Discus in quarantine losing appetite

[Johanna]

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

One of the 4 new discus is going downhill in qt. He was the dominant one although easily scared at first, last to start eating and had a gill problem following a Camacell treatment, but that seems to have improved (I'd say back to normal). He started eating Artemia and tried some other foods last week, but has again lost interest in food a couple of days ago.

This thread is related to the other topic https://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?140519-Quarantine-questions I'm just going to copy the relevant part from the latest post here:

Something's not right with the 'problem fish' but I can't see what the problem is. Yesterday and today he doesn't seem to show much interest even in artemia. He looks somehow tired and avoids the feeding frenzy but occasionally picks at some food still. Mostly spends his time under the driftwood, no more attacking the others as they swim by - just a tiny shuffle towards them at most. All the other fish are doing very well and this one doesn't show any signs of a particular disease. The breathing is normal. Just a general decline in appetite and activity level just when I thought he was starting to look good. He's still a bit dark in colour, too. Any ideas?



2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

Nothing external, except a bit darker / more bluish colour than the other Eruption ( I suppose they should be the same). Hiding behind a driftwood, which he claimed as his territory from the beginning.


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

Two rounds of Camacell according to the quarantine plan: day 7 and day 16. During the first round the fish showed signs of gill flukes (breathing one-sided and more laboured). After the second round, the symptoms disappeared. The fish started eating better after a few days until stopped again.

Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.

125 l, 4 discus about 10-12 cm

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).

25% daily + siphoning the waste, except during treatments, when I changed every other day and replaced the lost amount of medication.


6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

It has been running empty of fish since I medicated my first batch of discus in it in October. Cleaned tank, filter etc and added Prodibio Start Up Biodigest & Stop Ammo to restart the cycle for the new fish. Tank is bare bottom, one piece of driftwood.


7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

No need to age it, just add dechlorinator. pH swing of only about 0,1-0,2


8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?

Prodac Aquasana, recommended dose (which is approximate and likely a little more than needed because it is impossible to measure exactly right for a small volume)


9. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp ____29_

- ph ___7,1-7,2__

- ammonia reading ____0

- nitrite reading ____0

- nitrate reading ____<12,5 (that's the lowest the test will show, could be anything up from zero.)

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water __x__

- RO water ____


10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

nothing except the 4 new discus


11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.

Copied from the other topic: My seafood mixes are salmon-based (Akvarie Teknik Discus Life series). That's the main food I give my discus, plus Tetra discus granules and Sera granules and Tetra crisps and flakes. Artemia and Mysis as a treat but not all of the discus eat Mysis. The FD Tubifex is by this brand, called Discus Hobby which is marketed as pathogen free...



12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

Nothing new. there are a couple of videos in the previous thread. They are from the same day, one showing them eating Artemia, the second is seafood mix, which kind of shows the problem and the behaviour. I will try to get a new clip later today/tomorrow.

[brewmaster15]

Johanna,
Your problem fish here maybe suffering still from the aftermath of your deworming it. When a fish has worms the worms can burrow into tissue and organs. These worms then die when you treat them with a dewormer that can lead to localized infections and just not really doing well heath wise. There can be a period of time when the fish is just really off their game while they heal. I can't say 100% that this is whats happening but its one scenario that fits the time line and what you are seeing. You do want to watch for swollen abdomens and odd colored feces as that could mean theres a more than minor infection.If you can separate the fish to a bare hospital tank if will be easier to monitor it.. if not a partition in the QT tank may help.

al

[Johanna]

Update on this situation. I've been really sick for the past week and couldn't get out of bed much so the fish have had to make do with lacking maintenance... but I kept up with water changes in the qt tank and the new Artemia batch arrived so now I can feed lots of it. I didn't have another tank or even a suitable partition readily available but I took out the driftwood to make it easier to observe the fish and also to rob the problem fish of his hiding place. That seems to have helped (or time has helped) because now he is eating Artemia again, ate a liiittle bit of the frozen salmon and the aggression is definitely back. But now, seeing his movement and behaviour better I'm a bit concerned about his swimming position!? He seems to hold himself at an upright angle, tail down and near the bottom a lot. I'd assumed earlier that it was because he was hiding halfway under the driftwood that it forced the position, but he does it even in open water. Why is he doing that?

Two new videos, one is of the feeding and another where the strange swimming position can be seen.

https://youtu.be/cWXfAAT5eHc

https://youtu.be/_pFHCeZWMpo

[brewmaster15]

Hi Johanna,
Part of your tanks issue is you have a pair forming. Theres definitely prebreeding activity going on in that tank.
Al

[Johanna]

Thanks Al, really appreciate your help! That's interesting, can you tell which of the fish are pairing up? Should I put the driftwood back in to help with the aggression?

Another problem has appeared. Is this just an injury/bacterial growth or HITH?? I saw a little uneven bump on the skin without any white stuff in that same exact spot maybe 2 weeks ago and assumed an injury, as it disappeared on its own in a couple of days. And now it's back with this white spot that looks like a big bacterial node.

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[brewmaster15]

HI Johanna,
At this point I wouldnt do anything about the pairing up.. if you want to give them the driftwood put it off the the side.. the pair will take over that side the other two will be pudhed to the opposite side. Can't at this point say which two are going to be the pair. The amount of sparring you are seeing though is perfectly normal for cichlids. ..especially when you have 4 and a pair forming.


The white bump is an infected pore.. basically its a pimple. In most cases it ruptures on its own and leaves a small hole that closes up and heals without issue. Its commonly thought to be linked to water quality but sometimes they just happen .

Theres are cases where these bacterial pockets can be very bad but at this point the one on your fish doesnt look to be.

[Johanna]

Good to know it probably isn't something serious. I'm hoping it won't get worse because we can't get fish antibiotics *anywhere* anymore. Is there anything I can do to help it heal besides trying to keep the water as clean as possible - salt, maybe?

[brewmaster15]

The risk with something like this is the pimple becomes an abscess. Without access to antibiotics That would be very bad. :(

Something like this can happen..
https://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?139444-Aeromonas-(disturbing-Photos)-very-long-read.

Though thankfully its not common.



One thing.I can suggest is a salt dip.

https://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/medicine_cabinet/salt.shtml

It turns over slime coat and theres a really good chance that it will open that blocked pore.

Al

[Johanna]

3% salt dip? And for how long? This procedure scares me honestly :eek: One thing that comes to mind is I might be able to scavenge some Baktopur Direct somewhere as I know people stocked up before it was discontinued. I'll have to look into it tomorrow. If someone agrees to sell me some... would it be better to treat with that right away or wait and see how it develops?

[brewmaster15]

I dont like using or recommending an antibiotic when its not yet needed .

Salt dips are scary when you first do one but read up on them.. they really are a good option and can be safely done.

[Johanna]

This morning the pimple was just gone. No hole in its place, just a little skin irritation / some unevenness maybe missing a couple of scales... it's hard to describe or even see for sure but it looks like a tiny little scuff mark.

[Johanna]

So it has become an emergency now. Problem Fish doesn't look good. This morning the weird swimming has increased to the point that he's dragging his tail and body looks curved at times. Occasional tail standing. Found him stuck to the filter intake. He's got a mark on his face that is not a hole, but a discolouration - lighter area with dark edges.

What should I do??

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSFFNrhV59w

[brewmaster15]

Johanna,
I think that fish has something going on internally. The loss of balance, darkening of fins, stress bars and listless look.. it could be a bacterial issue.. that patch that just appeared on the head is not something I have seen happen... But I suspect that its indicating an infection .
Sometimes discus will have discolored areas when theres a neurological issue from darting into something.
Sometimes fish that have been hormone treated at some point (common with spotteds and reds) undergo organ failure from the hormones down the road. its not something thats treatable.

I wish at could advise something here but at this point its up to the fish. The best you can do is keep the water clean and fingers crossed that it snaps out.

[Johanna]

Thanks, one thing I forgot to add. Got two tablets of Baktopur Direct from a friend. It's nowhere near enough for a full treatment but could be used as a high-concentration bath. Do you think it could be useful at this point?

[brewmaster15]

Honestly.. no. If you use antibiotics for too short of a time period you can create resistent bacteria. In your case its even more so because you really don't even know the cause of the ailment..

The antibiotic,nifurpirinol, is not fast acting.

[Johanna]

Ok, thank you! I appreciate the facts even when it's not what I want to hear. But I see there's no point in treating blindly just to try something. This really is the weirdest problem, the fish is now hiding, almost completely black, swimming in a tilted position but still defending his hiding spot as I feed them and he even ate a couple of artemia shrimps. His breathing is again heavy and one-sided. As it's been uphill-downhill until now, still hoping for a change for the better. I have now prepared the 40L hospital tank just in case, if it's better to separate that fish. The others seem to be perfectly ok for now.

Just goes to prove how important quarantine is... so glad right now I decided to do it instead of having to deal with this issue in the main tank.

[Johanna]

I moved the fish into the small hospital tank last night and he looks a bit better now. Swimming position is more upright and breathing looks more normal. Did not eat but otherwise I think has improved a little.

[Johanna]

Update on the sick fish... not getting better or worse. He's mostly sitting on the bottom of the tank and when he moves around it looks more like bouncing than swimming. He's lost buoyancy and looks almost like his tail is paralyzed. But breathing looks fairly normal and the discoloured area on his face looks like it's fading and getting smaller. He hasn't eaten since I put him into the hospital tank.

And since there's nothing to lose and he's separated from the others... I'm still trying the antibiotics. I managed to get more of Baktopur direct and now have enough for a 2 week treatment in the small tank. I also added a little salt 3g/25l and that seemed to make the fish perk up a little. But I'm worried about the apparent paralysis and if it is even possible to cure something like that. How long is it ethical to try, if the fish can't swim properly would be better to just euthanize it?

[brewmaster15]

Johanna thats really a personal call. For me.a few days at most is what I would do. I'm not trying to be callous here but I honestly dont think this fish will make it. I would really like to be wrong but my experiences tell me otherwise.

Im really and truly sorry.

[Johanna]

Yeah, looks that way to me too, I'm not expecting miracles. I saw him pooping twice today, which I haven't seen in several days, and the faeces looked more or less normal. Brown, with a little bit of slime. I think he must have eaten something in the hospital tank then, otherwise seems like a very long time (5 days) since I've seen him eat. I think I'm going to give it a couple more days and see what happens.

Now, as I'm prepared to euthanize, I would like to look even that sad outcome as an opportunity to learn something. I'm thinking of dissecting the fish. I've done it before on native wild fish while studying but it's been ages. I have the equipment and a microscope. But I don't really have a clue what I'd be looking for to determine the possible cause of the disease. Are there any good resources for that?

[Johanna]

Another update. I hesitate to even say this because I don't want to get my hopes up, but for the past couple of days, the fish has looked better. Still not eating (I think) but being more alert and active, moving around the tank even when he's not scared and swimming short distances rather than just bouncing off the bottom. He seems to have regained some use of his tail. But there is still the lack of buoyancy issue and the tail seems to be slightly curved to the left. The discoloured area from his face has completely disappeared and the overall colour looks a bit better, although stress bars are still constantly visible. I had thought I would put him down today and had bought the clove oil for it, but I just can't do it now when there seems to be some improvement. For now, I think he's gained another few days to see how things develop.

[brewmaster15]

I hope he continues to improve for you Johanna!

Al

[Johanna]

Surprise this morning, instead of sinking like a rock, the fish can swim :balloon: I think the swimbladder is functioning. His balance is still a bit off. But this is a big step forward.

two videos for comparing the progress.

January 31st

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzmJy6VEdus

Today, February 2nd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIPVfwsCI_o

[Johanna]

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Swimming has stabilised some from yesterday. Still not quite 100% but at first glance looks normal. This morning I also noticed some poop again (it's even in the picture). Weird somewhat transparent and reddish colour, even though I have only tried to feed frozen artemia, and haven't seen him eat. Could it be from gut infection? Or is it possible he might have eaten something after all?

Anyway the next challenge would be to get him to eat again. And if he improves further, what am I going to do? I can't really put him back with the others, can I? But the hospital tank is really small for keeping him a longer time.

// I caught the poop and put it under a microscope. It looks very clean (nothing alive in it) and something like possibly undigested artemia :confused:
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[brewmaster15]

Johanna when you are scoping the feces look for this..

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Capillaria eggs ..

Also check out these links..
https://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/internal/nematodes.shtml

https://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/medicine_cabinet/freshwater_parasites_intro.shtml

[Johanna]

138711 This is from another sample, another piece of feces I found under the filter so might have been longer in the water. Found one egg, not sure if it is capillaria or something else. There were also a few other live (moving) microorganisms but only one or two of each type so probably not something to worry about.

Do you still think it might be worms after the 2 Camacell treatments in quarantine? (I removed this fish before the others had a third round).

[jwcarlson]

Johanna, I had a fairly similar issue last year that might be worth reviewing. Both the thread and the microscope pictures I took.
https://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?139240-One-of-my-fish-stopped-eating/page3

[Johanna]

Sorry, I've been gone in the puppy land for the past few days - got 8 little ones and the mom wasn't producing enough milk so keeping them alive took all my time. Thankfully now it's looking much better and they are growing on their own. So time to get back to the problem fish..

The situation has been quite stable for the past few days, still slightly improved from my last post. The fish seems to be doing quite ok otherwise but still refuses to eat. There's still the Baktopur direct treatment going on (for the third week) and I'm planning to continue until the full 3 weeks and then stop. I haven't added anymore salt. I raised the temperature to 31C in hopes of getting him to eat. He did pick at some artemia once or twice but I don't think he ate any. Sometimes it looks like he gets a "coughing fit" when I put food in the tank. Sometimes he's spooked by feeding and backs away.


Johanna, I had a fairly similar issue last year that might be worth reviewing. Both the thread and the microscope pictures I took.
https://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?139240-One-of-my-fish-stopped-eating/page3

Very interesting, thank you! I read all of it. Still, I'm not quite sure what to think re. my fish. Should I do another Camacell treatment? He still breathes one-sided especially when stressed and just in case there is capillaria... Camacell should take care of both flukes and worms?? But I'm also worried that Camacell might be too strong after the long antibiotic treatment and might actually harm the fish! After all, the problem fish initially started having problems following the first Camacell treatment.

// Forgot to add that I've been dosing vitamins (Sera Fishtamin) into the water every night for about a week and accidentally overdosed yesterday... tried to shake loose a clingy droplet and managed to squirt a lot of it into the tank instead... hope that isn't harmful and I'm going to skip at least the next couple of doses.

[Johanna]

Just another update to keep track of the problem fish. I see he's gained a nickname ;) think the fish is still improving, with small changes in colour, movement and behaviour, and today I saw him repeatedly pick at a piece of tubifex. Not sure how much (if any) he actually ate, but he clearly showed interest in the food for the first time. I will try tubifex again tomorrow. It will be the last day of antibiotic treatment and then a few days in clean water... then I can probably move the other fish into the main tank and the problem fish can go back into the bigger qt tank. Once he's properly settled there I'm planning to do another Camacell treatment because I still think he's got flukes (and possibly worms if that egg was capillaria). I'm starting to feel a little optimistic about his chances of survival at this point. At least it hasn't been a totally wasted effort to try to save him.

[brewmaster15]

Johanna,
Are you learning anything doing all of this? Looks like it to me. ..in which case there is nothing wrong with trying...its not wasted effort .

If it gets to the point where you want to try one last ditch effort... there is gavaging .. basically using a syringe with a bent metal tube... used to dose small animals like mice.. its not without risk but it can turn a fish around.. you can force feed food.

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[Johanna]

Definitely learning a lot, I have never before gone to all this trouble treating a sick fish. ONce again I have to say this forum is just GOLDEN, you can find answers here to almost any question. It's just sad that the use of antibiotics will no longer be an option for me after this one time, if I ever needed to do a similar treatment again. From what I've seen so far I think I should have isolated and started treating the fish earlier and not let him get in such bad shape.

I will have to google gavaging, never heard of that procedure before. I wonder if a feeding tube for small puppies could be used instead :idea: as I have quite a lot of experience using those with newborns. It would be a huge stress for the fish though, so I think it really must be left as the last ditch effort. I hope the interest in food today was a good sign.

[brewmaster15]

https://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?53318-Force-feeding-a-starving-discus&highlight=Gavage

https://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?48939-How-long-can-a-discus-go-without-eating

[Johanna]

Of course, the relevant information is here, no need for google :D

I started the new Camacell treatment for the sick fish yesterday and today he ate a little! He immediately came up as I put some artemia/seafood mix in there and carefully picked some artemia shrimps and I saw him actually eating them. No adverse effects from the medication so far.

The feces are still a weird orange-red colour. Any possible explanation for this?

[jwcarlson]

Could be orange/red due to the brine shrimp.

[Johanna]

Could be orange/red due to the brine shrimp.

Could be. Other discus in the qt tank have normal coloured feces even when they eat brine shrimp, which I think is strange if the weird colour just because of that but the others eat much more and also dry foods.

Tomorrow I will move the other discus to the main tank. I'm excited! But also a bit scared and hoping it all goes well. If so, then I will move the problem fish back to qt from the hospital tank on friday/saturday (continuing Camacell until then). He's looking quite good! I have seen him eat twice today. Only small amounts, but he comes up to the feeding every time, takes a few bites and doesn't spit them back out. Otherwise, he looks and acts quite normal now. He's still very thin in the stomach area... probably can't even eat much yet. I'll post a video on the progress when I have the time.

[brewmaster15]

Good luck Johanna!

[Johanna]

So the new fish from qt have been moved to the main tank, all is well so far! Here are a couple of videos of the problem fish. One is a closeup of the general appearance. Looks quite normal to me now, but I'd like the opinion of someone more experienced... do you see anything of concern? And the second one is the strange coughing fit when I feed him. Any ideas why he's doing that? The breathing seems to be back to normal otherwise. He's eating just a little bit every day, but it's often interrupted or delayed by 'coughing'.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16BOh5f4NbU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ske5THCDKC8

[brewmaster15]

He definitely looks a lot better. I hope he continues to recover for you! Still pinched in the belly but if he is eating that should fill out. Fingers crossed.

[Johanna]

Today he ate quite a lot, perhaps more than I have ever seen him eat since I got him! I introduced frozen bloodworms and he really liked them. I've tried to avoid feeding them but I think at this point whatever goes as long as he eats!

Thank you so much, Al, for all the support and advice!

[Johanna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPAX8IgP8Kw

Moved the fish back to the 125 l quarantine tank a couple of days ago. It went well, he settled in almost immediately, started eating and doing normal discus things. For now, I'm keeping the light off because he's still quite skittish when eating. He now eats bloodworms, artemia and also Prodac FD beef heart which was a new discovery for me and all my discus love it! Looks like he's going to be ok :fish: I think, instead of being labelled the problem fish, I should start calling this one The Miracle Fish because I was 99,8% sure he was a goner when I first put him into the hospital tank.

[Johanna]

Unfortunately I have to return here and let you know that things took a turn for the worse with this fish. He lived his best life for a week or so in the bigger tank, eating really well and looking healthy. Then I started noticing the tail drooping again, and quite fast - over a couple of days - he just lost the normal swimming functions again. Listing to the left side, tail dragging etc. Despite all that, he kept eating with a good appetite so at a friend's advice, I decided to try one last idea and treat with eSHa hexamita. I started the treatment yesterday, but the fish is not improving, just looks darker and more sick than before so I have decided to let it go. Very disappointing, discus are such great personalities and this one proved to be a fighter.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Johanna, a very hard decision but most likely best for the fish. You tried really hard and so sorry it didn't work out in the end. :(
Pat

[brewmaster15]

Unfortunately I have to return here and let you know that things took a turn for the worse with this fish. He lived his best life for a week or so in the bigger tank, eating really well and looking healthy. Then I started noticing the tail drooping again, and quite fast - over a couple of days - he just lost the normal swimming functions again. Listing to the left side, tail dragging etc. Despite all that, he kept eating with a good appetite so at a friend's advice, I decided to try one last idea and treat with eSHa hexamita. I started the treatment yesterday, but the fish is not improving, just looks darker and more sick than before so I have decided to let it go. Very disappointing, discus are such great personalities and this one proved to be a fighter.

Johanna, I was really hoping for a better outcome for you. :( You truly did your best for him.

[Johanna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMSOQ8539nE

Ok now I'm panicking just a little. Look at the white pigeon blood. Suddenly having swimming difficulties and tilting to the side. A bit similar to the problem fish that died but not sinking, rather the opposite. Doesn't look bloated. But he is very greedy and often eats so much that his stomach bulges. I just saw him poop and it looked normal.

Also one of the angel boys is very bloated since yesterday evening and not eating. I think he ate almost the whole tubifex cube and maybe it's causing a blockage. I'm trying epsom salt bath in a bucket for a couple of hours for now to see if it helps.

I wonder if it's something about the food with the discus as well. Either tubifex or the freeze dried beefheart that I'm suspecting, have left them out of the menu for now.

What to do with the discus???

[brewmaster15]

I would do nothing yet Johanna. It looks like theres some breeding action going on in the tank. In that video the very peppered pigeon has the look and behavior of spawning.. it and the white pigeon maybe an item or others .. give it a few days and just watch.

[Johanna]

Interesting, I didn't think of that! The dark pigeon was already paired up with the other lighter coloured spotted pigeon (I don't know what they would be called, being some kind of crosses). There has been some minor fighting and chasing after the new fish were added to the group but surprisingly little, I thought it could have been worse. The white one was back to swimming normally the last I saw them tonight but the weird swimming wasn't constant before. The angel however was looking worse after I put him back into the tank and didn't poop at all in the epsom salt bath.

[brewmaster15]

It can take time for laxatives to work. Hopefully thats the case here.

[Johanna]

Thankfully the white pigeon seems to be back to normal. I suppose the tilted swimming was some kind of social behaviour, it looks like both existing pairs are preparing to spawn. Unfortunately the angel doesn't look good. I got the hospital tank ready for him today but it might be too late. He's in there now with epsom salt again. His belly is so swollen that his breeding tube is coming out more than it should be. He's getting tired, didn't put up any fight when I netted him. Any ideas, is there something else I could still try?

[Johanna]

I found the angel dead in the hospital tank this morning. Well, I guess it's best if I try to rehome the other angel before he kills himself by overeating too. They are much more aggressive eaters than the discus so it's probably just a matter of time...

[gimaal]

Sorry to hear about the angel. FD tubifex does have a nasty reputation for causing constipation/bloat/dropsy. Are you soaking the cube before feeding? If not, the purported solution is to reconstitute it--soak it-- before feeding. I don't use the stuff but I did read a few labels for different commercial brands and they now do suggest soaking before feeding. (They didn't always.)

[Johanna]

I haven't soaked them but I usually cut the cubes in half and stick them on the glass. Pressing them against the glass seems to squeeze the air out of the worms... but I guess not all of it. Thanks for the advice, I'll switch to soaking them like I do with granules and frozen food.