A question from a reformed PP user

[LizStreithorst]

I'm cleaning up my number 1 breeding pair and want to treat for flukes with Rid Ich Plus. Can anyone tell me if I can treat with this concurrently with treating with Metro? Also, the label talks mostly about Ich. How many days of treatment are necessary with Rid Ich Plus?

[Vanman]

This will be interesting. My Rid Ich Plus arrives Tuesday.

[For100]

Hi Liz,

Rid Ich Plus is formalin + malachite green. Formalin is the active agent against gill and skin flukes, NOT eggs. You have to repeat the treatment day 7 and 14 days later to be effective. I have successfully used in the past as follow:

- first round of treatment (day1/2): dose as label (if I remember is 1ml per 10G), 50% water change the day after.
- second round of treatment (day 7/8)
- third round (day 14/15)

Just my experience, I did not check under microscope to see if there were completely gone or not.

[brewmaster15]

Liz formalin is an oxidizer.. its very reactive. I wouldn't use it with other medications.

Does the pair have a problem that needs metro ? If so I would treat that first...then tackle the flukes.

Understand though that formalin isn't really a great fluke treatment. It knocks them off the fish so can give immediate relief but it doesnt kill eggs.. it can take a prolonged treatment to really work well.

Al
.

[LizStreithorst]

OK, I won't treat concurrently. It sounds to me like PP is a better choice. It does kill the eggs, doesn't it? And it's just a 4 hr treatment! How about Absolute Wormer? It's said to get flukes and worms.

I'm treating the pair because I had to cull their last spawn due to some parasite. The fry didn't flash, and saw no white poop, so I don't know what parasite they had. That's why I'm shotgunning the parents before their next sapwn.

[brewmaster15]

PP does not kill eggs.

[brewmaster15]

I'm treating the pair because I had to cull their last spawn due to some parasite. The fry didn't flash, and saw no white poop, so I don't know what parasite they had. That's why I'm shotgunning the parents before their next sapwn. Liz what were the symptoms ?

al

[bluelagoon]

Seachem ParaGuard will work.

[LizStreithorst]

Turning dark and listless. They quit eating and died. the kids were around 5 weeks old.

[brewmaster15]

Liz that sounds like a bacterial issue.

[brewmaster15]

Seachem ParaGuard will work.

according to seachem... https://www.seachem.com/paraguard.php



Dactylogyrus trematodes (skin) / Monogenenean trematodes (gills)

Fish appear sluggish, flash against rocks, and often gasp and show other signs of stress. Flukes are difficult to diagnose because the parasite itself cannot be seen until the advanced stages of infection. Look for gasping, irritated or red gills, excessive mucus production, twitching and flashing, and translucent spots (advanced infections)
Suggested Treatment Period:

14 days or until infection clears
Special Considerations

Dip treatments with ParaGuard™ are helpful in treating and preventing flukes, but keep in mind that this parasite spends part of its life cycle living in your water and substrate - the entire tank needs to be treated in order to clear the infection.



14 days is a fairly long treatment and they never say it eradicates Flukes.



as for mixing paraguard with Metro, seachem pushes the envelop on that..

https://seachem.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360015446594


Green: Seachem® does not recommend using these medications together if it can be avoided as the use of multiple medications can be very stressful to fish, but there are known situations where it is necessary. It is best to keep one medication in the food and the other in the water if possibl

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[LizStreithorst]

Given my excellent maintence, I think a bacterial problem is highly unlikely.

[bluelagoon]

Seachem ParaGuard will work.

Looks like this will not work for internal worms.

[brewmaster15]

Given my excellent maintence, I think a bacterial problem is highly unlikely.

Do you feed live BBS?

[LizStreithorst]

Yes, and the occasional white worms treat. I see where you're going, Al. But I treated with Metro and they started to improve, then (not knoing any better) added Ric Ich plus on day 4. By day 8 most were looking good, a few looked like nothing had ever happened and just a few were still dark.

But the next day, I came to my senses and realized that these fry had been compromised and would never reach their potential, so I killed them all.

[brewmaster15]

Yes, and the occasional white worms treat. I see where you're going, Al. But I treated with Metro and they started to improve, then (not knoing any better) added Ric Ich plus on day 4. By day 8 most were looking good, a few looked like nothing had ever happened and just a few were still dark.

But the next day, I came to my senses and realized that these fry had been compromised and would never reach their potential, so I killed them all.

Liz, we use metro routinely in discus treatments for protozoan parasites but thats not all it treats. It also treats anaerobic bacteria. The type that occur when theres a gut infection . Additionally RidX , the new social media wonder medication everyone is touting is nothing more than formalin and Malachite green. aka quick cure./FMG Its been around ages, These do work on parasites, but really isn't a great fluke treatment. It shines when being used to treat external Protozoans. These are poisons and the formalin is an oxidizer. What this means is they also will kill bacteria in the water column and on the fish ( not for treating external infections)

None of what you posted sounds like parasites.. all of what you posted to me sounds like Bacteria. Not doubting your husbandry.

jmo
al

[LizStreithorst]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I have one question left. What do you think is the best treatment for flukes?

[brewmaster15]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I have one question left. What do you think is the best treatment for flukes?

Liz, no skin off my back.

as for the best treatment for flukes... too many factors to answer that. sorry.

[For100]

Liz, we use metro routinely in discus treatments for protozoan parasites but thats not all it treats. It also treats anaerobic bacteria. The type that occur when theres a gut infection . Additionally RidX , the new social media wonder medication everyone is touting is nothing more than formalin and Malachite green. aka quick cure./FMG Its been around ages, These do work on parasites, but really isn't a great fluke treatment. It shines when being used to treat external Protozoans. These are poisons and the formalin is an oxidizer. What this means is they also will kill bacteria in the water column and on the fish ( not for treating external infections)

None of what you posted sounds like parasites.. all of what you posted to me sounds like Bacteria. Not doubting your husbandry.

jmo
al

Long time without somebody calling out “quick cure”. Rid ich X same product different branding as Al mentioned.


@Al,

It was my understanding about formalin treatment for fluke that it would dehydrate the worm (not sure how) to the point it would detached from the fish and later die.

The treatment for 14 days interval was because of the life cycle of flukes. It would address the issue of no affecting fluke eggs, waiting for those eggs to “hatch” to eliminate them as worms.

Just my personal experience, it worked for me when dealing with the 5wk syndrome.
BTW, I was taught this by Jack Wattley (not Gabe) himself back in the early 1990s. (Ahhhh I am getting old, 1990’s ages ago). ��

[brewmaster15]

Long time without somebody calling out “quick cure”. Rid ich X same product different branding as Al mentioned.


@Al,

It was my understanding about formalin treatment for fluke that it would dehydrate the worm (not sure how) to the point it would detached from the fish and later die.

The treatment for 14 days interval was because of the life cycle of flukes. It would address the issue of no affecting fluke eggs, waiting for those eggs to “hatch” to eliminate them as worms.

Just my personal experience, it worked for me when dealing with the 5wk syndrome.
BTW, I was taught this by Jack Wattley (not Gabe) himself back in the early 1990s. (Ahhhh I am getting old, 1990’s ages ago). ��

Hi Freddy,

Assuming flukes are the issue...

Dieter Untergasser, pg 293..Discus Health... Paraphrasing this

"Fluke eggs hatch in hours.. if don't find a host the larvae die in 10 Hrs." ( I have read where it can be a few days to a week to hatch" )
"Flukes reach sexual maturity in 4-8 days.

Not knocking what you are doing, but biologically if you are treating at a 7 day interval, theres a really good likelihood you are missing the window.. Add to it that the formalin is not 100 % effective and is neutralized by organics in the water. Alot of info also says it "knocks Flukes off" Thats not the same as killing them. They can live off their host about 10 hours (Untergasser)

another note , formalin and formalin products consume dissolved oxygen in a tank and are more toxic at higher temps..it doesn't get much higher than discus temps., just an FYI.

[For100]

Good to know more about this.