PB and peppering

[mleibowi]

What is considered an “acceptable” amount of peppering in PBs these days? How about this guy? 135698. I like clean pigeon bloods but my kids like their “freckles” like their dad has.

[brewmaster15]

Peppering is one of those topics that is hard to come to consensus on. The hobby in general has gravitated towards less and less on pigeon bloods through selective breeding and out crossing to Goldens. Its kind of a strange situation because peppering is one of the traits that defines a pigeon blood. So to remove peppering is kind of like destroying the Pb strain.. At some point when does a pigeon blood stop being a pigeon blood ? Thats a related question here thats not been defined by anyone.

Generally , The level of acceptible peppering is different for everyone. I think your fish looks fine. Looks healthy and has nice shape.Yours is pretty clean. I have owned fish that were so peppered over the years that they would be culls by todays standards.. Back then they were normal.

Clean pigeons are very common now... but heavily peppered ones still get sold.... they really shouldnt. Novices buy them and then are disappointed as they learn more about the hobby.

Personally I dont mibd a little peppering on a pigeon...but I have to admit even I have shifted more towards the less is best camp over the years.

Just my thoughts,
Al

[Iminit]

It doesn’t bother me at all. Not sure and will go look but I think all my PBs are peppered. All the Germans I had were peppered a lot. I think it’s got something to do with water. All that I got came clean but eventually peppered. I’m not showing any of mine so for me it just doesn’t matter. Yours looks great with a great body shape and looks healthy! Can’t do better than that :).

[jeep]

The acceptable amount of peppering is in the eye of the beholder. For me, the only good peppering is no peppering.

[seanyuki]

A lot of new hybrid discus contains pigeon genes in them, by selective breeding over the years much of the tendency to pepper has been bred out of pigeon bloods.So it also depends on genetics and the breeders quality control.

[Iminit]

Lol here 3 discus I bought together as the same type. These I was told were siblings.135699the one is pepperless. Now these other 2 are peppered. 135700. Here they are at 3.5” with no peppering135701. Now here’s another I bought a 4.5”135702the one on the right.135703. This is it now. Notice the peppering. Seems it’s happening in my tank

[mleibowi]

Thanks all. Agree with Brian. I like Al, favor less peppering. I suppose facial peppering is OK. Tom, peppering is how the PB’s camouflage. I’ve read darker substrate/background etc… exacerbates it which makes sense. The notion that water quality and that they “fade over time” never made sense to me from a genetic standpoint. I suppose making one’s tank less dark helps. I read that some Asian breeders will keep their lights on 24/7 to prevent peppering bit it doesn’t change their genes. Maybe if young enough it can cause epigentic changes and decrease peppering but I’m not familiar with any studies to support that hypothesis.

All in all, I agree less peppering is nicer aesthetically to me, but my bigger question was given the improvement in selective breeding these days, should PB be clean and does the one pictured represent a cull? Shape, color and patterns are more important to me these days. A pretty color on a bird beak discus is a big turnoff….

[Iminit]

Well I believe it’s got something to do with the tank and genetics :). Really I’ve got no clue. But the fish are siblings and in the same tank. One has no peppering and is more dominant the other 2 do show peppering. Non showed any when I got them. It is what it is. It would never cross my mind to cull. Here’s 2 more I had a few years ago. These are heavily peppered and not orange135707135708. I was told these were a mix of turqs and BPs. I thought they looked great!

[brewmaster15]

Well I believe it’s got something to do with the tank and genetics :). Really I’ve got no clue. But the fish are siblings and in the same tank. One has no peppering and is more dominant the other 2 do show peppering. Non showed any when I got them. It is what it is. It would never cross my mind to cull. Here’s 2 more I had a few years ago. These are heavily peppered and not orange135707135708. I was told these were a mix of turqs and BPs. I thought they looked great!
Thats a classic effect of breeding old school Pigeon bloods
to non pigeon bloods. It often made for very dirty looking crosses just like this..More recent pigeons can sometimes make cleaner crosses to non pigeons.. but still peppered offsprings are possible.

[CliffsDiscus]

These Pigeon Bloods have been on the market since 1989. It was sold by Wattley as Red Panda back in 1990. Usually after 5 years these Pigeon Bloods have been cross with every hybrid and strain of Discus.

[Iminit]

Cliff in I think Dec 90 or Jan 91 I went to a discus symposium at 1 of the airports in NY. Everybody from TFH was there. It was the who’s who in discus breeders. And so much info given! Great show. But I went there looking for blue discus. Went the year before and couldn’t compete in the auctions. This time I was ready :). Thing was pigeon bloods were the new wave. Got to say they were some ugly looking fish. But everybody was bidding on them! A beautiful Degen Blue Cobolt came up to bid. I was the only bidder :) $60. What a steal! Had the fish for around 5 years. In Feb of 91 it was the cover of TFH. 135721.

[Delv2323]

Cliff in I think Dec 90 or Jan 91 I went to a discus symposium at 1 of the airports in NY. Everybody from TFH was there. It was the who’s who in discus breeders. And so much info given! Great show. But I went there looking for blue discus. Went the year before and couldn’t compete in the auctions. This time I was ready :). Thing was pigeon bloods were the new wave. Got to say they were some ugly looking fish. But everybody was bidding on them! A beautiful Degen Blue Cobolt came up to bid. I was the only bidder :) $60. What a steal! Had the fish for around 5 years. In Feb of 91 it was the cover of TFH. 135721.

Fantastic story...I remember that issue...

[sanjay21]

Peppering is one of those topics that is hard to come to consensus on. The hobby in general has gravitated towards less and less on pigeon bloods through selective breeding and out crossing to Goldens. Its kind of a strange situation because peppering is one of the traits that defines a pigeon blood. So to remove peppering is kind of like destroying the Pb strain.. At some point when does a pigeon blood stop being a pigeon blood ? Thats a related question here thats not been defined by anyone.

Generally , The level of acceptible peppering is different for everyone. I think your fish looks fine. Looks healthy and has nice shape.Yours is pretty clean. I have owned fish that were so peppered over the years that they would be culls by todays standards.. Back then they were normal.

Clean pigeons are very common now... but heavily peppered ones still get sold.... they really shouldnt. Novices buy them and then are disappointed as they learn more about the hobby.

Personally I dont mibd a little peppering on a pigeon...but I have to admit even I have shifted more towards the less is best camp over the years.

Just my thoughts,
Al

I like that you mentioned "peppering is one of the traits that defines a pigeon blood. " This question is raised often on Facebook pages and these days most folks jump right in saying poor "genetics/quality" ..

I also prefer less/no peppering :)

[Willie]

What is considered an “acceptable” amount of peppering in PBs these days? How about this guy? 135698. I like clean pigeon bloods but my kids like their “freckles” like their dad has.

The Pigeon Blood trait is essentially a disruption of the pigment carry cells that would otherwise form vertical stripes in conventional (non-PB) discus. In a cross between PB and non-PB discus, the fry will segregate for this mutation. At the 1/2" - 3/4" stage, you can easily pull the PB fry because they appear clear (stripeless). With age, the pigment producing cells become active, producing the peppering associated with the Pigeon Blood trait. Back when I was doing a lot of breeding, I would count the PB and non-PB fry from each cross to figure out the genetic pattern. There were no simple ratios so the trait is produced by more than a single gene.

The mutation appears to have spontaneously arisen in Asia and it's a tribute to the Asian breeders that they kept working on this trait to produce the fantastic strains we have now. Essentially all the full yellow and red discus were produced by breeding away from the peppering to uncover the colors normally blocked by the dark pigment. (Yes, I know there are exceptions to this statement.) The fact that all the newest strains come from Asia today stems from early adoption of the Pigeon Blood mutation.

This particular fish is interesting in that peppering normally appears in the chin (beneath the mouth). Getting rid of peppering in this area was particularly difficult. Had not seen a fish with peppering in the mouth and the forehead, but not in the chin. Hope you can spawn this one.

[CliffsDiscus]

I cross out the Pigeon blood with the albino back in 2007 for a cleaner look. Everyone knows that in 2007 there were no albinos in the US, as Asian breeders will not release any till they are flooded with these fish witch took a few more years.

Cliff

[Sabrina]

This is an interesting thread, some good reading :)

Of the 3 PB's in the pet store I chose these 2 below as the 3rd one was peppered up already. I don't like the look of pepper on them. I thought it had something to do with dark tanks causing the pepper, which my QT tank has black tint on the sides, second hand, came like that. So I am worried my 2 will pepper up, I noticed a few tiny black dots on them today..
I've only had 1 PB once before, and I had to give it away, it was a crazy bully.
Reading the replies here, for some reason I thought about red head humans, they have lots of freckles, perhaps it is genetics, lighter colours having peppering maybe due to their sensitivity to light due to their pale skin pigmentation?

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[brewmaster15]

The pbs you have Sabrina look pretty clean and since they are in a dark tank and not showing pepper its likely they will be pretty clean as adults. Aside from that alot of the fish that are bred overseas and supplied to Petstore markets tend to be low grade fish, mutts, poor crosses and older lines. Thats not to say you cant get nice fish out of them, its just less likely. I had some pet shop discus in my early years that turned out very nice.. Ive had some more expensive ones from good sellers that were really junk.

I also should qualify my comments here.. not all petshop discus are low end ones..we have been seeing more shops focus on Discus that are much better quality, particularly since many now have online store capabilities which expands their market reach.. vs just having walk ins.

[Sabrina]

Thanks Al,

I agree that the pet store discus are of a lower quality, I have had many of them over the years. It is a hit and miss situation buying them from pet stores, and yes you can get the odd one turn out nice.