime in) is that your water changes are too infrequent. You should be doing a minimum of 3x per week. Feeding beef heart without water changes can build bacteria in the tank. Pictures would help if you can post them.

[jeep]

One place you can start (others will chime in) is that your water changes are too infrequent. You should be doing a minimum of 3x per week. Feeding beef heart without water changes can build bacteria in the tank. Pictures would help if you can post them.

Great advice!!! Definitely increase the water changes. Why? Have a look here - http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?120956-What-Are-Bioload-and-Biomass-and-Why-They-Are-Important

[shaun_discus]

Thank you for your responses.

Pictures of the fish are in my first post. I hope you can see them.

I'm not going to be changing water any more often. I have a very robust filtration system. Sump, mechanical filtration (socks that I change every 1-2 days), biological media, plants, carbon. Water parameters never get out of control. All the other fish are and have been eating like crazy with no ill affects for years.

[Tkuilderd]

Thank you for your responses.

Pictures of the fish are in my first post. I hope you can see them.

I'm not going to be changing water any more often. I have a very robust filtration system. Sump, mechanical filtration (socks that I change every 1-2 days), biological media, plants, carbon. Water parameters never get out of control. All the other fish are and have been eating like crazy with no ill affects for years.

Discus are not like other fish. They are highly susceptible to bacterial infections and require a high amount of minerals and trace elements in the water. In order to keep bacteria to a minimum you need to be doing large water changes 50% or more (75+ is best) twice a week. You statement that you are not going to do this has essentially let everyone know that you dont want help, you only want to hear what you have already decided on. It looks like they may be suffering from bacterial cross contamination which needs a bare, sterile tank for treatment. The treatment is using rid ich plus (or ich x) both contain formalin. And 5tbs aquarium salt per 10G. I would recommend doing this and then give them a break and follow with a good deworming as they look skinny.

Tammy

[Second Hand Pat]

Thank you for your responses.

Pictures of the fish are in my first post. I hope you can see them.

I'm not going to be changing water any more often. I have a very robust filtration system. Sump, mechanical filtration (socks that I change every 1-2 days), biological media, plants, carbon. Water parameters never get out of control. All the other fish are and have been eating like crazy with no ill affects for years.

Shaun, you really need to up your water changes as a starting point. Some of the discus look ok but a couple look bad. How long have the discus been in this tank?
Pat

[shaun_discus]

Shaun, you really need to up your water changes as a starting point. Some of the discus look ok but a couple look bad. How long have the discus been in this tank?
Pat

They have been in this tank since May 2020. I grew them from 1.5" fish. How do you mean they look bad? All 7 others are thick, seem to have fat bellies/bodies and eat very well. No stress banding on those fish.

[LizStreithorst]

If you refuse to do the most important thing which is to change much more water much more often, I don't think we can be of much help. I'd have suggested a metro treatment with 500 mg of pure metro per 10 gallons, temp at at least 90, and large daily water change for 12 days.

Tammy has been around a long time, too. She's high on Rid Ick Plus. Treating with it is a lot easier than treating with metro, so I'd try that first. Of course, if you refuse to up your WC regain by a whole lot our advice is moot.

[Tkuilderd]

They have been in this tank since May 2020. I grew them from 1.5" fish. How do you mean they look bad? All 7 others are thick, seem to have fat bellies/bodies and eat very well. No stress banding on those fish.

These are Stendkers, they are super thick fish when compared with Asians. They are not as thick as they normally would be. I see 1 from those photos that looks kindof thick. They blues are super dark indicating they are unhappy with something. The one swimming is doing so with fins down indicating it isnt happy. The yellow looks to be swimming somewhat head up. Stendkers will normally eat, even when they arent feeling well. The best indicator for me though is size. These fish are reletively small for Stendkers which is a sign of growing up in an unkempt environment which is why many people have opted to grow fry to 5in in a bare tank. Adding minerals to the water is not going to be enough in a planted tank where everything in the environment is fighting for them. Also if you are using CO2 and not watching.your PH then how do you even know if you need the CO2 or if your adding too much CO2?
You have to be able to adjust your normal schedule to keep discus happy and thriving. Can they live in crap water? Yes. But will they be healthy? No

Tammy

[mleibowi]

Agree you need to up your WC routine. I'd suggest a few smaller water changes during the week to remove fish waste/uneaten food/debris. Then can do a weekly larger water change 50-60% if you don't want to do every other day larger water changes. Also, you probably have something internal going on like hexamita... are they pooping white stringy poop? If so, metro 500 mg per 10 gallons for 10-12 days with daily water changes. Also be sure to remove carbon/purigen etc... during treatment.

[Second Hand Pat]

They have been in this tank since May 2020. I grew them from 1.5" fish. How do you mean they look bad? All 7 others are thick, seem to have fat bellies/bodies and eat very well. No stress banding on those fish.

Shaun, this is your first picture posted. Look at the pinched forehand on the right-most fish. That fish is staving to death.

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Look at the forehead on this fish, it's all nice and smooth.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50624724638_68a0a3a1b1_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2k8wWTY)[/url] [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/129594174@N08/] (https://flic.kr/p/2k8wWTY)

[mleibowi]

I have a robust filtration system- wet/dry, mechanical etc... that turns the water over about 10x/hour. I still clean my tank thoroughly once weekly and try to remove poop/debris at least a few times in between.... Robust filtration is great but remove the physical **** to be blunt.

[shaun_discus]

Shaun, this is your first picture posted. Look at the pinched forehand on the right-most fish. That fish is staving to death.

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That is the fish I'm here discussing. None others look anything like that. Fat heads and bulging bellies.

[shaun_discus]

Agree you need to up your WC routine. I'd suggest a few smaller water changes during the week to remove fish waste/uneaten food/debris. Then can do a weekly larger water change 50-60% if you don't want to do every other day larger water changes. Also, you probably have something internal going on like hexamita... are they pooping white stringy poop? If so, metro 500 mg per 10 gallons for 10-12 days with daily water changes. Also be sure to remove carbon/purigen etc... during treatment.

I vacuum when I see debris and poop but the sand is usually very clean. Most of any debris ends up in the filter sock. I don't notice much/if any gunk when I vacuum deep into the sand during water changes.

No white poop. Brown poop is what I notice.

Where do I buy metro from?

[LizStreithorst]

I get mine from Jehmco. They sell the pure undiluted stuff.

[mleibowi]

Jehmco is the best place to buy metro- they are in south jersey and will ship. Cheapest and pure. My discus are large and when they poop it's huge. It's breaks up into debris but you still want to do water changes even if the sand looks clean.
'

[shaun_discus]

These are Stendkers, they are super thick fish when compared with Asians. They are not as thick as they normally would be. I see 1 from those photos that looks kindof thick. They blues are super dark indicating they are unhappy with something. The one swimming is doing so with fins down indicating it isnt happy. The yellow looks to be swimming somewhat head up. Stendkers will normally eat, even when they arent feeling well. The best indicator for me though is size. These fish are reletively small for Stendkers which is a sign of growing up in an unkempt environment which is why many people have opted to grow fry to 5in in a bare tank. Adding minerals to the water is not going to be enough in a planted tank where everything in the environment is fighting for them. Also if you are using CO2 and not watching.your PH then how do you even know if you need the CO2 or if your adding too much CO2?
You have to be able to adjust your normal schedule to keep discus happy and thriving. Can they live in crap water? Yes. But will they be healthy? No

Tammy

I'm not running any Co2. PH seems to be steady, then slowly drop after each water change. Goes up again with water change, then slowly down until the next.

[shaun_discus]

More pictures of fish. Do these not look healthy to you? I thought they looked pretty good. All of these were purchased at the same time. All were around 1.5-2". Now they are 5-6".

Stendker recommend 30% water change weekly of tap water. Admittedly, I'm a little off that but not off as much as 3 times a week. I just couldn't manage that schedule.

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[shaun_discus]

Jehmco is the best place to buy metro- they are in south jersey and will ship. Cheapest and pure. My discus are large and when they poop it's huge. It's breaks up into debris but you still want to do water changes even if the sand looks clean.
'

Thank you. I will call them tomorrow.

[Second Hand Pat]

That is the fish I'm here discussing. None others look anything like that. Fat heads and bulging bellies.

Actually the fish in the top left also has a pinched forehead. Just not as severe.
Pat

[seanyuki]

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[Iminit]

In your first pic the fish on the left looks sick. In the second set of pics in the first pic it’s the one on the bottom and it doesn’t look bad. Are these earlier pics? Easy to see these are Stendker discus. Don’t believe what Stendker says. Even Hans says more water changes would be better.

But with your water that is the best they will be. Stendker come out strong and if kept in good conditions may be better. But they do get weaker as they age in your water. You really need to up your water changes. Of course the ph is dropping between water changes its becoming more acidic. It’s an 80g with 8 discus a PLECO (high waste producer) and am I right just one clown loache? Clowns need a minimum of 2. Most clown keepers will say 6 and a 200g tank. All this makes for a high waste load. This waste needs to be removed. As stated 50-75% every 3 days.
Now I’d put the really sick one in a qt tank and treat. I don’t think this is a cross contamination I think it’s internal. Could be worms or hex I’m not sure the fish look the same for both. But because of the water I going with hex and metro like every one agrees. For the main tank water changes and try and get them off beef heart and onto a cleaner food. If another fish gets sick the whole tank will need help.
Many of us run big filtration systems. There great for community tanks to reduce water changes. Not discus. Every book (not the internet) will tell you change water first. Good luck.The people that answered you already are some of the best out there.

[shaun_discus]

Thank you all for your responses.

I spent a couple of hours last night giving the sump a really good cleaning. I spent all morning today cleaning the tank and changing 30 gallons of water. That is as much as my Brute container will hold. I have committed to at least 1 water change like that per week. That is all I can handle. If truly need to do more than that to stop these fish suffering and dying I should get rid of them. :(

I didn't get much work done today between cleaning and observing the fish. I have yet to see any 'stringy white pooh' and then this!:

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Is this stringy white pooh? Hex?

I tried calling to order some Metro today but the NJ shop is closed Fridays...

[bluelagoon]

Usually, yellow poop might be an indication of malabsorption due to parasites/worms.

[shaun_discus]

Usually, yellow poop might be an indication of malabsorption due to parasites/worms.

Thank you. And Metro would treat that?

This fish has started to not be as aggressive at feeding times. :( Started to hide...

[LizStreithorst]

It looks like hex poop rather than worm poop to me.

[bluelagoon]

Yes, hex is a parasite and Metro will work on that parasite. Might want to up WC's; the stressor might be polluted water.

[LizStreithorst]

That's exactly his problem. He was changing 30% every two weeks. He says he can't do better than 30% weekly after reading our responses. Treatment will be a stop gap measure in his case. He will continue to have problems if he insists on keeping his Discus in polluted water he will continue to have problems.

[mleibowi]

Yes metro will help. Consider a python for water changes will save you time. If using a brute to age water you can use a pump to add the water. You could also reduce your bioload by keeping maybe 6 discus. Apart from that, discus require clean water- if you can’t keep it up, maybe consider keeping a different type of fish. A beta would look nice in a 90 gallon, but it maybe a little small for it :D

[shaun_discus]

Thank you all for your advice.

Metro on the way from JEHM Co.

So, 500 mg of pure metro per 10 gallons, temp at at least 90, and large daily water change for 12 days. Will do.

Just for clarification, do water change, then add Metro. Repeat the next day for 12 days. Sound correct?

[shaun_discus]

Just finished my 12th water change/Metro dose. I changed 30 gallons of my 80 each day and dosed 4 grams of metro each change when the new water went in. I removed the carbon at the start of this 12 day process.

The fish in question has gotten worse. Very dark, hiding, fins falling apart. Poor guy.

All the other fish are flourishing. Loving the increased temp and always starving.

Maybe I was just too late to help this fish?

I did improve my water changing technique to make it quicker which will equate to doing it more.

[LizStreithorst]

Welcome back Shaun. I wish you'd posted about this fish before. It sounds to me like you're using the wrong medication. Please post a pic. I hope that together we can get the fish back to health.

[shaun_discus]

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[fljones3]

Unfortunately, I would dispose of the fish for the sake of the others. :(

[LizStreithorst]

Shuan, I would do what Frank would do. I'm sorry but that poor fish has so much wrong going on with it that it won't last long despite what you do. God, I hate telling somebody that.

[shaun_discus]

Well that was hard but it is done. Poor little guy.

I feel bad for him, like I failed him. Not spotting/reacting sooner and not increasing my water change routine. I will work on that and not let life get too busy and neglect my fish.

[LizStreithorst]

I'm sorry Shaun, but it's easier that watching die a slow death. You're fish taught you the main lesson. Discus are easy to keep, but only if you follow their rules.

[fljones3]

Well that was hard but it is done. Poor little guy.

I feel bad for him, like I failed him. Not spotting/reacting sooner and not increasing my water change routine. I will work on that and not let life get too busy and neglect my fish.

Sorry for your loss. Shaun, every one of us have lost fish. And, no manner how much you read and prepare, there is a learning curve. I have learned and have watched others learn. However, if you follow what others are telling you here on this forum it will improve your experience greatly. Nothing lives forever no manner how hard we try. I tell people sometimes (true for animals also), the best one can do in this life is to die healthy. :)

[LizStreithorst]

Sorry for your loss. Shaun, every one of us have lost fish. And, no manner how much you read and prepare, there is a learning curve. I have learned and have watched others learn. However, if you follow what others are telling you here on this forum it will improve your experience greatly. Nothing lives forever no manner how hard we try. I tell people sometimes (true for animals also), the best one can do in this life is to die healthy. :)

I have to disagree, Frank. My goal in life is to die content with what I have accomplished, knowing that I have done my very best.

[fljones3]

I have to disagree, Frank. My goal in life is to die content with what I have accomplished, knowing that I have done my very best.

Great goal but I was talking medically. Sorry for the confusion.
There are MUCH greater goals than what I said as far as life itself.

[shaun_discus]

Thank you all for your help.