They are giving it a try

[Charlyc11]

My Leopard and Eruption are finally after a week in solitary. They have been spawning regularly in my display but the TDS is not ideal so i moved them on their own. RO slightly added KH to a TDS of 70.
I am not going to get my hopes up.

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[LizStreithorst]

Good luck, Chuck.

[Charlyc11]

Thanks Liz. Do you think I should shoot some MB with a syringe at the eggs? or they should be oK with daily water change?


Good luck, Chuck.

[LizStreithorst]

No MB needed.

[brewmaster15]

Fingers crossed Chuck. Those should make some nice babies!

al

[Second Hand Pat]

Nice Chuck and crossing body parts for you. Is this a first for you?
Pat

[Charlyc11]

For discus yes and no, I been breeding Pitch Black Rams for a wile and ABN's. When I got the 4 discus (eruption pair, panda and a leopard) the two eruptions spawned in the QT tank and only a couple of free swimmer survived for a few days until they eat them. So they went in the large display and they changed pairs the eruption started spawning with the leopard and the Panda with the other eruption. The two pairs have been continuously spawning but my display has a TDS 240 plus and none survive anyway. Finely after vacation last month I decided to give this pair a try on their own with RO with some buffer to stabilize the KH and a TDS of 70 or less. This is their first try on their own so not getting my hopes up but as long as the are spawning we will keep on trying.



Nice Chuck and crossing body parts for you. Is this a first for you?
Pat

[AquaticNerd]

Looks like they were both making the right moves! Fingers-crossed for a good spawn and I'm looking forward to seeing the results!

[Discus Fever]

With beautiful fish like those I would be definitely getting my hopes up for sure!!! Good luck and keep us posted.

[Charlyc11]

The eggs still look fairly clear after about 20 hrs.

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[Discus Fever]

Looks like a great fertilized batch of eggs

[LizStreithorst]

That's what it looks like to me, too. What a pretty bath of eggs.

[Charlyc11]

Not so fast they are all turning white

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[LizStreithorst]

Rats. Time for a second try. How about pulling the cone next time and putting the eggs in a pitcher of RO? That's what I have to do with my water.

[Charlyc11]

Thats mostly all RO with some alkaline buffer 50 TDS.


Rats. Time for a second try. How about pulling the cone next time and putting the eggs in a pitcher of RO? That's what I have to do with my water.

[LizStreithorst]

Try it without the buffer and see what happens. If you do it in a pitcher with just eggs on the cone, I don't know if the TDS of the water will matter. All you might loose is the spawn which is what you have lost this time.

[Charlyc11]

I can do this with pure RO I made this specially if this happened. I will replace the cone or use the same on like this.
My pitcher concept.

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[brewmaster15]

Hopefully you will see a few wigglers. The male could just be too young. Patience is your friend with discus

[CliffsDiscus]

I can do this with pure RO I made this specially if this happened. I will replace the cone or use the same on like this.
My pitcher concept.

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Looks good but where's the heater.

[Charlyc11]

It goes in the tank with the pair so they can see them until they hatch.

[LizStreithorst]

Chuck, you are so good at doing stuff! You can't imagine how long it took me to find a 1 gallon pitcher with an open handle.

[Charlyc11]

My other pair spawned on Monday so I took the cone and put it in the container since I wasn't sure they were male/female but I guess they are. So I moved them to their own tank for now.

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[brewmaster15]

Looks extremely good Chuck. Those dark spots on the eggs are the eyes. :)

[Charlyc11]

We will see what happens they are watching the eggs.


Looks extremely good Chuck. Those dark spots on the eggs are the eyes. :)

[LizStreithorst]

Good looking batch of eggs. They look just about to start wiggling.

[Charlyc11]

Yes total surprise for me. The other pair I think they eat the eggs I can't tell from the surveillance camera I will see when I get home later.

[CliffsDiscus]

Looks good, you might want to lower the air. I was looking at the other pair and it showed some bent spinal that can be from too much air and deformities.

[Charlyc11]

I will do that when I get home.


Looks good, you might want to lower the air. I was looking at the other pair and it showed some bent spinal that can be from too much air and deformities.

[LizStreithorst]

Cliff knows more than anyone about breeding and raising fry. He saved my breeding program.

[CliffsDiscus]

Cliff knows more than anyone about breeding and raising fry. He saved my breeding program.

Liz, I only gave a few suggestions, you did all the work of breeding and raising.

Cliff

[Charlyc11]

It was a bit late they all wiggled away and are all over the container. I had the air total opposite side so maybe they will be OK.

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[Charlyc11]

This morning I removed the cone since they none on it. I might have to set up the 29 gallon if it all goes well just need to find a place to put it. The 20 gallon was a spare of the moment setup I wasn't expecting these two to be spawning.

This morning surveillance check.

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[brewmaster15]

Chuck,
There may be something going on here you need to work out. The fry should not all be dropping off the cone. Usually the majority stay on the cone and wiggle until free swimming. They have adhesive glands on their foreheads that hold them in place. When its time to free swim the glands are absorbed and the fry swim looking for parents.

Thats two batches in a row that all the fry dropped off. Something isn't as it should be. If this batch doesnt manage to go free swimming we should take a closer look at your water. Theres also the possibility theres a bacteria at work..some of those fry look swollen.

[Charlyc11]

Both happened with the same cone and I don't really have that much experience with discus breeding so all comments are welcome. Maybe the air was to high like Cliff mentioned. If they don't survive I will use a different cone and not use the the container. The water is RO with some Seachem Alkaline buffer to increase the KH a little.

[Red Eye.]

Looking good.

[LizStreithorst]

I was thinking too much air bubbling, too.

[For100]

Both happened with the same cone and I don't really have that much experience with discus breeding so all comments are welcome. Maybe the air was to high like Cliff mentioned. If they don't survive I will use a different cone and not use the the container. The water is RO with some Seachem Alkaline buffer to increase the KH a little.

What a shame!! I was looking forward to see them attach. Third time is the charm. ��

[Charlyc11]

There is a lot of movement going on for what I can see in the surveillance camera so maybe theirs some hope.

[LizStreithorst]

fingers crossed.

[brewmaster15]

fingers crossed.
And toes! Would love to see them swim to the parents side for you Chuck.

Al

[Charlyc11]

This is as of today a little activity.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RebIYzxEuQM

[brewmaster15]

Chuck I think thats too much air for that tank. they are going to burn through their yoke sacs. I would turn the air down alot.

[LizStreithorst]

I agree

[Charlyc11]

Al I reduced the air as you suggested.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gWjeexthwM

[LizStreithorst]

I don't know if the ones on the bottom are going to get up and swim correctly. I'd put them with their parents now.

[Charlyc11]

So you think I should go with it now? I don't want to jump the gun again. I have to do my daily water change first just waiting for the water to warm up.


I don't know if the ones on the bottom are going to get up and swim correctly. I'd put them with their parents now.

[LizStreithorst]

I'd do your WC and dump 'em in. The ones that are swimming are swimming well. I don't think the others will make it. I wish Cliff were here right now, but he's not.

[Charlyc11]

I did the WC and set the level to the height of the parents and removed the sponges. I dump in and the eate them, I don't se any around.



I'd do your WC and dump 'em in. The ones that are swimming are swimming well. I don't think the others will make it. I wish Cliff were here right now, but he's not.

[CliffsDiscus]

Chuck, the fry should in forming into clusters of 3 to a dozen fry attached at their heads, but since most of the eggs dropped
their might not be any clusters. Any free
on Monday can be added to the parents, any sooner the pair will cull out the dead and deform fry.
Might try using the PVC, the cone might be leaching out bacteria, and also buy some R/O or distilled water since we don't know exactly what the problem is.

[LizStreithorst]

Oh rats.

[LizStreithorst]

Oh rats

[Charlyc11]

Morning shot.

I like when a crappy picture looks good.

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[Charlyc11]

They are still trying .

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[Charlyc11]

The Pand and Leopard did it again but not on the cone. I have a few thing happening wile I wait for the eruption pair and I am officially on vacation till Jan 3rd.

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These I don't know if they will survive they are from the last last spawn that was falling of the cone. I have freshly hatched brine shrimp and I might mix in some vinegar eels since I have a large culture reproducing for months.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSsnxTvsl4Q

[CliffsDiscus]

Chuck, does that look like black dots in the middle of each egg, my phone is too small for viewing.

Cliff

[Charlyc11]

Cliff to early to tell I will take a better close up but these they spawned last night in the display. I can't believe they laid their eggs on that dirty pleco cave.

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[Charlyc11]

I guess they are eating belly looks full some more than others.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAJi5JyRTSo

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Chuck, if you are feeding brine shrimp you will see pink in the bellies of the fry. To me I think I see some pink.
Pat

[Charlyc11]

Ok they went free swimming and the Eruption pair is fostering the spawn.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL7oY8sfpgg

[Charlyc11]

The fosters still doing well the fry is feeding off the foster parents.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqOZNyWcfkI

[Charlyc11]

The panda Leopard pair spawned and today I have more wigglers. The question is artificial or fostering the fry.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrYAvIcvrKY

The Eruptions are still fostering their other spawn so maybe I need to set up another tank with the panda Leopard pair and see if they will take the fry. I have a few days to think about what's best. I really did not want to move the pair from the community tank they are pretty happy there.

[AquaticNerd]

Whichever way you take, that looks like quite the large and healthy spawn, so congrats!

[Charlyc11]

The fosters are doing well.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rtF4Hrx96U

[Charlyc11]

They are getting bigger and now I can see some darker than others.

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[Iminit]

Looking good! I never managed the artificial way. It’s tough. I’d leave the cage and leave with the parents. Good luck! Think you may want to look for more tanks :).

[Charlyc11]

I have plenty of tanks.

[Charlyc11]

The Eruption pair was successful in caring for the their fosters but the will all get culled since they all have deformities. No more kids from the Pand/Leopard let's hope I can get some fry from the Eruptions themselves.

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[brewmaster15]

Chuck I have seen alot of fry and honestly never saw something like that affecting the whole batch. Its really not normal that defects like these would be a genetic thing from two unrelated fish. Something else maybe going on.

Were these raised in tap water?

[CliffsDiscus]

The Eruption pair was successful in caring for the their fosters but the will all get culled since they all have deformities. No more kids from the Pand/Leopard let's hope I can get some fry from the Eruptions themselves.

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Chuck, did you check your water parameters, that may be reason for the deformities?

Cliff

[brewmaster15]

Chuck, did you check your water parameters, that may be reason for the deformities?

Cliff
Thats what I was thinking too Cliff.

[Charlyc11]

They were hatched on straight RODI, they eventually made it to the foster parents that had a TDS of 140 PH 7.3 -7.5 water changes every day with the same water parameters. Now in a 10 G with 140 TDS PH 7.3- 7.5. My other tanks I usually keep at 230 TDS PH 7.3 - 7.5.
I have well water at TDS 230 after aging PH 7.3 - 7.6 but I add 8 grams of Seachem Alkaline buffer since I have no KH in my well water. I add the same if I am making RO for the Breeder tank plus I add 10 mils of Seachem Replenish. My well water comes in from the well at 200 TDS PH 5.5 - 6. KH 0 GH 6
I am changing to a mix of 50/50 RO/well for a TDS 0140 and I want to see if I get wigglers from the Eruption pairs same water parameters I have the fry since I moved them on Friday.

[brewmaster15]

Chuck what about Baby Brine shrimp ?do you use them and hatch 2times a day?

al

[Charlyc11]

They been getting brine shrimp every day. I hatch every other day keep in brine in refrigerator so they are dormid, then they wake once in warm water while rinsing you can see them swimming in the tank . I been doing this for all my Rams also never had a problem. They been with the foster parents for 3 1/2 weeks and they been eatings BB and off the slime.

[brewmaster15]

They been getting brine shrimp every day. I hatch every other day keep in brine in refrigerator so they are dormid, then they wake once in warm water while rinsing you can see them swimming in the tank . I been doing this for all my Rams also never had a problem. They been with the foster parents for 3 1/2 weeks and they been eatings BB and off the slime.

Chuck, If this issue continues on other fry I suggest you try hatching Brine shrimp twice a day. Thats what most discus breeders do. I'm not questioning the Rams were fine with the Brine shrimp but I honestly don't know how "dormant" the brine shrimp go metabolically in the fridge. They still need to consume nutrition from their yolk sacs and usually thats in the first 8-10 hours of hatching at room temp. Lasting 2 days on it in the fridge may be using up a key nutrient. Discus and Rams may just have different nutritional needs at a key points in development. Your fosters may not have been making slime at all and all the nutrition was from the Brine.

al

[Charlyc11]

I don't really have the time to do 2 hatching a day I am still working full time. I will try again with the Eruction pair and if it doesn't work out I will be buying my discus not breeding them.

[jeep]

I've had this happen in an old Stendker Santarem pair but not to this degree. My water is very hard, about double yours, and I added some calcium chloride to the water and it was somewhat corrected but not entirely.

My spawns are in 80TDS and I immediately start adding straight tap after they hatch. By the time they're free swimming they're in straight tap water.

I have to agree that your issue is environmental. Wish I had more to offer...

[brewmaster15]

HI Chuck,
I did some research on the Baby brine shrimp storage and found some interesting facts. In an FAO article they state that fresh hatched Ist instar nauplii can be stored at refrigerator temps with aeration for at least 24 hours and there will only be a loss of 5% energy and minimal mortality. Unfortunately the article doesn't say what effect longer periods of cold storage will have.


4.3.2. Cold storage

Molting of the Artemia nauplii to the second instar stage may be avoided and their energy metabolism greatly reduced (Fig. 4.3.4.) by storage of the freshly-hatched nauplii at a temperature below 10°C in densities of up to 8 million per liter. Only a slight aeration is needed in order to prevent the nauplii from accumulating at the bottom of the tank where they would suffocate. In this way nauplii can be stored for periods up to more than 24 h without significant mortalities and a reduction of energy of less than 5%. Applying 24-h cold storage using styrofoam insulated tanks and blue ice packs or ice packed in closed plastic bags for cooling, commercial hatcheries are able to economize their Artemia cyst hatching efforts (i.e., reduction of the number of hatchings and harvests daily, fewer tanks, bigger volumes). F https://www.fao.org/3/w3732e/w3732e0o.htm


The article did also imply though that at hatching temps the rate of energy use and molting to second stage is very quick occurring in Hours. The first stage is the nutritious one as the baby brine live off their eggs yolks and do not eat .

At the high temperatures applied for cyst incubation, the freshly-hatched Artemia nauplii develop into the second larval stage within a matter of hours. It is important to feed first-instar nauplii to the predator rather than starved second-instar meta-nauplii which have already consumed 25 to 30% of their energy reserves within 24 h after hatching (Fig. 4.3.4.).


The main point here is that most hatching instructions say they hatch in 18-36 hours depending on temp.. With a window that big you may miss the actually hatching point, I typically find mine hatch at 20 -24 hours. even so that 4 hour difference is big in terms of nutritional loss. so a few hous makes a big difference.


This is a heavy read..
https://www.fao.org/3/T0700E/T0700E00.htm#TOC

but it gives good information on deficiencies that cause deformities.


hth,
al

[Discus Fever]

I always feed my live brine shrimp at 24 hours just because of that nutritional value at the beginning of the hatch.

[Charlyc11]

Mine hatch about 24 Hrs or a bit less. The fry wasn't only eating BB's the would pick on parents food and fry dry food that I mixed in the auto feeder. I think the fry food was to old. We will never know unless I get the same results from the Eruption pair. I got rid of the fry food I had used so we will see what happens.

[CliffsDiscus]

Anyone try adding Selcon to their BBS?

Cliff

[brewmaster15]

Anyone try adding Selcon to their BBS?

Cliff
I haven't Cliff but if anyone does they would need to wait until the bbs has its first molt... after the yolk sac is used up. The first stage that we normally feed to the fry don't eat at all so the selcon would not be eaten by them.