The new Mini-Discus.. aka Balloon Rams

[brewmaster15]

I know they aren't new but I have seen more and more Balloon Rams being sold. Basically all color forms of rams are now availible as balloon rams. These rams if you aren't familar with them are bred to have a taller body height and shorter length. Its gives them a very round appearance and is vaguely reminescent of a runted discus.:)


Images google search "Balloon Ram"

139414

139415

I have read that they are sickly, weak and susceptible to health issues ... I dont particularly like the strain but I doubt the health claims just based on the sheer numbers that are out there now. All of the ones I have seen in petshops have been very healthy looking. I suspect its similar to how we feel about mishapen stunted discus that they are labeled as weak and disease susceptible.


I have zero interest in owning one as I prefer the more natural form of rams. I am also not knocking anyone that does like them. Your tank.. do with it as you see fit.

I just thought as I was looking at pictures of them that with more breeding and refinement they very well could be the next "Discus" yet one suited for small tanks. That would be a very attractive selling point for some.

Yes I know its not something discus keepers may recognize as a viable thing.. but if you are space limited.. who knows.


Thoughts ?

[Vanman]

They look like culls to me. JMHO

[fljones3]

I agree with both assessments from above. Culls, unattractive.

[Iminit]

I’ve had them. They are very short lived. 4-6 months. Look great than dead. Many threads on them being sick on fishlore. All the same story. Look great now dead. Never read of a long lived version. But like glo fish they sell.

[brewmaster15]

I’ve had them. They are very short lived. 4-6 months. Look great than dead. Many threads on them being sick on fishlore. All the same story. Look great now dead. Never read of a long lived version. But like glo fish they sell.


Devils advocate here. If the normal life expectancy of a Ram is. 2 years and whats being sold in Petshops are fullgrown adults which I suspect are slow growers is 6 months life expectancy really unexpected? Im pretty sure most imported Rams with normal bodies have similar expectancy when bought as full grown. Of note also is that probably 99.99% of balloon rams are imported and 99.99 %of those that buy them do not quarantine.

[brewmaster15]

Frank and Gary, They look culls? CULL discus ? :) seriously though.. Your opinions are welcome. I knew full well these would not be everyones cup of tea. I don't think they are culls.. more like highly modified with a goal in mind and targeting a certain nich. Business wise..brilliant same as glo fish.
.
.. I don't like either btw visually.

I should note, again playing the devil here...that there are many cichlid keepers that disparage our domestic discus as well. Seems they think they are ugly hybrids that diverge from the beauty of wilds. .. which is of course Non-sense to most of us here.:)

[bluelagoon]

I'm not a fan, being that it is a genetic deformity that curves the spine and compacts the organs. I've read that it could be painful, but not so sure about that.

[Second Hand Pat]

Al, not a fan personally but then I'm not a fan of the goldfish which can barely swim due to the round size of the body. I wonder of the spine is shorten to get the round appearance? Like done with the bulldog discus?
Pat

[brewmaster15]

Pat funny you mentioned the bulldog. Those to me are just not my cup of tea either. . I remember a few threads when they first came out that got rather heated..

[brewmaster15]

I'm not a fan, being that it is a genetic deformity that curves the spine and compacts the organs. I've read that it could be painful, but not so sure about that.
I have a real problem with breeding anything that would cause it pain and discomfort. Theres a breed of hens that are called Cornish Cross that most of us eat without knowing it..but they are bred to grow so fast and big that they can barely move. It bothers me alot that we do this..but it at least serves a purpose. Still I am a believer of humane treatment of critters .

[bluelagoon]

Yes Al, we eat a lot of cruel raised food; same goes with veal, Foie gras (duck liver) and others. Agree with the bulldog discus comment. I'd hate to buy discus that look normal then find out that it had a bulldog gene and threw it to it's off spring.

[Second Hand Pat]

I remember a time when bulldog discus were showing up in many shipments and many discus were showing bulldog traits. Thank goodness that not last too long.
Pat

[jpm995]

I don't like them, too unnatural looking. Reminds me of weird goldfish mutations that people like but looks deformed to me.

[brewmaster15]

I don't like them, too unnatural looking. Reminds me of weird goldfish mutations that people like but looks deformed to me.

And that is why they are a thing.:( People like them... not us people but them other people.:)

I don't care for the shape or what it signifies in terms of breeding but I do wish there was a way to know if what Mervin posted was true.


deformity that curves the spine and compacts the organs. I've read that it could be painful.. I have seen that before posted. Also that it shortens their life and makes them prone to illness. .. all of which maybe 100% true... or completely unfounded.

There is definitely a knee jerk reaction we have when we see fish that have been overly modified. Everyone has a different level of whats acceptable or not. Its much I think like some of the forms of cats and dogs that are bred. Some of which really do cause significant issues for the animal but they are "cute"

I highly doubt balloon fish are going away..they have become if anything more common. Sad as it is to some hobbyists. But a bright light maybe that these have an uncanny ability to appeal to kids and inexperienced keepers as "cute".. which may act as a gateway drug to get new hobbyists into fish keeping. This benefits all of us in the long run.

If I had the space..I might be tempted to set up a tank and see first hand what the deal is with Balloon Rams. But I don't. I already have Black,Gold,dutch, and wild rams I am breeding and I have my sights set on Electric Blues next. Balloon Rams as ethically questionable as they are just don't rate for a tank.

[jwcarlson]

I have a real problem with breeding anything that would cause it pain and discomfort. Theres a breed of hens that are called Cornish Cross that most of us eat without knowing it..but they are bred to grow so fast and big that they can barely move. It bothers me alot that we do this..but it at least serves a purpose. Still I am a believer of humane treatment of critters .

I've raised quite a few cornish crosses for meat, I think it's more about management than anything. Of course the factory chicken farms are free feeding them, they grow huge... basically outgrow their skeletal structure. I raised mine in a chicken tractor, fresh grass every day and feed only an amount that they consume. They basically force feed themselves. They will not stop if there's feed. Mine would also get very big, but it would take a couple weeks longer than the factory methods. ~8 weeks instead of 5 or 6.

Anyway, just to say that I think there's a place for efficiency in the world of raising things we eat. Chickens wouldn't be a major protein source if it weren't for the cornish cross. It'd probably be rabbits or something else.

All that said... I have no desire to have a balloon fish of any sort and the bulldog discus look terrible. Same with the half black ones that look like they've sustained nerve damage. I think people are finding inventive ways to sell things they otherwise would have to dispose of.

[brewmaster15]

Anyway, just to say that I think there's a place for efficiency in the world of raising things we eat. Chickens wouldn't be a major protein source if it weren't for the cornish cross. It'd probably be rabbits or something else. Jacob I agree with you there. However efficiency is only part of the equation for me. Its efficient to cram animals together and dose with antibiotics prophylactically so we could fit more in bad conditions and increase profit... but that practice was laid to rest as it was also just plan stupid and created super strains of bugs. I'm not knocking the practice of mass produced Cornish Crosses .. though I have a problem with the lack transparency in the process and the lack of humane care. Just like people didnt know about the insane amount of antibiotics.. most do not know about the conditions Cornish X hens are raised in on a commercial scale. Part of that is from it not being so much as labeled on the store product the other part is many people would rather not know. Your background (and mine) as hunters and poultry guys) is a bit different. Im not surprised you treat your food better. :) Besides that.. the extra care translates to better quality food.

[brewmaster15]

But back to Balloon fish. Has anyone seen anywhere pictures of them raising fry?


http://youtu.be/euCfwI5WCas?si=Sul40n5YVPz72NU_

Im surprised how well this pair has done... the fry seem to move a bit slower to me. I wonder if they breed true.

[coralbandit]

In all my time breeding rams they produced one balloon ram.
It was a very good-looking specimen and as much as I tried it would not breed with others.
I never knew the sex for sure so kept it in 2 or 3 different grow out tanks where pairs were allowed to form naturally.
Al is right that these disaster of a fish are good thing for the hobby if handled proeprly.
It really seems that balloon anything has appeal only to be matched by the horrible dwarf gourami to new inexperienced keepers~!
But if we as a respectable hobby can help those newbs past their initial contact we may have gained another great keeper to our dwindling population.
Over on FL there were many anecdotal stories from people who claimed to have kept them for 2+ years.
Few if any ever provided proof or were convinving enough to beleive.
I would have liked to bred my own strain of balloon rams from perfectly normal stock.
Would have been a HUGE seller.

[CliffsDiscus]

I remember a time when bulldog discus were showing up in many shipments and many discus were showing bulldog traits. Thank goodness that not last too long.
Pat

I remember buying the turquoise Discus only to fine out they produce a small percentage of bulldog. The bulldogs were culled and there were many takers I even had some heart shaped too.
As for the balloon rams last remember before Covi the wholesaler orders thousands of them weekly for local pet shops.

[Iminit]

I happen to have a deformed ram now.139434. Probably born September of last year. Had a pair but the other died. That pic is from Feb and it doesn’t look like it will be around much longer. This was my first attempt at artificially raising them. Did a terrible job but this guy has survived. Can’t imagine why somebody would want to continue this. But if there’s buyers there’s sellers. I can see kids wanting them. Like glo fish. Short life span = more sales. I get the fact that people don’t like domestic discus. They are fake. Man made as parrot fish,flowerhorns and glo-fish. Just a lot more expensive :). Flowerhorns excluded.

[brewmaster15]

I get the fact that people don’t like domestic discus. They are fake. Man made as parrot fish,flowerhorns and glo-fish.

As someone that spends a fair amount of his time breeding wild and domestic fish and crossing back domestic to wilds this irony isn't lost on me.

The irony there Tom is that it ignores the fact that the moment you collect Wilds and breed them you have the exact same thing.. and F1 offspring from two wilds in captivity isnt a wild and can never be one. Why? Because in the wild natural selection determines which fish survives to breed.In captivity its the human owners preferences and prejudices. The natural environment, predator pressures, foods and parasites etc determine which fish breed in the wild and what genes are passed down. Theres really no difference between a wild in captivity and a domestic.. both exist at the whim of their human owners. The entire system they live in is artificial.

Its really just a preference for whats deemed a natural looking fish over a fish thats been selectively raised to be a different color or shape or pattern. We didn't make the genes that created the domestic forms. We gave naturally existing genes in the wild fish an environment where they could survive to reproduce...in effect, its human selection vs natural selection... but its the same process at its core.

For alot of "cichlid keeper" purists that don't like domestic discus its personal. I think they are just salty that their personal favorite cichlid species lack the genetic plasticity to be as diverse and beautiful as Discus.:). They probably also resent the fact that Discus are called the king of the aquarium. I do wonder though how these purists face their cats and dogs knowing they are " fake and man made" and even more genetically removed from their wild ancestors. :)

[Second Hand Pat]

So I prefer wilds but I don't dislike domestic discus. :D I simply prefer wilds because they show subtle behaviors that I have not seen in domestics. I have kept domestics but get bored with them after a while.
Pat

[fljones3]

Some are more purists ... and others all along the line between two extremes.

[Iminit]

Well I like domestic discus. The colors make them. Just don’t care for wilds. Also wonder just how wild the ones out there are. We know supply and demand. Wilds are very popular now. Everybody has them and for crazy prices. Funny how they arrive with all the Asain discus.

[Second Hand Pat]

Well I like domestic discus. The colors make them. Just don’t care for wilds. Also wonder just how wild the ones out there are. We know supply and demand. Wilds are very popular now. Everybody has them and for crazy prices. Funny how they arrive with all the Asain discus.

Where do you see this happening Tom?
Pat

[bluelagoon]

I can't wait until the fluorescent gene is introduced into discus, like they've done to Glo tetras and some others. But that's just another modification and nothing really harmful.

[Iminit]

Pat. Locally for sure but even the sponsors have been doing it.

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat. Locally for sure but even the sponsors have been doing it.

Hi Tom, are you referring to wild crosses (as in discus)?
Pat

[For100]

I can't wait until the fluorescent gene is introduced into discus, like they've done to Glo tetras and some others. But that's just another modification and nothing really harmful.

This idea did not even cross my mind…. No offense to anyone, but I hope I don’t see one any time soon

[Willie]

Devils advocate here. If the normal life expectancy of a Ram is. 2 years and whats being sold in Petshops are fullgrown adults which I suspect are slow growers is 6 months life expectancy really unexpected? Im pretty sure most imported Rams with normal bodies have similar expectancy when bought as full grown. Of note also is that probably 99.99% of balloon rams are imported and 99.99 %of those that buy them do not quarantine.

Brew's point is well taken. I used to spawn German rams like crazy back in the day. They required very little room and will spawn on little clay pots. As soon as they spawned, I'd pull the pot and raise them separately. German rams will mature in 6 months and these 5/8" long fish, with almost no color, will spawn every 15 days! As they age, the spawns would drop in frequency. Yup, I made a ton of money selling them at our local fish club. It got so crazy that I started selling entire spawns to wholesalers because I was running out of grow out tanks.

I sold very few of these to local fish stores because they only wanted 1.25" long fish with full color. If you've spawned a lot of German rams, you know that their entire lifespan is only 15 - 18 months at 82F. I know because I kept multiple generations of German rams so I had records of their birth dates. However, a 1.25" long fish with full color is at least 12 months old and has maybe 1 spawn left. So the stores ended up with my burnt out pairs. A retail customer would get fish with 4 - 5 months of life left and consider them to be very difficult fish to raise and spawn.

These days, all the rams are bred in ponds in Asia. I don't know exactly how they're raised, but they're much more difficult to spawn in the tank. Likely the continuous inbreeding has significantly reduced fertility and vitality. If you can source wild caught ones (which are not as colorful), they'll be much easier to raise and spawn.

As for balloons, that's really up to the eye of the beholder. It's a common mutation where the spine is shortened and seen in my species, e.g. platys. You should know that the high-body discus from Asia is created with this same mutation. In one dose, it produces a beautifully tall discus. In a double dose, it's produce the bulldog type (which I despise). If you spawn two high body discus, you'll see ~25% of the next generation show up as bulldogs.

[Willie]

I can't wait until the fluorescent gene is introduced into discus, like they've done to Glo tetras and some others. But that's just another modification and nothing really harmful.

A local hobbyist reports he saw angelfish with the fluorescent gene in a fish show. I'm intrigued.

[brewmaster15]

This idea did not even cross my mind…. No offense to anyone, but I hope I don’t see one any time soon
I'd be surprised if they made Glo Discus.. too difficult to breed, too long to mature, and too small a market to be worth the investment, IMO.

[Vanman]

I'd be surprised if they made Glo Discus.. too difficult to breed, too long to mature, and too small a market to be worth the investment, IMO.

Let's hope so.

[illumnae]

A local hobbyist reports he saw angelfish with the fluorescent gene in a fish show. I'm intrigued.

It's been done since 2012: https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2012/11/09/2003547259

I'm guessing the trend didn't catch on as I don't see them often, even in Asia where I'm located.

[brewmaster15]

I'm finally going to get rich from breeding fish! HURRAY! I just noticed 1 unique Baby Ram out of 75+ boring normal.ones. It clearly carries the balloon gene and parrot
gene. :eek:

A Normal Gold Ram

139456

My ultra special "Gold Balloon Parrot Ram"

139457

This will be huge! I can not believe how lucky I am!

[Second Hand Pat]

:p:crazy::cheesy::badmin:

[brewmaster15]

:p:crazy::cheesy::badmin:

Now now Pat.. you know you want to be added to fry list..admit it.:)

[Second Hand Pat]

Not for any "special" fry but otherwise you are reading my mind :p
Pat