Black Ram fry.. thanks Brian!

[brewmaster15]

Awhile back Brian (Jeep) sent me a bunch of Rams.. Blacks and Golds. Most are in a group still but I set up 2 pairs of Blacks and though I got eggs ans some fry..nothing great and the pairs ate them. One of the tanks is on my desk... I have been so busy with Discus I honestly gave up trying to breed these ..figured I will just leave them be. The tanks not really set up for fry... guess they didnt get the memo.


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The other pair also didnt get the memo and is sitting on eggs in their tank.


Thanks Again Brian!

[LizStreithorst]

That's a pretty decent group. I'll tell you a little secret that I stumbled upon not long ago...If you cross a gold with a black that has been bred black to black for several generations, you'll get a noticeably higher percentage of blacks.

[brewmaster15]

That's a pretty decent group. I'll tell you a little secret that I stumbled upon not long ago...If you cross a gold with a black that has been bred black to black for several generations, you'll get a noticeably higher percentage of blacks.

Thanks Liz I will have to try that one since Brian sent me a good number of Golds too.

[jeep]

I had given up on mine as well but they didn't get the memo either, and when Rams spawn they're serious about it. I had two spawns of Rams and two spawns of discus happening at the same time and all the sudden every ounce of tank space was filled. I've seen several spawns form the offspring recently but they're in community tanks so no success. I'd like to have more of them because they're in pretty high demand in my area, but I don't have the tank space.

I'm glad they're working our for you!!

[brewmaster15]

Ok so question here for Liz,Brian, and Chuck...or any one else that knows this...

Brian sent me gold rams too. If you breed black to black you get black rams and gold rams. IF I breed gold to gold from those do they throw just gold or. Does gold x gold here throw blacks as well?

[LizStreithorst]

I never tried it because the most obvious answer is that they would all be gold.

[Charlyc11]

I did not breed gold x gold either but I think Tom did and got all gold. Correct me if I am wrong Tom. I only bread the Blacks and got 50 % Black max.

[brewmaster15]

I never tried it because the most obvious answer is that they would all be gold.

Lol..so black x black the obvious answer is half black and half gold.. but. Gold xgold the obvious answer is all gold? Hmm.

Obviously :) :evilgrin:

[brewmaster15]

I did not breed gold x gold either but I think Tom did and got all gold. Correct me if I am wrong Tom. I only bread the Blacks and got 50 % Black max.

Thats the ratio I saw too.


Now then what about gold x black.? What ratio of black to gold?

[LizStreithorst]

I've made that cross of colors several times. I always saw larger percentages of Blacks by crossing colors than when breeding Black to black.

[brewmaster15]

I've made that cross of colors several times. I always saw larger percentages of Blacks by crossing colors than when breeding Black to black.

Thats interesting Liz.. Im not sure what it means genetics wise but thank you.

[Charlyc11]

I've made that cross of colors several times. I always saw larger percentages of Blacks by crossing colors than when breeding Black to black.

Thats interesting Liz.. Im not sure what it means genetics wise but thank you.

I new Liz had the answer but I did not want to put words into her mouth.

[gimaal]

From what you describe in these two color forms of rams it sounds like gold (xanthic/yellow) is recessive to black, as it is in most fish species.

[brewmaster15]

From what you describe in these two color forms of rams it sounds like gold (xanthic/yellow) is recessive to black, as it is in most fish species.
But if that was the case.... Black x gold would give all black as a phenotype...

[gimaal]

But if that was the case.... Black x gold would give all black as a phenotype...

Not necessarily. If the black is heterozygous and carries the recessive gold gene, black x gold would produce as much as 50% gold depending on the pedigree of the black. Only if the black was homozygous for black and not carrying the recessive gold gene would it produce only black fry. Conversely, gold x gold can only produce gold because the dominant allele, black, is absent.

[brewmaster15]

Not necessarily. If the black is heterozygous and carries the recessive gold gene, black x gold would produce as much as 50% gold depending on the pedigree of the black. Only if the black was homozygous for black and not carrying the recessive gold gene would it produce only black fry. Conversely, gold x gold can only produce gold because the dominant allele, black, is absent.

HMMM.. BUT if that is the case.. Black x Black is going to give some that are homozygous for Black. or if bred to gold would give all black hetro for black

We have no examples of this unfortunately

[brewmaster15]

Unless... 2 doses of the Dominant Black is fatal.. then it works with what we know.

[brewmaster15]

Theres also a tidbit of info that says breeding black to gold gives you better quality blacks.. hard to understand why that would be if Gold is recessive to black

Makes me think multiple genes are involved.

I also wonder on the chronology of the traits.. Gold has been around a very long time.. Black Im pretty sure is relatively new...

[Charlyc11]

But if that was the case.... Black x gold would give all black as a phenotype...

The one that knows best is Coralbadit and he is on Fishlore.com you can ask him. I got most of my guidance Liz and Coralbandit.

[gimaal]

HMMM.. BUT if that is the case.. Black x Black is going to give some that are homozygous for Black..

If thats the case those when bred to each other would give all black fry homozygous for black... or if bred to gold would give all black hetro for black


We have no examples of this unfortunately

Not sure which 'those' you are referring to. Here's the math:

BB = Homo black
By = Hetero black
yy = Gold

BB x BB = 100% BB black
BB x By = 50% BB black, 50% By black
By x By = 25% BB black, 50% By black, 25% gold
BB x yy = 100% By black
By x yy = 50% By black, 50% gold
yy x yy = 100% gold

[Charlyc11]

Theres also a tidbit of info that says breeding black to gold gives you better quality blacks.. hard to understand why that would be if Gold is recessive to black

Makes me think multiple genes are involved.

I also wonder on the chronology of the traits.. Gold has been around a very long time.. Black Im pretty sure is relatively new...

From the posts I read from Coralbadit he was working on the black rams since 2017 and he got his stock directly from the creator of the black ram Shahar Danzinger in Israel. I have texted with Shahar when I started and he told me he had Rams that only spawned just black but he did not sell those. Golden goose!!

[brewmaster15]

Has anyone else that any of you know bred black to black and gotten all black?

Liz, brian, chuck, me .. none of us. Id think at least one of us would if Black was dominant. I have 4 pairs black x black right now.. none throw all black.

[gimaal]

From the posts I read from Coralbadit he was working on the black rams since 2017 and he got his stock directly from the creator of the black ram Shahar Danzinger in Israel. I have texted with Shahar when I started and he told me he had Rams that only spawned just black but he did not sell those. Golden goose!!

Well, that's perfectly consistent with the above math. He had BB fish that would only produce black pheno- and genotypes when bred to other BB rams and only produce black phenotypes when bred to By or yy rams.

[jeep]

True that black to black throws a large percentage of golds. Jack Taylor is breeding some gold to gold that I gave to him and we believe they are throwing all golds but it's too early to tell. Black x Gold... I will try that as I have plenty to experiment with. I've noticed that some of my 2nd generation blacks are producing some blue and gold in the bodies of young adults, which may tell me it's weakening the strain. I like the development or simplicity of the genetics and since they have a fairly early gestation cycle and I'm interested in acquiring some wild Bolivian's to cross back to blacks, then back to blacks to see what happens...

[Charlyc11]

I think Liz had all black once.

[gimaal]

Has anyone else that any of you know bred black to black and gotten all black?

Liz, brian, chuck, me .. none of us. Id think at least one of us would if Black was dominant. I have 4 pairs black x black right now.. none throw all black.

If the above is true, and nobody among you has bred black to black and gotten all black--it is unlikely, odds-wise, that none of you ever chanced upon a BB to breed--so then we'd be talking black being incompletely dominant (to gold) as a likely scenario. But since gold x gold from black parents does not produce black (confirmed elsewhere on the net) gold is recessive to black.

The only rams I've ever bred were wild. I assume wild coloration is dominant to both black and gold.

[brewmaster15]

The only rams I've ever bred were wild. I assume wild coloration is dominant to both black and gold. why? Its definitely not like that with wild discus...so I am not sure it would be with other cichlids.

I have seen photos of german blue rams (wild type) crossed with black rams... the result is a mixing of the two forms.


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[gimaal]

why? Its definitely not like that with wild discus...so I am not sure it would be with other cichlids.

I have seen photos of german blue rams (wild type) crossed with black rams... the result is a mixing of the two forms.



I'm asssuming that if this is a one-locus affair, that the normal allele would be dominant to the mutated black and xanthic alleles at that locus. BUT if this is a multi-loci affair, well, that's an entirely different discussion. I did find this elsewhere, a response from a ram breeder to a question about breeding wild-colored ram x black ram:

"The pair shouldn’t breed any black rams, unless the normal looking parent has black ram genes"

Which might explain the rams you've seen.

[brewmaster15]

Currently I have wild rams, black rams,gold rams and dutch blue rams here. I guess I need to do a bit more work :) but its been an interesting discussion! Thank you all.

[dspeers]

Will be curious but it seems plausable that the B allele chromasome has developed a companion recessive lethal gene. Partially explains why By x By is 1:1 gold to black. Even with a recessive lethal on the B chromasome that would yield 1/3 yy gold and 2/3 By black (not the 50:50 most report) unless even one B allele is somewhat deleterious. As to whether or not B is recessive, has anyone thrown a black from 2 gold parents? Has anyone gotten all gold from a black x gold cross?

Has anyone noticed whether black x black broods are in general smaller #s?

[Charlyc11]

If the above is true, and nobody among you has bred black to black and gotten all black--it is unlikely, odds-wise, that none of you ever chanced upon a BB to breed--so then we'd be talking black being incompletely dominant (to gold) as a likely scenario. But since gold x gold from black parents does not produce black (confirmed elsewhere on the net) gold is recessive to black.

The only rams I've ever bred were wild. I assume wild coloration is dominant to both black and gold.

This is were Liz said she had all black.

https://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?140026-Pitch-Black-Ram-Pairs&p=1375616&viewfull=1#post1375616

[LizStreithorst]

I had 2 cases of different pairs producing all black offspring.

[brewmaster15]

This thread at Fish Lore is interesting...

https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/black-ram-genetics.429350/

i have to wonder if the reason Liz got some that threw all black is because of these two different strains..


Black Rams and Black Knight Rams ,The thread implies they are different and will throw different. I assume the Black rams were first and the The Black Knights came after. I have no clue what I got lol..

[gimaal]

Will be curious but it seems plausable that the B allele chromasome has developed a companion recessive lethal gene. Partially explains why By x By is 1:1 gold to black. Even with a recessive lethal on the B chromasome that would yield 1/3 yy gold and 2/3 By black (not the 50:50 most report) unless even one B allele is somewhat deleterious. As to whether or not B is recessive, has anyone thrown a black from 2 gold parents? Has anyone gotten all gold from a black x gold cross?

Has anyone noticed whether black x black broods are in general smaller #s?

To be clear, I created the 'B' and 'y' designations just for illustrative purposes for this discussion. I have no idea how a geneticist would identify the alleles in question. Also, if 'wild' (geneticists usually identify that as 'N' for normal) is indeed dominant to black, as is suggested elsewhere on the net, than the 'B' should be 'b'. I put in in caps to indicate that in its relationship to gold, it is presumably dominant, since there are no anecdotal reports of two golds producing a black even when the golds are offspring from blacks. Geneticists call this the 'hierarchy of recessives' when multiple recessive alleles can be present at one locus, there must be a hierarchy of which one is dominant over the others.

[brewmaster15]

This thread also.
https://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/threads/dark-knight-ramirezi.28666/page-3

In the fishlore thread Coralbandt mentions Marco as the one that took the black Ram to the next level..the Dark Knight... This is a quote from Marco..


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[brewmaster15]

as an add on.. this is exactly why forums are so great,:)

[LizStreithorst]

Both of mine were exceptionally large spawns and I saw no die-offs. In both cases, the parents of the pairs that produced the all black fry were the offspring from the same black/ gold pair. They were among the first spawns I got from CoralBandit. I was so new to rams at the time, that I had no idea that I'd achieved something rare.

[brewmaster15]

Well I know at least one of my pairs of blacks throws 50% blacks to 50% golds. They are spread out pretty good in this pic for counting. :)

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