PH curiosity question for discus that the internet does not answer

[Discus Fever]

I looked online about how high of PH can you keep discus in, and to my surprise nothing will tell you that. When I will be getting my discus there will not be any wilds. I have kept discus in all types of PH straight out of the tap with no issues. Since I am getting back into discus after 15 years and haven't purchased my discus yet I was wondering how high can you keep discus in? Where I live right now my ph is 8.9 and was planning on using a brand new RO that I purchased a couple months ago to get my PH down to a better range. Then I started to think am I able to keep discus in my original tap water with no issues? I know stable PH is everything but how high can we get away with? I know that all the other fish I keep in my PH has thrived well for a lot of years that I still have. It is weird but nothing on the internet will answer that question. If I can keep my discus in my PH and only us the RO for breeding reasons that would be the perfect way for me. Does anyone know if I can keep them from my tap water or is the RO a better option?

[Willie]

Water chemistry is very complex and pH is one of many measurements possible. Because pH strips and pH meters are relatively inexpensive, people tend to focus on something easy to understand. But at the end of the day, it's only one measurement. Imagine trying to test food quality based solely on one measure, say saltiness. As an extreme example, pH 8.9 is hard water is very different than pH 8.9 in 100% R/O. (In fact, pH in R/O water is meaningless.) Not trying to frustrate you, but I've raised and bred discus at pH 8.7 - but my tap water is on the soft side (145 ppm TDS).

You can assess whether discus will do well in your tap water by checking out local fish stores with discus. They seldom have good quality specimen, but you can see if the fish are thriving: fins up, facing front, swimming mid-level, lively... Unless you're bringing in wild discus, tank raised fish are typically more adaptable. The key is not the actual water condition but clean water.

Discus will grow up and spawn in hard water, except that the hatch rate can be very low. That said, I did precisely what you suggested. Once I have a mated pair, I would wait until the male start to clean the cone. (Not the female, which cleans often and not always before spawning.) I would then do a 100% water change with pure R/O. The fish usually spawn within 2 hours into a completely clean tank with very soft water. There's no "shock" going into pure R/O. Once the eggs hatch and you reach the wriggler stage (~60 hours at 80F), you can go right back to hard tap water.

Depending on how large the fish you're buying, you've got plenty of time. Get your fish started (change lots of water), then set up an R/O storage system somewhere accessible. I usually use a 29H or 37 cube to spawn, so you don't need that much storage. Good luck!

[brewmaster15]

I think Willie's advice is sound. At the higher pH levels yourun into an increased chance of bacterial issues with discus but you have enough experience to know not to skimp on water changes and to maintain a healthy bioload in the tank. Domestics should be fine in your water under good care.

Al

[Raul-7]

Honestly, it's best to replicate their environment as close as possible for long term health. I learned this the hard way when breeding different species of fish.

Start with a base of RO water - this gives you the cleanest and purest water. Then add minerals via CaCO3. This will add dKH [pH stability] and dGH [water hardness].

[Tshethar]

This question is a little tangential here as I am thinking about wild discus (see my other recent thread) but since we have a pH question I'm wondering how those of you who have tried to dial in a lower pH without RO may have attempted or succeeded in doing that safely, without crashing it.

I am not likely to attempt it as my tap water is generally soft with lower TDS and a stable pH around 6.5 last I checked (new meter coming in the mail this week). That said, I know people will use a bag of peat in their aging barrel, some will add small amounts of muriatic acid to the same, and in looking at meters and controllers and such I saw that Milwaukee makes a pH controller that at least in theory one could connect to a CO2 canister.

I don't think I'm going to try to maintain a 5.5 level for wild greens or Heckels but since I needed to get something to measure my pH, I already use temperature controllers, and I have a full canister of CO2 I started wondering as I was browsing the available gear. I'm guessing that the higher temps and the surface agitation for gas exchange that are both normal might lead one away from the CO2 approach but thought I'd ask anyway.

[brewmaster15]

This question is a little tangential here as I am thinking about wild discus (see my other recent thread) but since we have a pH question I'm wondering how those of you who have tried to dial in a lower pH without RO may have attempted or succeeded in doing that safely, without crashing it.

I am not likely to attempt it as my tap water is generally soft with lower TDS and a stable pH around 6.5 last I checked (new meter coming in the mail this week). That said, I know people will use a bag of peat in their aging barrel, some will add small amounts of muriatic acid to the same, and in looking at meters and controllers and such I saw that Milwaukee makes a pH controller that at least in theory one could connect to a CO2 canister.

I don't think I'm going to try to maintain a 5.5 level for wild greens or Heckels but since I needed to get something to measure my pH, I already use temperature controllers, and I have a full canister of CO2 I started wondering as I was browsing the available gear. I'm guessing that the higher temps and the surface agitation for gas exchange that are both normal might lead one away from the CO2 approach but thought I'd ask anyway.


Bill, depending on your starting waters KH lowering the pH without RO is very very difficult. Titrating the correct amount of an acid to counter the waters buffering is just really a good way to kill fish. I've used muriatic acid in the past but would not recommend it. If you do try it please wear goggles and gloves. I got splashed with it once 35 years ago and still have the scar. I was really lucky with the location of the burn... right between my eyes.

Using peat works to a degree but it needs to be constantly changed out and has limited range of use.

Commercial chemicals are sold that will lower your pH in a tank but often they precipitate out the buffers and cloud the water. They are also expensive.

CO2 will lower the pH but its a tough thing to balance and itdoesnt help you with water changes.. its also unstable as its a gas.

I'm going to break with conventional wisdom here on the wilds..you do not need soft acidic water for them. You need clean water more though. I have bred both wild blues and wild greens now in my well water pH 7.6 after aging. I have kept many wilds in that water including tanks of Heckels.

Having soft acidic water is not a necessity... however I do think you will get the best colors from them in that water and will see more spawning behavior. Its a no brainer that they will be happier at least initially in water thats close to what they came from... but they are more adaptable than often given credit for. Im sure theres been a lot of wild discus killed needlessly because people tried to fuss with their water incorrectly.

RO water is your best bet for making soft acidic water.. its not without its issues though. Foremost is waste. We already use a tremendous amount of water in this hobby... RO is extremely wasteful. For every 1 gal made.. gallons go down the drain. In my case., being on a well and having many tanks.. thats something I can not afford to do..nor do I feel comfortable doing it from a position of sustainability unless I have to. I have RO here but I rarely use it. I get lower hatchrates in my tap but its fine.

[brewmaster15]

Honestly, it's best to replicate their environment as close as possible for long term health. I learned this the hard way when breeding different species of fish.

Start with a base of RO water - this gives you the cleanest and purest water. Then add minerals via CaCO3. This will add dKH [pH stability] and dGH [water hardness].

Raul,
Your comment here definitely does make sense when we are talking about common theories in fish keeping. It does make sense to try and raise fish in water they were collected in. But in practice its not necessary to do so if you stay in the range of what they can live it. The further you move outside that range the more stressed your fish will be... Discus it turns out do have a very broad range of what they can adapt to. Wild Discus probably have a smaller window.. but our domestic discus really can thrive in a huge range of waters. I mentioned in my previous post about my water. pH 7.6 my discus both wilds and domestics do very well. But how about in the long term?

I current have over 30 adult discus that range from 6 years to 8 years old all bred and raised in my tap. Some are wild crosses..some are domestic.

I know people who are successful with far more extremes than I am.

[Discus Fever]

Yeah I pretty much determined that I will be using an RO tap water mixture to get my water right where I want them to be for discus. I did this exact same thing in the early 90's and never had problems with keeping them and breeding them. Back then I believe my water was at PH 6.7 and my conductivity was 80 after the mixture, will probably get it close to that this time around as well.

[Tshethar]

Thanks for your thoughts and experiences on this, Al. Very helpful, and if it helps to know your advice isn't falling on deaf ears.

I have all kinds of stuff laying around somewhere from being in the hobby for so many years but I have generally come around to the "less is more" approach, though when getting excited about a new setup it is easy to want to tinker, break out old equipment, buy something new, or somehow optimize things in one way or another.

In my case I even have half a bottle of muriatic acid in my shed, which I once used (carefully) to try to get rid of etching/hard water stains on an old tank and/or glass tops... can't even remember if it worked but it has been gathering dust for years and I prefer to keep it that way!

I also have an RO unit in the shed that I got when I could tell I had a "water issue" but I figured out that the prefiltration stages were enough and I also hated generated so much waste water.

Finally, while I could imagine an automated setup that used CO2 to keep a pretty stable, lower pH in my water (given I seem to have limited buffering), I would then have to worry about a pH swing when I did water changes, or I would potentially make more work for myself by needing to preparing water that was similar in order to do them.

Given how time and energy can wax and wane, at least for me, that would be a recipe for doing fewer of them. And I think we all know that if the point is to optimize things then creating barriers to doing WCs is a step in the wrong direction!

P.S. I heard Discus God George said lemon juice works great, especially for his yellow discus. :p

Oh, and as much as I love breeding behavior and had fun gaining a little experience with that, I also now see how much work and space is needed for successful growout, so unless I end up with one of those sheds converted to a fish house or something, I'm going to keep rolling with prefiltered tap water and seeing how we do.

[Raul-7]

Raul,
Your comment here definitely does make sense when we are talking about common theories in fish keeping. It does make sense to try and raise fish in water they were collected in. But in practice its not necessary to do so if you stay in the range of what they can live it. The further you move outside that range the more stressed your fish will be... Discus it turns out do have a very broad range of what they can adapt to. Wild Discus probably have a smaller window.. but our domestic discus really can thrive in a huge range of waters. I mentioned in my previous post about my water. pH 7.6 my discus both wilds and domestics do very well. But how about in the long term?

I current have over 30 adult discus that range from 6 years to 8 years old all bred and raised in my tap. Some are wild crosses..some are domestic.

I know people who are successful with far more extremes than I am.

I never doubted your success and I know they can handle a lot of variation in parameters. Given of course that the water is clean, warm, high oxygen, etc.

However, if your pH is 7.6 but what is your TDS and dGH?

The point I was try to also highlight is that we should respect their original biotope to some degree [don't mean feeding live or blackwater, etc.], but rather try to keep it soft, slightly acidic or neutral.

I personally would FEEL very guilty keeping Discus in my tap with a TDS of 400ppm.

[brewmaster15]

Raul,
When you get your first discus you can keep them anyway you want but I am offering you practical experience based on ...many years keeping them and breeding them. It really doesnt matter to me whats done with that advice.

My tds..

136480
Medium hard water & kh 1 last time I measured.

I should add here also that your views are not unique . Quite to the contrary.. we have seen many people think the way you do of discus. And although you may be comfortable playing with pH and RO water.. many are not and in the attempt to mimic wild discus water they often end up stressing or killing their fish when it was not necessary.

Al

[Adamski77]

Al… quick question on this device from your picture… does it check more than one water parameter? I saw some “sensors” connected to the iPhone in the hatchery where I bought my discus… just my poor Chinese didn’t let me ask enough questions to figure it out. Is there any electronics that would provide you your water parameter real-time?

[brewmaster15]

Hi Adam,

Amazon here in the USA..

136486

These are inexpensive hand held ones.. fairly accurate if calibrated regularly. They do make expensive ones that monitor continuously and can connect to blue tooth or computers.. thats far from my needs though.


The set here monitors pH and Tds/uS
Al

[Raul-7]

Raul,
When you get your first discus you can keep them anyway you want but I am offering you practical experience based on ...many years keeping them and breeding them. It really doesnt matter to me whats done with that advice.

My tds..

Medium hard water & kh 1 last time I measured.

I should add here also that your views are not unique . Quite to the contrary.. we have seen many people think the way you do of discus. And although you may be comfortable playing with pH and RO water.. many are not and in the attempt to mimic wild discus water they often end up stressing or killing their fish when it was not necessary.

Al

But TDS in aquarium can be much different from tap as it measures all inorganic and organic molecules. :)

I 100% agree regarding playing with water chemistry; it takes experience and knowledge. I do not recommend it for the newbie. They should focus on keeping ideal water quality [via WCs] and temperature.

[brewmaster15]

But TDS in aquarium can be much different from tap as it measures all inorganic and organic molecules. Raul sorry..:) but the values I posted are for my water storage barrels and empty tanks. The tds in these are the same as my tap. Except for one tank in my house all my tanks are bare bottom..no substrate or driftwood and get daily to every other day water changes. . I've lived here a long time .. I know my water real well by now.

Im glad you recognize this...
I 100% agree regarding playing with water chemistry; it takes experience and knowledge. I do not recommend it for the newbie. They should focus on keeping ideal water quality [via WCs] and temperature. It is a cornerstone in good discus husbandry. Thank you.

Al

[Raul-7]

Raul sorry..:) but the values I posted are for my water storage barrels and empty tanks. The tds in these are the same as my tap. Except for one tank in my house all my tanks are bare bottom..no substrate or driftwood and get daily to every other day water changes. . I've lived here a long time .. I know my water real well by now.

Im glad you recognize this.... It is a cornerstone in good duscus husbandry. Thank you.

Al

How high is your dGH? Because with a dKH of 1, I'd except the TDS to be much lower unless the dGH was really high.

[brewmaster15]

Raul,
Im on a well here in trap rock country.. Its been. Ages since I measured any of that . It is not important to me here on a day to day basis. I will try and dig them up..


In your previous posts on need for soft low tds water for these fish.. I have a question. When you get discus and put them in that water will you breed them? and if so.. how will you raise the fry? Same water?

[Raul-7]

Raul,
Im on a well here in trap rock country.. Its been. Ages since I measured any of that . It is not important to me here on a day to day basis. I will try and dig them up..


In your previous posts on need for soft low tds water for these fish.. I have a question. When you get discus and put them in that water will you breed them? and if so.. how will you raise the fry? Same water?

No necessarily for breeding, but I firmly believe breeding is an indication of health and vitality. But if I were to breed it would be in the same water.

[brewmaster15]

No necessarily for breeding, but I firmly believe breeding is an indication of health and vitality. But if I were to breed it would be in the same water.

Should that happen, we should probably talk then about the unique challenges raising Discus fry in soft water pose.:)

Are you planning on getting Discus soon Raul? I hope that you will start a journal thread here when you do.

al

[Raul-7]

Should that happen, we should probably talk then about the unique challenges raising Discus fry in soft water pose.:)

Are you planning on getting Discus soon Raul? I hope that you will start a journal thread here when you do.

al

But isn't the hatchrate higher in soft water compared to hard?

I hope so - eyeing either Altum Carnation or Giant Floral - or maybe Deep Reflection. Too many good choices. :D

[brewmaster15]

The hatchrate is better usually in soft water.. but the problems are the growth and development of a batch of discus fry raised in a tank of soft water is challenging to balance. It goes hand in hand with these types of tank usually also are substrate tanks or planted in some way. It all comes together to make it very hard to raise discus fry in that water.. most people that keep their discus pairs in that soft low TDS water to breed... switch the fry to tap water or harder water to grow,

al

[brewmaster15]

I posted this in another thread on pH.. but I thought I would post here as well.
Water used at the former Stendker Discus hatchery

136491

Al

[Raul-7]

I posted this in another thread on pH.. but I thought I would post here as well.
Water used at the former Stendker Discus hatchery

Al

That is golden information - thank you for that.

I wish there was rep function on this forum. :)

[Vanman]

Please tell us about " the unique challenges raising Discus fry in soft water pose".

I raised a lot of Discus thirty years ago in very soft acidic water because that is what I had. About 20 ppm TDS, not sure about the PH because I rarely if ever checked it. The well I have now is a few hundred feet from the one I had 30 years ago. It is about 40 ppm TDS. I will check the PH next week when I get home.

I have a calcite tank now that I run my water through before it goes into the water heater, long story. I have tapped in between the calcite tank and the water heater to get water for my tanks, at least for now. When I get a large ageing tank I am going to use straight well water, no calcite filter. I hope to raise a lot more Discus when the ones I have now mature.

[brewmaster15]

Please tell us about " the unique challenges raising Discus fry in soft water pose".

I raised a lot of Discus thirty years ago in very soft acidic water because that is what I had. About 20 ppm TDS, not sure about the PH because I rarely if ever checked it. The well I have now is a few hundred feet from the one I had 30 years ago. It is about 40 ppm TDS. I will check the PH next week when I get home.

I have a calcite tank now that I run my water through before it goes into the water heater, long story. I have tapped in between the calcite tank and the water heater to get water for my tanks, at least for now. When I get a large ageing tank I am going to use straight well water, no calcite filter. I hope to raise a lot more Discus when the ones I have now mature.

Gary I dont know anyone with water as low in TDS as you had/have. Its not common. Its hard for me to really comment having not seen the fry you were raising and how fast or well they developed in your water. 30 Yrs ago was a much different time than today...we know more now than then. Im looking forward to when your fish are old enough to breed for you and hopefully you will document their growth in a tank journal.

What I was referring to by " unique challenges" has to do wth growth and development.. in soft acidic water its hard to get good growth and development in tank raised fish. Multiple high protein feedings require a balance of minerals. Its hard to maintain that in super soft water. In wild fry that develop in their natural habitat the growth rate and diet is much different.

Many people have found that fry grow better and faster in hard water. In soft acidic water defects can happen when things are not balanced.. short gill plates, dorsal spine defects, floppy fins, poor growth and poor shape.


I was also refering to how many people that try to keep their discus in soft acidic water have tanks set up as biotopes. Raising fry in a biotope is a very hard thing to do. They are not the kind of tanks that people usually do daily huge water changes in. Fry will not develop well in tanks like that ..its too hard to give the care they need in terms of food and clean water.

Its also not easy to maintain pH in soft acid water. if there is low kH in the tank the pHdoes drop fast.. buffer drops, and pH crashes. Hobbyists making RO water may not watch for those crashing pH levels.. raising fry in that tank makes it even harder. Frequent water changes or the addition of some kind of buffer are a necessity to keep a stable pH in a tank with soft acidic water that has a high bioload. With your low TDS water that may not be an issue but if someone is making RO and has alot of tanks its a nightmare.



At some point Gary I would recommend rechecking all your water parameters. I know from personal experience that well water can change over time. My water here has since the farm across the street started pumping ground water and irrigating.