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MichiganDiscusEnthusiast
07-06-2023, 11:50 AM
As stated in the title I’m having some issues with my breeding pair and am now weighing some options out but would like some input.

Here is the backstory:
About a year ago I bought some assorted discus from a few trade shows over the course of a couple of months and added them to my tank. After some issues with my heater and losing a few fish I then ordered some discus online because I wanted to see what could happen and if shipping live fish was even a viable option. To my pleasant surprise they came and after a month of quarantine were added to my community tank to replace the discus I lost to the issue with the heater.

I finally was getting everything down from the water parameters to the food and the discus showed their appreciation. A few months down the line I woke up to eggs on my back wall and one of my new fish guarding them heavily. After observing some aggression from one of the other fish in the tank towards the other fish I knew who the father was. It ended up being a blue cobalt for the mother and a red checkerboard for the father.

I did some research online and began setting up my breeding tank. I cycled it with media from the community tank for 2 weeks to establish a nitrogen cycle. I don’t age my water so letting it set for 2 weeks with bits of food and a seasoned filter was the best I could do.

The clutch inevitably failed in the community tank due to the high ppm in the water or the father not doing his job but I digress. I removed the fish and added them to my new breeding tank.

After a week they laid another clutch that failed and to the internet I went. It was at this point I discovered reverse osmosis water.

Living in an apartment and running an RO system had to be the hardest thing to come up with but I managed to find something that works for me.

The next water change I did was with the RO unit after I let it run for a half hour to let the toxins drain out. The fish immediately brightened up it seemed. It wasn’t but a few days later they laid another clutch. My ppm was still really high as I was only doing a 25% change out to adjust them so the eggs calcified and became white.

This is where my aggressive male comes into play. As soon as cone duty comes my girl is the first to tend to them but only for a few minutes before she is chased off by my male. He then takes full control over the eggs. It’s scary aggressive at first but as the eggs age he seems to calm down but the chasing and ramming still ensues.

After the eggs were eaten it took them a few days to become docile with one another.

It’s now a week later and I got another clutch last night for the first time within what my research indicates as the “ideal parameters” for eggs. 6.9 ph, 60 ppm, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and 0 nitrates.

The male did the same as last time by chasing her off the eggs after they were first laid and has held control over the eggs since. The chasing is aggressive for the first couple of hours but as time goes on he will still chase her off but not nearly as far from the cone or as fast as when the eggs are first laid.

It’s gotten to the point where my female is hiding in one corner of the tank to avoid confrontation.

After doing some testing on my water this morning I’ve discovered my ph has started to drop so I’m doing a changeout with some tap water to raise the conductivity to give the ph something to buffer on. This also may be afflicting my female and causing her to be so off. Could the eggs maybe have something to do with the vast PH drop overnight?

So now that you’re caught up my question is this:

To combat the males aggression do I pull the male after the babies have hatched(if they hatch) so that mom can take full care ? Or do I let them sort it out so that they can maybe share the parenting responsibilities? Im almost fully decided I’m going to pull the male from the breeding tank and put another potential male in the tank with her. If anything at all I don’t like his aggression and don’t want that to be a reproduced gene.

As a bonus question to any water specialists I’d like my ph to hold at 6.0 for preference and experimental continuity reasons and as of this morning Im fighting it at 5.5.

Any recommendations on what I can do for the water or my aggressive male so that I can raise some beautiful fry?

Pictures are of my breeding tank and the female and male doing as what I described above.


Thanks in advance and I’d love to answer any and all questions I may have missed in my report.

brewmaster15
07-06-2023, 12:56 PM
Hi Kyle,
I have good news and bad news for you.. well not really bad but ..

Its not a water issue, you are doing way more than you need to with those parameters and the tank looks fine.I can make a few suggestions there.

The problem is you don't have a bonded pair. You have a male and female each breeding but not tending together . They spawn and then fight over the eggs forgetting they are a pair. It happens alot with young pairs and sometimes they work it out themselves, sometimes not so much. The easiest thing for you to do is put the pair back in the main tank and let them mature and form a solid bond defending against the other tank mates. You can also leave them in the breeding tank and use a screen to divide them after they breed, Sometimes the fry will swim from one side to the other of the screen..Sometimes we pull one parent and let the other raise them.

You pair looks on the small side so may just be not fully mature. Females can start laying eggs at 6 -12 months, often males don't mature for 1-2 years into good breeders.


One note on the tank layout. most of us just use sponges for our breeders, Power filters may make affect the fertilization of the eggs its thought ( no real proof) but air driven sponges like Hydro 5 are great for breeders.

al

brewmaster15
07-06-2023, 01:01 PM
s a bonus question to any water specialists I’d like my ph to hold at 6.0 for preference and experimental continuity reasons and as of this morning Im fighting it at 5.5. water changes will do that for you, in Ro water, pH drifts down over time. You can also a small amount of Baking soda for buffer , but I wouldn't. I would use water changes from your tap to add back some kH( Buffer) If the drift is really bad you can also filter through some crushed coral but your water doesn't sound that bad.

al

MichiganDiscusEnthusiast
07-06-2023, 01:28 PM
Hi Kyle,
I have good news and bad news for you.. well not really bad but ..

Its not a water issue, you are doing way more than you need to with those parameters and the tank looks fine.I can make a few suggestions there.

The problem is you don't have a bonded pair. You have a male and female each breeding but not tending together . They spawn and then fight over the eggs forgetting they are a pair. It happens alot with young pairs and sometimes they work it out themselves, sometimes not so much. The easiest thing for you to do is put the pair back in the main tank and let them mature and form a solid bond defending against the other tank mates. You can also leave them in the breeding tank and use a screen to divide them after they breed, Sometimes the fry will swim from one side to the other of the screen..Sometimes we pull one parent and let the other raise them.

You pair looks on the small side so may just be not fully mature. Females can start laying eggs at 6 -12 months, often males don't mature for 1-2 years into good breeders.


One note on the tank layout. most of us just use sponges for our breeders, Power filters may make affect the fertilization of the eggs its thought ( no real proof) but air driven sponges like Hydro 5 are great for breeders.

al


Ah; so when they say a bonded pair they are implying that they raise they eggs together. Thank you I was ignorant to the phrasing but I really enjoy learning in this hobby.

As far as putting them back in the community tank I think that may be the way to go. I will let nature run its course for this clutch and see what happens but if it amounts to nothing then back in the community tank for some time to age.

This will negate any ph issues I have because the systems are independent of one another and I will then be able to monitor and adjust the breeding tank without having to worry about the health of these two. It will also allow me to simplify this tank by keeping a hydro 5 in the tank as apposed to a canister and sponge. Any more suggestions on a good breeding tank would be not only appreciated but wanted.

I value your input and will definitely try to keep up on updates via this thread.

CliffsDiscus
07-06-2023, 03:27 PM
Can you separate the pair after spawning by placing a divider in the tank. Let the female take care of the eggs, she may be a single parent raising the fry. In three days the eggs should turn dark indication of fertilized eggs. Aggression in the male can be
from inbreeding, hormones or plain being mean, but careful the male can kill the female at worst cases.


Good Luck,

MichiganDiscusEnthusiast
07-07-2023, 02:02 PM
As stated in the title I’m having some issues with my breeding pair and am now weighing some options out but would like some input.

Here is the backstory:
About a year ago I bought some assorted discus from a few trade shows over the course of a couple of months and added them to my tank. After some issues with my heater and losing a few fish I then ordered some discus online because I wanted to see what could happen and if shipping live fish was even a viable option. To my pleasant surprise they came and after a month of quarantine were added to my community tank to replace the discus I lost to the issue with the heater.

I finally was getting everything down from the water parameters to the food and the discus showed their appreciation. A few months down the line I woke up to eggs on my back wall and one of my new fish guarding them heavily. After observing some aggression from one of the other fish in the tank towards the other fish I knew who the father was. It ended up being a blue cobalt for the mother and a red checkerboard for the father.

I did some research online and began setting up my breeding tank. I cycled it with media from the community tank for 2 weeks to establish a nitrogen cycle. I don’t age my water so letting it set for 2 weeks with bits of food and a seasoned filter was the best I could do.

The clutch inevitably failed in the community tank due to the high ppm in the water or the father not doing his job but I digress. I removed the fish and added them to my new breeding tank.

After a week they laid another clutch that failed and to the internet I went. It was at this point I discovered reverse osmosis water.

Living in an apartment and running an RO system had to be the hardest thing to come up with but I managed to find something that works for me.

The next water change I did was with the RO unit after I let it run for a half hour to let the toxins drain out. The fish immediately brightened up it seemed. It wasn’t but a few days later they laid another clutch. My ppm was still really high as I was only doing a 25% change out to adjust them so the eggs calcified and became white.

This is where my aggressive male comes into play. As soon as cone duty comes my girl is the first to tend to them but only for a few minutes before she is chased off by my male. He then takes full control over the eggs. It’s scary aggressive at first but as the eggs age he seems to calm down but the chasing and ramming still ensues.

After the eggs were eaten it took them a few days to become docile with one another.

It’s now a week later and I got another clutch last night for the first time within what my research indicates as the “ideal parameters” for eggs. 6.9 ph, 60 ppm, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and 0 nitrates.

The male did the same as last time by chasing her off the eggs after they were first laid and has held control over the eggs since. The chasing is aggressive for the first couple of hours but as time goes on he will still chase her off but not nearly as far from the cone or as fast as when the eggs are first laid.

It’s gotten to the point where my female is hiding in one corner of the tank to avoid confrontation.

After doing some testing on my water this morning I’ve discovered my ph has started to drop so I’m doing a changeout with some tap water to raise the conductivity to give the ph something to buffer on. This also may be afflicting my female and causing her to be so off. Could the eggs maybe have something to do with the vast PH drop overnight?

So now that you’re caught up my question is this:

To combat the males aggression do I pull the male after the babies have hatched(if they hatch) so that mom can take full care ? Or do I let them sort it out so that they can maybe share the parenting responsibilities? Im almost fully decided I’m going to pull the male from the breeding tank and put another potential male in the tank with her. If anything at all I don’t like his aggression and don’t want that to be a reproduced gene.

As a bonus question to any water specialists I’d like my ph to hold at 6.0 for preference and experimental continuity reasons and as of this morning Im fighting it at 5.5.

Any recommendations on what I can do for the water or my aggressive male so that I can raise some beautiful fry?

Pictures are of my breeding tank and the female and male doing as what I described above.


Thanks in advance and I’d love to answer any and all questions I may have missed in my report.


It has officially been 48 hours since the spawn was first laid and the eggs have now become mostly white on the outside with a few that still seem to be a tan/terracotta color; at this point the clutch doesn’t seem viable to me from everything I’ve read. Planning on moving the pair back into the community tank and refining this breeding concept a little better while these two age and mature a little more.

From my understanding in what I’ve read and seen online the act of defending the clutch of eggs from exterior threats should help build the relationship. Who knows, she may try to pair off with one of my other boys.

I will attach a picture of the clutch as it sits right now and I’d love to hear the input on if I should wait and see or start the process of acclimating them to the community water.

CliffsDiscus
07-07-2023, 02:26 PM
Mostly white but you still have to wait another 24 hours to see if any got fertile.

MichiganDiscusEnthusiast
07-08-2023, 07:50 PM
Update: the aggression continues but I didn’t expect it to stop.

I was unable to find a divider that would work for me and will have to resort to making one in the future I think.

But if these are fertilized tonight’s the night and I dropped the water a few inches in preparation. I’m not sure what constitutes as a normal looking clutch but if someone could tell me what colors I’m looking for in a timeline so that I can better diagnose if the eggs are fertile or not I would love to buy you lunch.

Momma hasn’t spent any time fanning the eggs due to the males aggression. I plan on moving them both back into the community tank tomorrow if the eggs are gone in the morning.

If they end up with the fry I’m going to wait a few days and see how long they last; if for some reason things start looking up I will have to move the parents back to the community tank and leave the babies in the breeding tank to accommodate my current space .

Any advice is always appreciated and welcomed.

Thanks all,
Kyle 135923