To act or not to act, that is the question

[JasPR61]

I'm new to this forum but I've been active in the fish hobby ( all of the hobbies on the spectrum) for all of my life, which is a considerable period of time. I also have veterinary background and was very active in koi health matters, starting a hotline and doing house calls, etc--so I know fish.
But discus are humbling! Tropicals seem to go from robust health to depression and death. And my marine display size fish always give warnings. But discus seem to go from happy to sulking in the course of a day! And of course, I know appetite issues are legendary and so typical that I'm sure the experienced keeper takes it as normal and part of it all.
What I have learned in my time on health hotlines and during house calls ( usually either water Q issues or parasites) is that sometimes acting too soon is counter productive ( stress of moving making things worse or trashing an otherwise good system with meds) and acting too late is -- well-- too late.
But discus are confounding in this regard. When is too soon-- over reacting verses waiting too long and a death sentence? I'd like to hear from established keepers what is the line for them? Specifically when a discus is sulking and spitting out food but otherwise pretty normal, albeit some moments of self isolation in the plants. When to waiting it out vs. reaching for meds and moving a fish into Q?
I find it odd that people are doing deworming regularly in an established school. If there are symptoms so be it. But to do deworming 4 times a year seems crazy to me?

[brewmaster15]

Welcome to SimplyDiscus!

You raise some interesting questions.. first off let me address this."
I find it odd that people are doing deworming regularly in an established school. If there are symptoms so be it. But to do deworming 4 times a year seems crazy to me?" That is not something anyone should do. Its pointless. Unless someone is skipping common sense quarantine theres no reason to deworm discus at any regular interval. Done once and correctly is alls thats ever needed unless you re-introduce worms by poor quarantine.
Pet Peeve of mine. Ranking second only to regular use of pp(potassium permanganate)

As for your question as to when to act? I think sooner with discus is better but that doesnt necessarily mean medication. It could mean simple actions like better husbandry, increased water changes, improve the diet,remove stress factors. Personally when I try to help someone with discus I try and get as much detail as I can because multiple things can cause similar symptoms. I also like to see the fish and tank mates pictures as it helps me diagnose whats possibly the problem.

Sorry I cant give you a better answer... but as you alluded.. Discus can be complicated.. they are also remarkably easy when you give them what they need.

Hth,
Al

[fljones3]

I have found that "better husbandry, increased water changes" are the non-negotiables. Discus involves more time but the rewards overwhelm the time involved.

[Vanman]

Bare bottom tanks, good food, daily large water changes, and daily bottom siphoning worked well for us 30 years ago. We just got our first Discus in thirty years a month ago.

We are going with what worked in the past and it is working for us so far this time.

[CliffsDiscus]

House calls are usually to late, most of the time(90%) the hobbyist will fail to make daily or weekly water changes untill they really see that their Discus are sick, then they will call you, too late. You can take the fish out of the water but you can't take the river out of the fish.

As far as deworming, medicate when neccessary, otherwise it like taking an aspirin when you don't have a headache.

[Iminit]

Lots of mis information out there. Many looking for the quick fix. That’s why meds are overused. Water changes and good food is best. I’ve found if qting a fish a 20g ful with tank water and a sponge or filter media from main tank works perfect for a discus that needs to be moved. Sometimes its just daily water changes or even raising the temp bring them back. In a 20g it’s easy to use meds. Most common meds would be metro or prazi.
Great group here with years of knowledge. Ask lots of questions!

[brewmaster15]

I also have veterinary background and was very active in koi health matters, starting a hotline and doing house calls, etc--so I know fish. I would be very interested in learning more about this. It sounds like you must have been very well known in koi circles and have dealt with many disease issues that koi encounter.Some of these are similar or the same as discus.

Thanks,
Al

[JasPR61]

Thanks for the response Al. So I have a school of 13 and they have been in this new aquarium for one month and a few days. The tank itself was set up 2 1/2 months ago and ran fishless and cycled with media from existing established aquaria and 'fed' ammonium chloride during the first 6 weeks. The tank is 167 gallons and filtered with three ehiem canisters, inline heaters ( 82.3 F) pH 7.0, zero ammonia and nitrates 5-10ppm. Water changes 30% twice a week with well water. I do have the ability to cut the well water with RO water. Anyway, the 13 new discus were put in on July 4th weekend. They were all in great shape and eat well and established their pecking order with no worrisome aggression. Beef heart and frozen blood worms and frozen mysis shrimp with some pellets-- two meals a day and rotation of foods- but beef heart is the main everyday diet. The school broke into 3 top bosses and 2 bottom shy ones with the other 8 in the middle with aggression very spread out and nothing serious. The top three get first pick of foods and hostility is down to short chases away when they see me and the food. OK so one of the top three is a pig and often his belly is quite full. Recently he moved away and sits towards the back and under some floating Riccia. He comes to eat although not as aggressively and quickly as before. He takes in food, chews it and spits it out. After three days of doing this, he is now taking food again and ingesting some but also spitting out some bits. IF I put in live black worms he does eat them with no spit outs. So here is the question-- to quarantine and treat or to just monitor? I am a believer in not acting too fast with meds.

[JasPR61]

Yes it was my passion for 30 years- ran ZNA in America as District Chairman of North America. Was an international certified koi judge for AKCA and ZNA. I ran the committee on KHV research for several years and worked with the early researchers of that deadly disease. It was a real learning experience. I used to do a lot of microscope work on the house calls- identifying flukes, Costia, trichodina etc and diagnosing KHV ( sadly). it was a great experience and it took me to Japan every year for 23 years. Wonderful adventures in the mountains of Yamakoshi

[brewmaster15]

Yes it was my passion for 30 years- ran ZNA in America as District Chairman of North America. Was an international certified koi judge for AKCA and ZNA. I ran the committee on KHV research for several years and worked with the early researchers of that deadly disease. It was a real learning experience. I used to do a lot of microscope work on the house calls- identifying flukes, Costia, trichodina etc and diagnosing KHV ( sadly). it was a great experience and it took me to Japan every year for 23 years. Wonderful adventures in the mountains of Yamakoshi

That sounds like a very interesting 30 years indeed! Thanks for sharing with us.

On your current fish issues. Your set up sounds very good as does your parameters. Can I ask you to post some images of the tank, the healthy fish and the one thats not doing well? We can tell alot about whats going on in the tank from images plus asking the right questions.
Do you know what strains you have?

Al

[rickztahone]

Yes it was my passion for 30 years- ran ZNA in America as District Chairman of North America. Was an international certified koi judge for AKCA and ZNA. I ran the committee on KHV research for several years and worked with the early researchers of that deadly disease. It was a real learning experience. I used to do a lot of microscope work on the house calls- identifying flukes, Costia, trichodina etc and diagnosing KHV ( sadly). it was a great experience and it took me to Japan every year for 23 years. Wonderful adventures in the mountains of Yamakoshi
How very interesting! This merits a thread of its own :)

[Iminit]

Ok all looks good but the live black worms. I haven’t used live black worms since the 90s. Was told than they can carry many parasites and was the reason I as losing fish. Stopped feed the live worms and went to granules (back then it was tetra bits). Took awhile for the discus to start eating the bits. But once they did no more problems. Now I feed freeze dried black worms and they work great.

[LizStreithorst]

Tom, you are confusing live blackworms with Tubifex. Live blackworms are clean as long as they are kept healthy.

[Iminit]

Liz I’m not. Live black worms I would rinse out in cold water and a large Tupperware. The creatures that were in that Tupperware were leaches,worms,slugs and those were what you could see. I do read now that many feed live ones and grow them. So maybe they are cleaner now but back in the 90s they were referred to as sewer worms. Yes I remember the live tubiflex worm too. Just as bad if not worse. Nobody was growing there own and they both were supplied by wholesalers.