Alternatives to Aging Water?

[jwcarlson]

My tap water goes from 7.2 to 8.3 pH with aging. I am currently set up to do 90% WC in my discus tank nightly, but I recently purchased some additional tanks and am considering getting some more discus at some point.

Wondering if there are alternatives to causing this off-gassing of CO2 (at least, I think that's what is happening here) to occur more "on demand"? Not sure I want to have 3-4 aging barrels and don't think I can fit a big tote in somehow.

Just wondering if there's some filter or something that I'm ignorant of!

Thanks!

[LizStreithorst]

Nothing that I know of. 90% is a huge WC. I generally do 30 to 50% daily. With that large a swing you really do need to age.

[jwcarlson]

Nothing that I know of. 90% is a huge WC. I generally do 30 to 50% daily. With that large a swing you really do need to age.

From an actual time spent standpoint it doesn't much matter if I do a 10% or 90% water change as most time is draining and filling (and then re-filling the barrel). It's just the whole aging barrel leaving about an inch of water in the 75 the discus are in. I don't have an automatic system, but I use pumps, timers, and valves so that I just have to flip a few valves and punch a couple buttons and I'm free to do other chores or whatever. I suppose if I had more than one discus tank, I could split the water changes either smaller percentages daily or more likely, I would cut back on the older discus and change more in anything I would be growing out. I'm mainly just wondering if there's any shortcutting. :) I figured that there is not because I haven't heard anything mentioned anywhere. But was just wondering if there's some membrane or something that would help force the gas out.

I have a small RO system that I bought before I got discus and it's still in the box. I have no plans on using it unless I decide I want to try breeding them, but that's nothing I am directly planning. But I could see that being something I'm interested in at some point. So as a side-question... if I were make RO from my water, would it still need to be aged? Or does RO remove CO2?

[LizStreithorst]

According to my understanding the RO has to be aged as well.

[mleibowi]

I don’t and siphoning takes some time. I just do 50-69% water changes every 2-3 days

[LizStreithorst]

I bet your pH swing is quite small.

[bluelagoon]

I've heard of some folks using a shower head or sponge to get the air bubbles/gas from the water. But you can't beat aged water when doing large WC's. It brings it to a better equilibrium when exposed to air. Especially, your water. What might be ok for some folks can be detrimental to others. PH swings can stress discus over time; best for chemical changes to happen during aging (for large WC's).

[jwcarlson]

To be clear, I am not planning on NOT bringing my pH to stable level before water changes. I'm simply looking for an alternative (more expedient) way of doing just that.

In short... a way to change water straight from my tap AND avoid pH swing. I think the means with which to do that from a temperature standpoint aren't particularly difficult to figure out, but the pH side of things is difficult.

I found some interesting filters that 3M makes specifically for decarbonization/degassing that I'm digging into. For anyone interested: https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/liquicel-us/
I contacted their technical support, so will see what they say. At the very least I'd like to buy one and give it a shot.

It's basically a little exchanger that gives a massive increase in surface area that allows of the off gassing to happen more quickly, can even put gas through it on the exchange side (just air in this particular case). I'm curious to know how long one of these would function and what would cause flow to drastically decrease and require the changing of filter cartridge. I don't mind aging for my current setup, and I actually age and preheat for all my tanks anyway. I don't currently have a bypass for hot water around my water softener, so I don't have much of a choice anyway unless I use softened water. Which I used to do 20 years ago for my oscars and they didn't seem to mind. But I wasn't changing large amounts of water daily either.

[LizStreithorst]

I never knew that such a cool thing even existed. Please let us know what what tech support tells you. It would be great if is actually works as you hope.

[jwcarlson]

I will follow up, I'm an engineer (though electrical) and so sometimes things I just can't believe something like this doesn't exist, though strangely little information about its availability.
There are also degassing towers, but i don't know how quickly that method would work.

Mainly curious about cost... These could be $2k a piece for all I know!

[Vanman]

Probably more than 2K.

[jwcarlson]

Maybe... But they're not a particularly complicated item, I don't think. I'm very curious to see what 3M says, they forwarded me on to a chemical engineer.
Will keep everyone posted.

[jeep]

I've never had an issue doing 25% water changes straight from tap in winter and up to 40% in summer when the co2 content is lower. It may not sound significant, but I'm limited on space as well and the extra 25% from tap helps me complete my regular water changes without adding additional time or space for aging.

I drain all tanks then fill then patially fill them. Once they are are all filled to the 75% line, I pump warm water into the holding tanks and continue filling the tanks as normal. The change in ph is nominal...

[jwcarlson]

Part of my issue with doing that, Brian, is that I do not have a hot water bypass ability around my water softener. And I don't want to use that water... though, that might be an irrational fear.

How much does your pH shift with aging vs tap, Brian?

[jeep]

I didn't realize you have a softener. I wouldn't want to use it either.

I don't measure my ph anymore, but when I did it was in reverse. My water comes in around 8.9+ and ages to 8.2. Discus handle a rise better than a fall so I don't have ph issues.

Another idea is to use storage tanks like Ping uses. They are tall verticle tanks instead of the regular 55g's that I use. I will be adding them during my upcoming remodel so I can save on space and conceal everything. If you search through some of his fishroom photo's you'll see them.

[jwcarlson]

Where can I find Ping's fishroom pictures, Brian? I have just an unfinished basement and it's pretty well unused, so I've got space. Just trying to think of the logistics if I were to get more discus.
That said... I feel like if I'm going to do large water changes on any tank, I should probably age it. Or otherwise settle the pH out, which is why I'm interested in the system I linked above.

All that said... it's entirely possible that I could more quickly "age" my water. or, in fact, that my water doesn't even need 24 hours and is actually settled in pH after, say, 8 hours. That would take some testing and wouldn't be too terrible. But simply aging water more quickly it doesn't really change my situation. If I could do it "instantly", that would really do the trick.
And I realize I'm probably overlooking something else that might be required and that most of this discussion is mostly me working through things in my head. Let me describe my ideal setup (and probably everyone else here lol)... I turn on my water change water, it goes through an "on demand heater" bringing the water up to whatever I have the controller set at (say 85 degrees for my discus), it then goes through some sort of rapid aging setup, and squirts out into the tank at stable pH and correct temperature with zero water storage required. Now, if I were going to commit to getting more discus, I would increase my current storage/aging setup as needed. But I'm kind of at the stage of wondering if I can do more discus without becoming a slave to water changes. I'm 38, I'm an engineer, I've got a wife... three kids... two high maintenance dogs... and I'm a beekeeper. And time is always always a premium. I realize this isn't a unique issue. I'm strongly leaning to exiting the beekeeping world, at least at this time in my life.

I know not all of this is related to the OP here, but trying to shape where I'm coming from. I'm also at a point in my life where it's not that big of a deal for me to spend some money on setting up something like this. Now, I'm not going to spend $2k on a 18" filter that removes CO2... but I wouldn't be bothered by better setting myself up for better efficiency from a time stand point because that allows me to spend more time or create more capacity to spend the time that I do (if that makes sense). In short... when I'm changing 90% in my 75 every night I'm thinking... could I be doing this in parallel in another tank with another set of growout discus?
And of course I start thinking about an automatic water changing system of some sort. But I don't want to necessarily lose sight of being in-tune with the fish and observing them.

Thanks for letting me vomit my thoughts out for everyone to see! :cheesy: :D

[jeep]

Here's a pic that shows part of his setup. I think he has several of these storage containers lined up in a row. They can be costly new but I'm sure you can find cheaper used ones on Craigslist

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Liz uses those square IBC totes with wire cages. They have a big footprint and hold like 275g each but they can be stacked. Again, CL is a good bet on finding cheap used ones but I would be sure what was in them before using one. When I visited her I saw many of them just setting by the side of the road.

[jwcarlson]

Awesome, Brian, I certainly don't think the totes or those bigger tanks would fit into the basement, but those are a good use of footprint, for sure. I've seen the totes, one of the LFS here has a stack of them for his water. It wouldn't be difficult for me to put four of these pickle barrels (that are bigger than 55 gallons apparently, because one of them will fill my entire 75 short about an inch or two). So, thinking they're about 60 or 65 gallons by the time I figure in the volume displaced by filters/fish/decoration/etc.

Four barrels would be 240 gallons of aged water, would also give me ability to heat to different temperatures if needed. I'm leaning towards the fishroom in the basement being natives with low or limited heat requirements... maybe creek-like vibes. But also kind of interested in maybe another discus grow out. Because I think my Stendkers went well, but I know I could do better. And I'm half considering giving away or selling my Stendkers, but not sure how I feel about that. I wouldn't be opposed to breeding some discus, not for any real reason other than being able to say that I did it.

Thanks for the references, Brian!

[bluelagoon]

This is the first time I heard about the CO2 gas off devices. Are they used for fish water? I'm wondering if this includes removing O2 as well. If so this wouldn't be good for extra large WC's. All that dead water; your fish might be gasping for air at the surface. I agree with Brian on the 25% tap water; I can do the same thing here with my tap water.

[jeep]

Me and a friend installed a 1500g container for his fishroom. Where the bottom drain plug is, is where we installed a jacuzzi pump to supply a couple hundred tanks. Just after the pump we installed a diverter valve so we could pump the water back into the holding tank for rapid aeraton and aging, so there was no "dead water". This is basically the same concept I use on my 55g barrels now. As long as the water is warm, I can age or off-gas my water in about 2-3 hours. Cold water takes much longer.

Another idea I've been thining on is to fill the holding tanks with regualr cold tap water, then use a small tankless water heater to heat the water and age it. This would be installed at some point in the system, possibly attached to a smaller pump because small tankless water heaters have a much lower flow capacity than the pump that fills the tank. That way I'm heating water on demand instead of paying the extra money to maintain a constantly heated water supply. All my tanks and holding tanks are insulated with Reflectix so I can keep a 55g holding tank at 80 degrees using only a 100w heater.

I don't understand the concept of using a device to off-gas co2. Co2 is compressed at the molecular level and only dissipates as it expands and the water temp rises or if it's given enough time, naturally, which can take days. Placing a mesh or filter pad material can help diffuse the co2 and possibly reduce aging time, but it can't trap and remove a dissolved gas. Obviously some peope swear by it but I just don't understand the logic...

[jwcarlson]

To be clear, these are for industrial and lab related applications. They make versions for CO2 and O2 removal, but not both, I don't think, but it is absolutely possible it strips both? I'm not just going to strap on of these on and do a 90% water change... I don't know what they cost or what draw backs there might be. The O2 issue is something I'm concerned about and thought about... will ask the guy if/when he gets back to me. I figured *something* like this had to exist and so after making this post I went digging around. Figured it would be something industrial and so I started looking at places I would when doing my normal, engineering job. Anyway, stumbled up on this technology and thought it looked promising. I want to make sure that no one thinks I'm currently using this or endorsing it or something. It might completely kill the fish for all I know. Just to be clear.

I run an air stone in my barrel and age for 24 hours, I have no clue if it takes 10 minutes, 10 hours, or 24 hours to age out the CO2 and to be frank... it does not matter at all. As long as the "aging" isn't instantaneous, then there really isn't an advantage to me aging water faster (unless I forgot to fill the barrel or something) because I still have to store it. Hopefully that makes sense. If I still have to hold the water and aerate/heat it... even for 30 minutes, then that doesn't really do much good for me. Hopefully that makes sense and that I don't sound snarky or combative, as that's not my intent. My "wish" here would be to pre-heat water and strip the CO2 in real time in order to get the pH stable in real-time. Again, the idea here would be that I could inline heat the water and strip the CO2 and pump it right into the tank. On the flipside, if it took an hour to fill my tank this way compared to the 15 minutes or so that it takes now, that's OK for me. So there's a lot of moving parts in what I am particularly trying to streamline because my needs/desires may be way different than others. If my pH didn't shift 1.3 or more, I'd happily hard pipe a bypass, install an on-demand/inline water heater and call it good. The pH shift is the demon in the system and so that's kind of what I'm going after.

As far as the technology is concerned, think of it like a sieve that has big enough holes to let through CO2, but not water. Some of the models look like the require or at least benefit from vacuum on the shell side of the exchanger, which would reduce the pressure and "draw" the CO2 out further. This isn't different than anyone using pads or bigger bubblers/air stones/baffles... or towers where the bubbles travel further up through the water. All of that is to increase the surface area, turbidity, or both. There's no sort of chemical filtration happening here with these 3M filters or anything. If you go to the website there's a little animation and plenty of text talking about how it works.

Brian, I think we're talking past each other a bit. Are you saying you don't understand the value in being able to eliminate the need to age water from a CO2 standpoint (if aging is something that one's water requires them to do)? Or that you don't understand how this particular 3M technology works?

[jeep]

Brian, I think we're talking past each other a bit. Are you saying you don't understand the value in being able to eliminate the need to age water from a CO2 standpoint (if aging is something that one's water requires them to do)? Or that you don't understand how this particular 3M technology works?

We may be but I was also being a little more generalized. I was refering to people who claim they can eliminate microbubbles (co2/nitrogen) while filling their tanks simply by using filter floss. When you look at the physics of why co2 exists in pressurized water supplies in the first place, it makes no sense...

I guess I just had that image stuck in my head, lol...

[jwcarlson]

Ahhh, ok, I'm with you now. I thought you were saying basically "why would anyone see value in 'instantly' off gassing". I totally agree that just a little more turbidity or agitation isn't going to fix anything in real-time. Especially not just passing it through filter floss or something.

So what you said makes complete sense. I agree that anyone who thinks passing their water through filter floss is instantly off-gassing anything is fooling themselves. Unless they're doing it under vacuum or something. :D

[pastry]

Jacob, not sure if this helps you as you are putting your plan together (even if already executing), but you can get a very inexpensive rapid-water-heater if you need large amount of water heated quickly (don't use in tank with fish! just water holding/aging containers!). It's "dangerous" if someone's an idiot (I'm pretty dumb myself and actually shocked myself several times recently when I saw the rubber coating on power cable had been rubbed off... I'm still alive though!). I've heated up 100 gallons in a Rubbermaid tote I have outside when the air temp was mid-20's, water temp I think was low 40s when I plugged in heater, and approx 3 hours later it was beyond temp I needed (92). Son of a ***** definitely eats up some electricity and will trip breaker if on a circuit that already has a decent load.

If interested, let me know and I'll track down the Amazon URL for it. I think it cost me under/at $30. Multiple, similar variants & sizes (no temperature setting... just plug in and check until desired temp).

[jwcarlson]

I wouldn't mind seeing it, though I don't think I would use one. Sounds fun though. Hahaha

I have not heard back from 3M,I supposed they don't care about my silly use case!

[pastry]

I literally borrowed a hard plastic kiddie pool 2 February'sago, put it in my wife's garage, filled it up, plugged heater in 4 hours ahead of time (added huge cardboard piece on top to help heat faster), and then tried to put my old party boy speedo on ... but had to settle for boxer briefs... and jumped in it 10 mins before she pulled in the driveway with our sons. She hit the garage door opener and ... there I was.. in my own redneck hot tub with bud heavy, a cigarette, and looked like a fat lobster because that thing was cooking! As a surprise to me, I didn't realize a neighbor and 3 neighborhood kids had run up the driveway as they pulled in.

[jwcarlson]

I literally borrowed a hard plastic kiddie pool 2 February'sago, put it in my wife's garage, filled it up, plugged heater in 4 hours ahead of time (added huge cardboard piece on top to help heat faster), and then tried to put my old party boy speedo on ... but had to settle for boxer briefs... and jumped in it 10 mins before she pulled in the driveway with our sons. She hit the garage door opener and ... there I was.. in my own redneck hot tub with bud heavy, a cigarette, and looked like a fat lobster because that thing was cooking! As a surprise to me, I didn't realize a neighbor and 3 neighborhood kids had run up the driveway as they pulled in.

Hahaha, it's always nice to invite the neighbors to the show.
Anyone else join you in the hot tub?

So what's the heater? You have me interested. I have a sous vide and I have often wondered how quick it could take a big barrel of water from cold to 80-some degrees. It's 1500 watts and it circulates. I suppose that a bigger version of that would make quick work of a barrel, but it would certainly suck up a lot of current. Though probably the same amount of power overall, just a lot quicker. Right now I have it timed so that the water is tank temperature at like 5 PM and then I'm usually changing water around 7. But sometimes as early as 5:30 or 6 depending on what I have going on.

[pastry]

This is the URL to one of them (the one I got 2 years ago looks the exact same... stainless steel, yellow caps and power cord).

Immersion Water Heater, Electric Submersible Water Heater with Stainless Steel Guard Cover, Portable Bucket Heater to Heat 5 Gallons of Water in Minutes (Yellow) https://a.co/d/2CTHdqZ

[jwcarlson]

Thanks, Elliot! My barrel takes about 5.5kwh to heat to 85. So about 9 hours with my 600 watts. This one should be able to do it in about 4 hours bring 1500 watts. Might have to pick one up. Not sure if Inhave a heat controller that can handle that current though.

[jeep]

Looks interesting. I would definitely use an inline GFCI with a setup like that.

[jwcarlson]

This afternoon I had a discussion with a 3M representative in relation to the Liqui-Cell technology that I linked earlier in this thread.

Unfortunately, it will not work for my water because of the pH. The technology would not work for me because of my high (relative) pH. He said pH ranges of 5-6 would work well.

We chatted a bit, I didn't want to waste his time because he wasn't going to sell me anything. He said CO2 at my pH is bicarbonate and at lower pHs it is actual CO2. There could be some lost in translation here as he is a chemical engineer and I'm just a lowly electrical version. In any event, he said that the technology is used in fish farming to control oxygen concentration without introducing bubbles. For fear of gas bubble disease? Not sure I've heard of that.
Also said that it is used in the reverse to lower oxygen concentration and kill the fish by basically asphyxiating them (with the theory that the flesh is better without more mechanical/stressful means of dispatch).

He seemed kind of bummed, but I said that it's possible someone out there has the right kind of water that it might make sense for...

I'm glad he took the time to call and chat.

[bluelagoon]

Makes sense to me. You live were there's limestone in the area. Lots of calcium, carbonate and I would think sodium chloride (salt) as well.

[jwcarlson]

Makes sense to me. You live were there's limestone in the area. Lots of calcium, carbonate and I would think sodium chloride (salt) as well.

Yes, to the limestone, unknown about the salt side of things. He followed up with an email with some other filtration options that might take care of carbonates "in line" (not things his company sells, but things he researched after talking to me). I haven't really looked at them yet. I think he was interested because of how odd-ball of a request it was.

[dspeers]

This might be an expensive case of playing wack a mole with a sledge hammer. Wouldn't you be at risk of excessive extraction of CO2 with consequent pH shifts from high to low after water change? I think the CO2 offgassing can be accomplished much faster than 8 hours with a quick immersion heater and agitation +/- a showerhead recirculation system to marginally increase the surface area of the water. I would simply check pH every 30 min with such a system and see how quickly it gets to target. If you do try, and still too slow, whould next try and design a way to circulate the air below the reservoir cover as CO2 is heavier than N2 or O2. In theory this makes sense, practically may be a trivial effect, but maybe not. Kids classrooms show a marked increase in CO2 during the school day when occupied.

[jwcarlson]

I certainly think that the aging can be done more quickly than 24 hours. But it doesn't matter to me if it's 24 minutes or 24 hours. If it's not "real-time" then it doesn't really matter to me. If that makes any sense. If I had an automated system it might make sense that something faster might be beneficial.

Regarding excessive CO2 removal, I have no clue if that's possible. It could very well be that is something that's possible. But I'm not a chemistry guru and it's been 15 years since I took chemistry when I was in college, so I know that I'm qualified to answer that question.

[Vanman]

Did he happen to mention how much these filters cost?

[pastry]

Jacob, I haven't read everything since my last post but forgot to tell you there are different wattage choices if you need quicker! Although no setting, you can easily estimate (swag) amount of time needed to heat from ## degrees to ## degrees after the first usage.

[jwcarlson]

He didn't, but I would guess they're pretty expensive.

But there's also a huge range of applications and flow rates. So it's possible there's a small version that's relatively affordable, but the bigger versions are more expensive. I would feel comfortable giving you his contact information through PM if you are interested.

[dspeers]

Wrote this hours ago but got distracted and did not post.

I am 40+ years seperated from my college chemistry. Did not realize you wanted what ammounts to a single switch system. Below is my vision of a solution which I never thought about till now but just might try. Currently I have 4 tanks awaiting my final design and resolution of a difficult social situation. The plan was to change water twice weekly per tank but essentially 6 of 7 days per me due to my limits on space to age water. Considering my disabilities I would also have to set up an apex system or equivalent to move water for every tank.

For what you want:
Step 1 would be inline heater and either integrated valve or step 2 would be a valve to control flow to regulate outflow temp. Step 3 would be a small reservoir where the warm water would be sprayed in via a shower head, the other alternative would be a reservoir with aeration and agressive circulation. One or the other would be more effective in rapidly offgassing the CO2 (wouldn't know till I tried), if 1 did not work could add more in series. That would then drain to a small reservoir with a sump pump controlled by a fill valve. As long as the sump pump flow was higher than what the tap was providing you get semi instant aged water. Open question is whether the aeration and circulation vs a spray head would indeed dissipate the CO2 rapidly enough. My plan is to heat up some water and then run it through a mock up of both of the reservoirs to see what pH changes I get vs aging x 24. Question is do you have room for such a system. I could do it where my 75 gallon reservoir is currently.

[jwcarlson]

I have thought of something similar, but was thinking more of an 6-8 foot tall tower filled with... something, like bio balls maybe. Basically, something that would rough up the water (and could even spray down with a shower head type set-up) as it cascaded down into a barrel or basin where the pump would then pump it to the tank. It would need to be preheated, obviously. The issue I have is the way my water situation currently exists; I can't really get heated water without it going through my water softener. I could completely bypass or turn off the softener for a batch of hot water, but then it's heating/aging in the water heater and would skew results. Perhaps I could learn what I need to from a tap cold trial of such a system? And let's say (in my circumstance) it takes the water from pH 7 to like 7.5 or 7.6. I would feel pretty comfortable that water that's 20 degrees warmer would probably "age" quickly enough to get close to the final pH of 8.2. But if it goes from 7 to 7.2... maybe that takes some more information.

I'm thinking like a 4" PVC pipe full of the bio balls. Could rig in a sprayer through a drilled pipe cap to blast down into it. PVC is like $25 for a 10' drain pipe, the whole thing wouldn't take much to do, really. My refill pump outpumps my tap water so I'd have to think about controlling that somehow. In theory, I could start this water aging when I start draining the tank and it would be mostly full by the time I'm ready to fill.

Just spit-balling, I guess. For what I'm currently doing, it's not that big of a deal to continue as I currently am.

[dspeers]

Look at in line heaters. Biggest problem is that most require a 30A circuit which requires an electrician or skills I do not currently possess. Would also be the most expensive part of the system. Can't prove it (yet) but I am guessing that heating the water will force out the majority of the CO2, so testing anything with cold water would be inaccurate. I think any design that markedly increases the surface area would work, and your trickle-down towers are well suited and if 1 is insufficient could be rigged with 2 or 3 in parallel. Also, increasing the vertical footprint would reduce the horizontal one which is cool. In addition you could over heat (to say 86 or 88 degrees (I am old I think in F)) the water with a resultant faster loss of CO2 and depend on the tower(s) to cool the water to the desired temp. The idea of eliminating the storage requirement and the obligate increased number of tasks, as well as space and time considerations is intriguing.

If you make a tower and run the test please let us know, if not I will definitely try this but not for a few more months.

[jeep]

Look at in line heaters. Biggest problem is that most require a 30A circuit which requires an electrician or skills I do not currently possess.

This is why I've been wondering if an electric tankless water heater would work. The bigger units are 220v and are expensive but they also make smaller units that work on 120v for between $75-$150. It wouldn't have to be powerful enough for regular house usage, just powerful enough to raise the temp to 78-80 degrees. I kind of question if the 120v unit would provide long term reliability.

[jwcarlson]

Yes, and a 240V circuit at that. If I were going to put in an on-demand heater it would probably be gas. I think. Though I don't know the pro/cons between the two.

I do understand that cold water testing would be inaccurate, however... I think it might allow me to reach some conclusions or draw parallels, because we know warmer water dissipates better.
I do not start heating my water until about 10 AM for water change around 6 PM. But it is aerated the entire time. I could do plenty of testing in order to at least get a decent idea of what is currenting happening in my system. I don't bother because I don't care, frankly. It's working just fine. I am currently trying to figure out what I have that could be put in the tower of PVC pipe that would allow me to fill it, because I have some bioballs, but not enough to fill that entire tower, I don't think. I've got various filter floss and stuff like that.

I know that before I've been saying that if it's not "instant" than it doesn't matter. But thinking more I do have a 15-20 minute gap in which the water could be 'turbo aging' and pre-heating. The filling of and storage of a barrel isn't a big deal.
I'm also looking more towards having additional tanks, but honestly, if not doing massive water changes like I do in the discus tank, it probably doesn't matter much if I do a 25% water change on a 55 and use un-aged water. And it might not even matter that much if it's just tap-water cold either, honestly.

I got suckered into taking 15 swordtail fry from my in-laws and I've been doing small water changes on their tank every 2-3 nights and just dumping straight cold tap water back on top of them and they don't seem to bat an eye, so perhaps it's less of a big deal for that type of situation.

[jwcarlson]

This is why I've been wondering if an electric tankless water heater would work. The bigger units are 220v and are expensive but they also make smaller units that work on 120v for between $75-$150. It wouldn't have to be powerful enough for regular house usage, just powerful enough to raise the temp to 78-80 degrees. I kind of question if the 120v unit would provide long term reliability.

Most of those 120V units are for situations where you've got a sink and someone is going to wash their hands occasionally, like in an RV type setting or something like that. I would guess they would struggle with running near full-out for 30-40 minutes? But maybe I'm wrong. Even at 120V raising water temp 15-20 degrees instantly is going to take some juice. Might do some digging to see if anyone has used one of those smaller units in this type of way. As long as it functions reliably it wouldn't matter much to me if the filling process took longer because it's not really "hand time".

[jeep]

Yes, legitimate concerns about the 120v unit. Hopefully it's an evolving thought process that can be perfected by the time I install it...