Convince me barebottom can look great

[Jlinzmaier]

Hello everyone.

I know a barebottom tank would be the easiest way to manage waste in a discus tank. Im just struggling with the aesthetics.

The most beautiful discus tank I can envision (solely my opinion of what I think is beautiful) is a large discus tank with vibrant green plants, some driftwood, and some black rock structures on a pristine fine white sand bed. Maybe that vision is absolutely not conducive to the reality of discus keeping, but maybe I can pull it off. What I don't want is for my fish to struggle because I'm possibly trying to push the limits too far.

I would consider a barebottom tank if someone could show me how to make it beautiful opposed to a plain glass box with beautiful fish and perfect water parameters.

I have a tank that's 8ftx3ftx2ft with overflow to a sump. Right now I just have a few community fish while I experiment a bit and slowly work towards conditions ideal for discus. Hoping to have the tank ready for discus next spring so I've got lots of time to work out the details.

Any input is greatly appreciated!!

Jeremy

[Alexxxsv]

I tried the bare bottom and eventually switched over to sand lol but I did enjoy bare bottom and something that really helped me was having clay pots with natural plants and glueing anubias and Java fern to my driftwood center pieces.

[Sandip]

You can have barebotton with driftwood. You can even go further with plants tied to the driftwood and still keep the tank bare bottom.
Search the old threads in our forum there are many such examples:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?126641-55-gallon-20-gallon-sump-project-%28current-active-discus-tank%29
Or like this: (not my tanks or pic)
136356

[brewmaster15]

Hi Jeremy,
What you want to see in the tank and whats best for the care of the discus aren't necessarily the same thing. Unfortunately discus have been portrayed in densely planted tanks alot and thats just not their natural habitat.

Its possible to find happy mediums though. .. Alot of discus keepers use planters in the tank...
Check out .. https://youtu.be/adt7-1quH88
Roland has a nice set of vids on his tank.

Tom has practical experiences here keeping his discus in planted tanks..

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?136539-Pics-of-my-planted-discus-tank. I would suggest reading through his threads.

Personally,
I think a skilled hobbyist can keep adult discus fine in well thought out planted tank provided they take the time to maintain it and their water is good.. I think a thin layer of sand and some driftwood with tied on plants .. maybe a planter or two.and some pothos roots in the water compliments Discus very well.

I prefer my discus in Bare glass boxes though as it keeps me honest in their care.. I cant lie about my maintenance... substrate and plants hide alot...makes it easy to forget to clean it.

One note. .. if buying small discus. Start bare tank, and once adults,add substrate and plants. Juvenile discus are less forgiving and prone to stunting.

Al

[Willie]

A beautiful discus tank needs to have beautiful discus. The way to do that is to start with a bare bottom tank.

[Iminit]

So much out there on how to keep discus! First thing is water changes. You must change water! So much bs about not needing water changes it hard to follow Facebook. Planted tanks just are more demanding! Not just water changing your also gravel vacuuming at every water change. Must keep the gravel clean! Plants contrary to what’s said grow great in clean gravel! Read my thread in the planted section. Thing is even cleaned things can happen. Especially with new fish. A planted tank is almost impossible to medicate. So it’s a must to qt any new fish you plan on adding. This goes for any tank! What I do now with discus is I put my plants in pots.
Next yes discus don’t come from densely planted areas! They come from bare vats in Asia ;). These fish are so far removed from their natural habitats that they’d die within minutes of landing in the amazon:). So lots can be done but you’ve got to be willing to do the extra work!136357 my 180 next my 125136358

[Charlyc11]

Nobody has to convince you that will be up to you. Easy maintenance plus clean look. This is a new tank so I have two more Discus in QT that are going after they finish with their spawn.

136359

136360

136361

[Iminit]

Looks great!! But what size are those cubes! They also look great down there!

[Charlyc11]

Looks great!! But what size are those cubes! They also look great down there!

Those are "6" gallon cubes got them at Petco, the two pairs are ready to depart to MA tomorrow.

[farebox]

I really love Iminit's tanks and just think a bare bottom can be better once you get used to the look. Here's the latest video of my tank: https://youtu.be/3RiE5f0fqUw
Then again it's all up to you and what you want in the end, good luck with your choice.

[Jlinzmaier]

Thank you all! I appreciate the input. I'm going to move forward experimenting with all kinds of options and see if I can find a scenario that is great for discus health and see what I can come up with. It's really not hard to remove a sand bed and experiment with different plants that don't require a dense substrate or simply pot the plants. You've all given me lots of ideas and I'm grateful.

[Jlinzmaier]

Any efficient detrivores and sand stirring critters good with discus??

Any sand bed roombas been developed yet?? Lol!

Jeremy

[Spunky424]

Nobody has to convince you that will be up to you. Easy maintenance plus clean look. This is a new tank so I have two more Discus in QT that are going after they finish with their spawn.

136359

136360

136361

may i ask how big that tank is and how big is the sump? i'm in the middle of trying to figure out what size sump is good for my 90 gallon ADA tank. Thanks! and it all looks great.

[Charlyc11]

This a wet/dry for a 125 gallon tank I think wd-125 you can get them cheap used mine was $80 with a overflow box. The tank is Clear for life 125S. Tom (Iminit) has more knowledge on the wet dy and he got me into them. The one I have would be great for a 90 also no need to spend a small fortune on a sump.

[Adamski77]

I struggled with the same question... not a great fan of bare bottom (personal preference) so when preparing for set-up I was thinking I want kind of what you described. I don't know if I did right or wrong... for now tank has been running for 3 months... getting more and more stable as I learn and tweak some set up elements (temperature, lights, feeding, water change schedule, etc.)... but my discus seem to be very happy for now.
I don't think I'm necessarily super busy with maintenance but if you stay on the top of your schedule it is possible.
This was my choice and obviously arguable with experts (I'm by no means one)... but wanted to chime in and say it's possible and not really over-kill.

136383

136384

[brewmaster15]

I struggled with the same question... not a great fan of bare bottom (personal preference) so when preparing for set-up I was thinking I want kind of what you described. I don't know if I did right or wrong... for now tank has been running for 3 months... getting more and more stable as I learn and tweak some set up elements (temperature, lights, feeding, water change schedule, etc.)... but my discus seem to be very happy for now.
I don't think I'm necessarily super busy with maintenance but if you stay on the top of your schedule it is possible.
This was my choice and obviously arguable with experts (I'm by no means one)... but wanted to chime in and say it's possible and not really over-kill.

136383

136384

Hi,
Welcome to SimplyDiscus! Your tank looks very good indeed. At 3 months running its a good sign that your fish are doing well.. I would really like to you track this tanks progress here.. http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?365-Our-Tank-Journals

Share the ups and downs as time progresses. Its the best way for others to see what works and didnt for someone.

One note I will make here on your tanks.. its really critical that you quarantine new livestock in a setup like yours. Treating a parasite or disease issue in substrate tanks is very hard.

Hth,
Al

[Adamski77]

Thank you for warm welcome and your supporting comments... very comforting. I absolutely agree on the quarantine... the way I did it actually was I bought all other fish prior to discus and "quarantine" them in my tank for 2 weeks... than added discus, which I knew is from trustful source. Never guaranteed but this was in my mind safest approach. For now the crew is set but appreciate your advise and obviously 100% applicable in case more ideas come to my mind ;)

Will also get to the other thread and catch up on progress.

[Iminit]

Yes major thing with planted tanks. If something gets in there they are next to impossible to treat. My advice is bare bottom. Both being new to discus you really should first get used to keeping these fish. They are not easy to keep. So many fail or just struggle because they try to much at once. Planted tanks also are not easy. There is a balance needed to keep plants alive. First plants need to adjust to the warm water. Most plants will melt when added. Then grow back more accustomed to your water. 136406. This tank was all my own plants taken from my other tanks and grown in that tank with the discus.

[Adamski77]

Outstandingly beautiful! Need to spread this joy of non-bare bottom tanks around... they are really so good looking!

[mleibowi]

I’m with OP. I don’t like bare bottom format display and prefer sand, wood and some plants on wood. Minimalist but not overly minimal

[Raul-7]

I agree; I never liked barebottom unless strictly for quarantine or breeding.

In a display it looks out of place, IMHO, although I understand the reasoning's behind it.


There's no way you can compare something like this-
136507



To this-
136506

[brewmaster15]

I agree; I never liked barebottom unless strictly for quarantine or breeding.

In a display it looks out of place, IMHO, although I understand the reasoning's behind it.


There's no way you can compare something like this-
136507



To this-
136506
I will take bare bottom healthy tank of discus on the top any day over the bottom tank.

The bottom tank is lovely.. First thing I would do if I owned it is put a fairy garden in it and maybe a statue of a white unicorn. :) You couldnt pay me to put a discus in it.

Al

[Raul-7]

I will take bare bottom healthy tank of discus on the top any day over the bottom tank.

The bottom tank is lovely.. First thing I would do if I owned it is put a fairy garden in it and maybe a statue of a white unicorn. :) You couldnt pay me to put a discus in it.

Al

I knew you'd say it, well it is small [75G] and it wasn't designed with Discus in mind. :)



How about this one? 2400G [those are full grown Altums].

136508

[brewmaster15]

Raul,
I know this is lost on you but people that keep their discus in a bare tank dont see it as Bare. They see their discus .. which is what they value. You see a bare glass box... I see the discus.

Scaped tanks, biotopes, and planted tanks are all welland good if thats what the owner wants to see..its not what the discus needs and can often harm the discus. You can do both.. most fail trying because to have one means neglecting the other.

Ive had this conversation a thousand times with novices to discus. Try as I may I can not always get through to them. That does bother me as I know whats instore for their discus is not a good future.

Oh and yes the Altum tank is beautiful..

[Iminit]

Well for me all 3 of those tanks are wrong for discus. First one is a typical Facebook “looks how many discus I have” tank. There are at the least 12 to many discus in that tank. 12-15 would be more than enough. The next tank is a show tank to be rated. These are for the show. Most are taken apart after the show and another built. The last is a great looking tank. Huge! But still no good for discus :).

My tank yesterday after water change :)136512 there’s 14 in there and it’s a 180 :).

[Adamski77]

Mine this morning after water change… it’s personal… but I love my discus in green

136513

[farebox]

I totally agree with Iminit, but people will do what they want regardless of what you tell them. Good luck with your tank just update us all about three years down the road and how your fish have grown and remain healthy over time. Love and peace out.

[Raul-7]

Raul,
I know this is lost on you but people that keep their discus in a bare tank dont see it as Bare. They see their discus .. which is what they value. You see a bare glass box... I see the discus.

Scaped tanks, biotopes, and planted tanks are all welland good if thats what the owner wants to see..its not what the discus needs and can often harm the discus. You can do both.. most fail trying because to have one means neglecting the other.

Ive had this conversation a thousand times with novices to discus. Try as I may I can not always get through to them. That does bother me as I know whats instore for their discus is not a good future.

Oh and yes the Altum tank is beautiful..

Ok, I agree keeping plants and Discus healthy is not easy for a novice.


How about we come to a middleground. :)

136521

This is both beautiful, natural and simple. Also keeps the focus on the fish.

[Iminit]

Raul :D nobody is telling you how to do it. Yes there are many options! But in the end it’s what you want to do. My advice is learn the fish first. Learn how to take care of discus. Than if you’re ready to try more go for it.

[brewmaster15]

Tom summarized it perfectly. Its far easier to learn how to care for the fish first in a bare bottom tank where the parameters are easy to control .Then if you want to try jazzing your tank up.. go for it. From all our discussions so far its clear you have a certain look you want and a certain ethos you believe in. Its not that you cant have those things but You should really learn from the forum members here what definitely works ..use it as your starting point.
Al

[Raul-7]

Raul :D nobody is telling you how to do it. Yes there are many options! But in the end it’s what you want to do. My advice is learn the fish first. Learn how to take care of discus. Than if you’re ready to try more go for it.

Thank you.

I understand that husbandry is of primary importance. Trust me I've learned the hard way with Hypancistrus sp. :(


But I'm much better now. With the advent of the Apex - it's made husbandry almost on auto-pilot.


Tom summarized it perfectly. Its far easier to learn how to care for the fish first in a bare bottom tank where the parameters are easy to control .Then if you want to try jazzing your tank up.. go for it. From all our discussions so far its clear you have a certain look you want and a certain ethos you believe in. Its not that you cant have those things but You should really learn from the forum members here what definitely works ..use it as your starting point.
Al

I understand where you are coming from, I do not disregard any advice given to me. But I have bred Hypancistrus sp. before and know the importance of water quality, parameters, water changes, temperature, etc.

Trust me, I'm not the kind to cut corners. My Discus setup will have UV, auto-waterchanges, sump, redundancy, etc. I picked up a lot of that from being on Reef forums. Shortcuts can only take you so far.

[Iminit]

Apex?? What is the Apex? This isn’t some auto drip water changer is it?

[Iminit]

Discus are so far from reefs! Automated systems don’t work :). Ask all the reefkeepers who gave up on discus! Live and learn :).

[Raul-7]

Apex?? What is the Apex? This isn’t some auto drip water changer is it?


Discus are so far from reefs! Automated systems don’t work :). Ask all the reefkeepers who gave up on discus! Live and learn :).

https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/apex-controller-system-neptune-systems.html

They do work. I had everything automated; including lightning, return pump, UV sterilizer, oxygenation pump, water changes, RO unit, etc. Minimizes the amount of mistakes you can make.

Apex is used by many commercial operations. It's track record speaks for itself.

I'd never setup another large aquarium without one.

[Iminit]

Raul give it a try! Or sell all the automated stuff and do it correctly. Yea it works for reefs. But if someone had succeeded don’t you think everyone would be using them? You’re not the first to fall down this “oh I’ve got reef equipment” path. Discus take hands on time.

[Sandip]

Thank you.

I understand that husbandry is of primary importance. Trust me I've learned the hard way with Hypancistrus sp. :(


But I'm much better now. With the advent of the Apex - it's made husbandry almost on auto-pilot.



I understand where you are coming from, I do not disregard any advice given to me. But I have bred Hypancistrus sp. before and know the importance of water quality, parameters, water changes, temperature, etc.

Trust me, I'm not the kind to cut corners. My Discus setup will have UV, auto-waterchanges, sump, redundancy, etc. I picked up a lot of that from being on Reef forums. Shortcuts can only take you so far.

I use Apex El, for controlling almost everything except water changes. To be honest, APEX does not add much value in a discus only tank. I used it, because I had it laying around from my reef days.
The automated water change using a apex doser is slow and makes things way too complicated. Just a bucket, siphon and 15 minutes of your time is all you need to change water. Ok maybe a barrel to store water. But you get the picture.
BTW, discus and reef tanks are completely different and just because one is competent with reef has got nothing to do with keeping discus.

[Raul-7]

Raul give it a try! Or sell all the automated stuff and do it correctly. Yea it works for reefs. But if someone had succeeded don’t you think everyone would be using them? You’re not the first to fall down this “oh I’ve got reef equipment” path. Discus take hands on time.

Having automation does not make someone an expert at husbandry. It makes your life easier. Why should I use a python to change the water; when pumps can do the same job in less time? Why not automate?

Plenty of people use an Apex, the company has been around for 25 years. It's just most people in the FW hobby are cheap [nothing against it].


I use Apex El, for controlling almost everything except water changes. To be honest, APEX does not add much value in a discus only tank. I used it, because I had it laying around from my reef days.
The automated water change using a apex doser is slow and makes things way too complicated. Just a bucket, siphon and 15 minutes of your time is all you need to change water. Ok maybe a barrel to store water. But you get the picture.
BTW, discus and reef tanks are completely different and just because one is competent with reef has got nothing to do with keeping discus.

I never kept reefs, BTW.

But my point is that compared to FW - they do not cut corners [or only a minority do]. They go all out on equipment. I like that mindset. I like redundancy and over-filtration.

So I learned to do it right the first time; rather than make mistakes.

I had automated WCs using an Apex. If done via pumps - it much faster and hands free. Now I'm not suggesting everyone go out and buy an Apex. But it does a lot of things right. And can make your life easier.

I never claimed it was a solution to poor husbandry. You still have to watch for disease, water testing and feeding. But having an Apex makes life much easier.

[brewmaster15]

Look, I dont know why things are made so much more difficult than they have to be. You don't need expensive cutting edge equipment to keep discus well. I know no one here has said you need high tech...im just re-affirming that you don't.

Tank ..water..heater.. quality food mechanical filter...biofilter. .. healthy fish.

A simple fish tank with air driven sponges and heaters works.

If a hobbyists want to automate, monitor etc go for it.. if it helps you give the fish plenty of good clean water, appropriate food and water temp etc. AWESOME.. Have fun.


Im an old dinosaur.. air driven sponge filters... aquaclear hang on the back filters for my bigger tanks. The only thing high tech about my discus keeping is my eyes.

High tech may be great for one big tank but many of us have alot iof tanks...not practical for high tech .

Theres a saying we have in the hobby.. KISS.

Keep it simple stupid.

If you meet the fishes needs by what ever method you choose you will do well with discus.. if you don't.... start at the basics until you get it right.

[Raul-7]

Look, I dont know why things are made so much more difficult than they have to be. You don't need expensive cutting edge equipment to keep discus well. I know no one here has said you need high tech...im just re-affirming that you don't.

Tank ..water..heater.. quality food mechanical filter...biofilter. .. healthy fish.

A simple fish tank with air driven sponges and heaters works.

If a hobbyists want to automate, monitor etc go for it.. if it helps you give the fish plenty of good clean water, appropriate food and water temp etc. AWESOME.. Have fun.


Im an old dinosaur.. air driven sponge filters... aquaclear hang on the back filters for my bigger tanks. The only thing high tech about my discus keeping is my eyes.

High tech may be great for one big tank but many of us have alot iof tanks...not practical for high tech .

Theres a saying we have in the hobby.. KISS.

Keep it simple stupid.

If you meet the fishes needs by what ever method you choose you will do well with discus.. if you don't.... start at the basics until you get it right.

I completely understand. The beauty of the hobby is that there's room for everyone.

I never forced my methodology upon anyone, but at the same time I should not be called out for wanting to automate. I was merely giving an alternative viewpoint on how equipment can help. :)


KISS is definitely agreeable, in fact when troubleshooting we always start with the basics. But automation helps by not only controlling and minimizing mistakes. But more importantly, it keeps logs of all the changes that occurred within a 24 hour period and sends alarms/notifications when parameters go south [like temperature for example].

[Sandip]

Having automation does not make someone an expert at husbandry. It makes your life easier. Why should I use a python to change the water; when pumps can do the same job in less time? Why not automate?

Plenty of people use an Apex, the company has been around for 25 years. It's just most people in the FW hobby are cheap [nothing against it].



I never kept reefs, BTW.

But my point is that compared to FW - they do not cut corners [or only a minority do]. They go all out on equipment. I like that mindset. I like redundancy and over-filtration.

So I learned to do it right the first time; rather than make mistakes.

I had automated WCs using an Apex. If done via pumps - it much faster and hands free. Now I'm not suggesting everyone go out and buy an Apex. But it does a lot of things right. And can make your life easier.

I never claimed it was a solution to poor husbandry. You still have to watch for disease, water testing and feeding. But having an Apex makes life much easier.

I would say if you can do it... go with it. I am a mix of both worlds myself. As long as these help you in keeping clean water and stable parameters. I use some of these equipments myself partly because I already have them and partly because I like using them. I love continuous monitoring of temp and pH and the fact that I can monitor my tank from a 1000 miles away. I am aware that most of them are an overkill for keeping discus.
I am jealous that you have setup an automated water change system using pumps. I wish I had the necessary plumbing setup to do that. Someday!
Share some pictures of your setup please.

[farebox]

We all live in a high-tech world now and people rely on automation to do things. I'm an old fart and have been keeping freshwater fish for a very long time and doing things I've learned through the years by just doing simple things will keep my fish alive and healthy. Discus are not complicated to keep, just follow some very simple basic rules, and whoa!

[Charlyc11]

One of my PBR customers is usen a Felix KIT for fresh water. Expensive

https://www.felixsmart.com/pages/kits

136548

[brewmaster15]

People really can go overboard with tech.... and sadly it probably doesnt keep their fish any healthier or more long lived than the diligent hobbyist doing regular water changes, feeding good food ,and practicing informed common sense fish keeping. I get it but lets be honest... these over the top tech tanks are the keepers true hobby. Keeping the fish is just an excuse for many of them to pursue tech tanks... in my opinion .

[Charlyc11]

People really can go overboard with tech.... and sadly it probably doesnt keep their fish any healthier or more long lived than the diligent hobbyist doing regular water changes, feeding good food ,and practicing informed common sense fish keeping. I get it but lets be honest... these over the top tech tanks are the keepers true hobby. Keeping the fish is just an excuse for many of them to pursue tech tanks... in my opinion .

He uses that unit for his L046 zebras in a tank with 18. I have 10 in my 125 and they are thriving but do spend a lot of time in their caves..

136549

[Willie]

Raul give it a try! Or sell all the automated stuff and do it correctly....

I'm with Tom on this one. When someone starts a conversation with me about "I've been keeping reef tanks for decades and I love to try discus...", my heart just sinks. Reef tanks and discus tanks are complete opposites. Once you set up a reef tank, success depends on leaving it alone and just looking at it. Discus requires huge feedings followed by huge cleanings. It's like raising hogs; slop them down, hose it out, repeat. Automation doesn't lend itself to the latter. Discus is not an ideal species unless you can commit a lot of time.

There's also a key philosophical point. I spend ALL my money on the fish - getting the best quality stock. Back when Kenny was selling, I only purchase his premium, show quality fish. When I buy from Simply sponsors, I gladly waive the SD discount so they send me the best fish from their tanks. If I'm going to do all this work to raise discus, I will start with the best stock. I put them into old, used, often beat up, tanks with a heater and a sponge filter to produce spectacular beautiful discus tanks.

[brewmaster15]

If I'm going to do all this work to raise discus, I will start with the best stock. I put them into old, used, often beat up, tanks with a heater and a sponge filter to produce spectacular beautiful discus tanks. lmao.. we are two peas in a pod Willie.:)

[Tshethar]

I have come to appreciate that there are different ways to approach the hobby.

I kept reef tanks in the 90s but haven't done salt water for 20 years now. Getting out of that corresponded in part with not having the budget for an expensive hobby that seemed to require an endless array of new gear, but I can also appreciate the fun of figuring some of that stuff out. (It was pretty rudimentary back then.) I admit, though, that the habit of tinkering with equipment could carry over in ways that could cause trouble if poorly applied to the discus hobby. It may well be that there are some things to “unlearn.”

In my case, I found that some of what I imagined might help seemed less useful than I thought. For example, I put in a purigen reactor as insurance to ensure good water quality in between frequent water changes, but then found out the discus didn't like my tap water to begin with. What they really needed was pre-filtration. So, the reactor wasn’t a problem, but it didn’t seem to really matter that much, and I had to spend more money elsewhere. Moreover, the driftwood leeched tannins the purigen then picked up, so the reactor ended up needing service despite not really pulling fish waste out of the water (since I kept up with WCs). Servicing and recharging it was a pain and while it never leaked, I worried that someday it might, so I ended up removing it.

Still, I get the impulse to experiment and sometimes it's fun. I think a certain amount of automation and "tech" can really help and even you guys with just the old BB tanks and sponge filters would probably confess to using something like a temperature controller, right?

In my case, anything that would make it easier to change water is something I would welcome. If I am ever able to have a fish room, I am going to have a way of using stuff like sprinkler timers and solenoids, pumps, stable plumbing, etc., to be able to fill and drain tanks without having to drag a hose to each one. (I will probably be 65 before this can happen, and I like the idea of keeping it sustainable for a long time.)

Additionally, I've run UV before and while it's debatable what it might do (or not do) for fish health, it definitely improves water clarity. For a display tank in the living/dining room, that counts for something. (I'm currently playing with a way to run my python through it when I add new water to the tank so that I might catch anything out of the tap that makes it through my prefilter...)

I have also seen some people using some gear in sumps and such that I like and wouldn't hesitate to do if I was running one and had some extra cash. (One example is the automatic filter rollers—would probably use one if I had a large display tank with a sump.)

If it feels like it helps protect the investment and isn't overly complex, then I say go for it, especially if you already have it, it gives you peace of mind, and/or it’s fun and isn’t likely to cause harm or neglect. Just be prepared to change course if or when you need to, keep an open mind, and see what seems to matter to the fish.

[Raul-7]

I'm with Tom on this one. When someone starts a conversation with me about "I've been keeping reef tanks for decades and I love to try discus...", my heart just sinks. Reef tanks and discus tanks are complete opposites. Once you set up a reef tank, success depends on leaving it alone and just looking at it. Discus requires huge feedings followed by huge cleanings. It's like raising hogs; slop them down, hose it out, repeat. Automation doesn't lend itself to the latter. Discus is not an ideal species unless you can commit a lot of time.

I've repeated this multiple times; I'm not a Reef keeper. I stated that I respect their dedication and avoidance of shortcuts when choosing equipment. Most FW hobbyists try to be as cheap as possible [nothing wrong with that]. I have a long background in breeding Hypancistrus sp. and I understand the importance of proper care.

I understand that most of you are against automation, but why do you correlate automation with lack of proper care? In fact, an Apex can make an experienced fish hobbyist avoid making mistakes and keep monitoring all their parameters. It can avoid fatal errors like overheating, heater gone bad, pumps not working, etc.


Not sure why you have a phobia/hatred of automation when it's saved people countless of hours and potential disasters.

[Willie]

...I understand that most of you are against automation, but why do you correlate automation with lack of proper care? In fact, an Apex can make an experienced fish hobbyist avoid making mistakes and keep monitoring all their parameters. It can avoid fatal errors like overheating, heater gone bad, pumps not working, etc.

Not sure why you have a phobia/hatred of automation when it's saved people countless of hours and potential disasters...

Not a phobia, nor hatred of automation. But in reality, most people go to automation to reduce their workload and invariably paying attention to their fish. Automated water changes are better than none, but do not achieve the water quality improvement with 100% water changes. Heaters will occasionally go bad, but automation is not a replacement for checking your water daily. The most advanced discus hobbyists will tell you that the most important activity is to sit and watch your fish daily. Doing so will save people countless hours and potential disasters more effectively than a set-it and leave-it system.

[Zeus Discus]

I've repeated this multiple times; I'm not a Reef keeper. I stated that I respect their dedication and avoidance of shortcuts when choosing equipment. Most FW hobbyists try to be as cheap as possible [nothing wrong with that]. I have a long background in breeding Hypancistrus sp. and I understand the importance of proper care.

I understand that most of you are against automation, but why do you correlate automation with lack of proper care? In fact, an Apex can make an experienced fish hobbyist avoid making mistakes and keep monitoring all their parameters. It can avoid fatal errors like overheating, heater gone bad, pumps not working, etc.


Not sure why you have a phobia/hatred of automation when it's saved people countless of hours and potential disasters.


Well, I'm not against automation. It can be useful. BUT, why are you so argumentative when you have never even kept discus? Ive read a bunch of these threads now and you act like you know better than guys keeping Discus successfully for ages. Needs be said by someone. maybe you should get discus and then show everyone how well your way would work. I participate in alot of forums and nothing bristles the regulars more than a novice that comes on to tell them how to do something better. Just telling it like it is. I don't mean this in in a bad way...but its getting old.

If using Apex is that big a deal and doing things automated floats your boat.. just do it. Get a tank,get some discus, and show people that it works for you. But don't discount the experience of many discus keepers llike Willie and Brewmaster.

[Iminit]

Lol I’m not cheap :). These automated systems have been around for awhile. Getting more automated and more expensive as they go. So being said where are the automated discus keepers? Facebook is loaded with discus keepers but I never see anyone with an automated system. Why? Raul you may be on to something. The next big thing ;) bio-home, cold water discus and now automated systems for discus :).

[brewmaster15]

Can always count on water change methodology to stir up a debate. I dont care too much on whether its automated or not... if it helps change the water I'm good with it.

I have a fairly automated system. Cat gets me by up 4 am.. I get up..plug in my coffee percolator, grab a mug of Java and walk downstairs. Drain ,drink coffee, check messages...fill ..repeat. Electronics may fail.. Dante never fails to wake me up and start the automation :)

[Iminit]

Like

[fljones3]

Love it, Al.

[Raul-7]

Well, I'm not against automation. It can be useful. BUT, why are you so argumentative when you have never even kept discus? Ive read a bunch of these threads now and you act like you know better than guys keeping Discus successfully for ages. Needs be said by someone. maybe you should get discus and then show everyone how well your way would work. I participate in alot of forums and nothing bristles the regulars more than a novice that comes on to tell them how to do something better. Just telling it like it is. I don't mean this in in a bad way...but its getting old.

If using Apex is that big a deal and doing things automated floats your boat.. just do it. Get a tank,get some discus, and show people that it works for you. But don't discount the experience of many discus keepers llike Willie and Brewmaster.

I never discounted their experience or offended them in any way.

It just bothers me when people want to correlate automation with 'set-and-forget' and 'carelessness'. It is NOT. It makes your life easier, but it does negate daily care. Nobody made that claim that it did. But somehow it keeps getting spinned as Oh, you automate - means you're a careless fishkeeper.

And just because I've not kept Discus, does not mean I'm suddenly going to forget all forms proper fish husbandry or panic when I get them. I've kept sensitive fish before like blackwater Gourami's who are a lot harder to care for than Discus. Discus are not some glass species like Seahorses, etc. or other species that need a live diet, special water parameters, etc. Most of the ones we keep are tank-bred and are much hardier than their wild counterparts. They just need pristine water [low nitrates, low DOCs, etc.], high temperatures, good oxygenation, and good quality food. It's not rocket science.

[brewmaster15]

I never discounted their experience or offended them in any way.

It just bothers me when people want to correlate automation with 'set-and-forget' and 'carelessness'. It is NOT. It makes your life easier, but it does negate daily care. Nobody made that claim that it did. But somehow it keeps getting spinned as Oh, you automate - means you're a careless fishkeeper.

And just because I've not kept Discus, does not mean I'm suddenly going to forget all forms proper fish husbandry or panic when I get them. I've kept sensitive fish before like blackwater Gourami's who are a lot harder to care for than Discus. Discus are not some glass species like Seahorses, etc. or other species that need a live diet, special water parameters, etc. Most of the ones we keep are tank-bred and are much hardier than their wild counterparts. They just need pristine water [low nitrates, low DOCs, etc.], high temperatures, good oxygenation, and good quality food. It's not rocket science.

Raul,
I don't recall anyone accusing you of being a careless fishkeeper . Likewise I dont think you implied not using an automated system makes others a careless fish keeper.

It doesnt matter if you automate or manually do it. . if the fish gets good care thats all that matters.


In defense here I will say you arent the first person that came here with alot of ideas on discus care as a novice. There has been a few really hot threads over these...understand that many of us have done just about everything wrong you can and we try to help people not make those initial mistakes even if that novice would rather we didn't. You can take or leave advice you get here, I hope you take most of it to heart.. but if not thats fine too.


I hope discus are in your future soon and you can test what you think you know about them against what we do know about them from experience. I'd like to see you succeed here.

Al

[Vanman]

The only thing I automate are the room lights. That timer failed yesterday. Water changes are done with valves on drilled tanks after I siphon the bottom. The siphon is started with a drill powered pump. Water is pumped to the tanks from spare aquariums that I age water in. It will get easier after I get a real water aging tank. It will be refilled with a float valve. Easy peasy.

[Raul-7]

Raul,
I don't recall anyone accusing you of being a careless fishkeeper . Likewise I dont think you implied not using an automated system makes others a careless fish keeper.

It doesnt matter if you automate or manually do it. . if the fish gets good care thats all that matters.


In defense here I will say you arent the first person that came here with alot of ideas on discus care as a novice. There has been a few really hot threads over these...understand that many of us have done just about everything wrong you can and we try to help people not make those initial mistakes even if that novice would rather we didn't. You can take or leave advice you get here, I hope you take most of it to heart.. but if not thats fine too.


I hope discus are in your future soon and you can test what you think you know about them against what we do know about them from experience. I'd like to see you succeed here.

Al

Thank you Al.

Exactly; none is better than the other. Everyone is free to choose as long as the fish get the optimum care they deserve. :)


And no, I'm not an expert at Discus. Far from it. But I'm confident in my knowledge and experience. I've bred Hypancistrus sp., Apistogramma sp., etc. I've dealt with all the highs and lows most of us have seen.

Definitely, I will stick around and if I need help - I'll be the first to say I was wrong. :)

[bluelagoon]

Aesthetics comes to mind for me. I've always kept aquariums in the living room. I could not handle looking at the hoses and pipes; looks awful. They might look ok in the basement and out of sight. But not out where folks can see them. Plus I would think that a lot more water be used in automatic WC's to accomplish the same amount changed by hand.

[Iminit]

My problem with auto water changers is they are adding and removing off the top. So aren't you removing the water you just put in? Next if it’s a planted tank with substrate how are you vacuuming the substrate?

[Raul-7]

My problem with auto water changers is they are adding and removing off the top. So aren't you removing the water you just put in? Next if it’s a planted tank with substrate how are you vacuuming the substrate?

Not with a sump.

I had a large 125G sump. The drain pump was near the drain point of the sump [where water enters into the sump]. The fill pump was in my RO reservoir and deposited water at the exit side of the sump [where my return pump was].

My Apex utilized multiple optical sensors and float valves to orchestrate the whole process.

1. Return pump turns off
2. Waits 30 seconds to allow all the water to drain into the sump
3. Drain process starts until the low point optical sensor is reached
4. Waits 10 seconds
5. Fill pump starts until the normal optical sensor is reached. Fill pump turns off.
6. Return pump restarts.

Process took around 10 minutes with Mag pumps. This was done 3 times per week; but could be customized [7 days a week, 2-3 times per day, etc.] as desired.

I even had an emergency button that would do a waterchange on demand.

[Iminit]

Nice!! Smartly done! But how do you clean the substrate?

[Raul-7]

Nice!! Smartly done! But how do you clean the substrate?

I did not. I let the MTS do that for me. :o

[brewmaster15]

It sounds like a very well thought out system. One thing I can suggest should you do this again with Discus. Get adults... don't use this system with small discus growing out.. its unlikely MTS. Will clean the substrate enough to compensate for the multiple feeding to grow out discus. Substrate tanks do not make good grow out tanks.

Al

[Raul-7]

It sounds like a very well thought out system. One thing I can suggest should you do this again with Discus. Get adults... don't use this system with small discus growing out.. its unlikely MTS. Will clean the substrate enough to compensate for the multiple feeding to grow out discus. Substrate tanks do not make good grow out tanks.

Al

Definitely! :) I know young ones need a barebottom, heavy feeding and a heavy waterchange regimen.


I was planning on purchasing Jumbo or Premium Grade from Discus from Golden State. :)

[Raul-7]

BTW, you can clean the substrate in other ways.

For example, you can use a Gyre pump which keeps the debris suspended in the aquarium.

[Iminit]

Lol I’ve got mts in all my planted tanks. They eat most dying mater and left over food. Are great for plants! They eat all dying root. Keep plants from getting root rot. But they eat no waste. Waste builds up in the tank and needs to be removed. I vacuum all planted tank at 1/4 of the tank a week. Dis is in a planted tank it was the whole substrate weekly. You will be shocked how much waste accumulates in a week. Not cleaning out the waste will cause problems with discus.

[Adamski77]

I did not. I let the MTS do that for me. :o

MTS? Could you please do it for me…

[Iminit]

Mylasian trumpet snails mts. Or but not for this thread mts multi tank syndrome: where a person keeps buying more tanks!:)

[NeptuneNomad]

Wow! All these tanks look amazing!