CAN YOU HELP ME?

[fredg18]

Hello There,
I have a pair of Blue Diamonds that are not eating, one has gone dark and the other one does not look well at all.

One gill is closed, they are both tilting on their sides at the top of their tank and there also looks like a bit of fin rot setting into their fins.

All the water parameters are correct ph 6.8, no ammonia, no nitrates either and temp is 29 degrees celsius. :( >:(

[Ardan]

Hi and Welcome!
THis could be several things or a combination of things IMO.
Is this tank bare bottom or does it have gravel and or plants? If you have gravel and/or plants this problem may be difficult to clear up as the substrates can harbor the pathogens.  
What is the "nitrite" level?
It sounds like there is a bateria or fungus problem with the fins and possibly with the gill.  (hanging at top of tank with one gill shut can indicate lack of oxygen intake) Is any slime coming form under the gill plates? Is the gills off colored or are they breathing fast?
Before this started was there  a lot of scratching and rubbing against things by the fish? If so, it could indicate flukes or external parasite, which could be at the root of some of these problems. Flukes in the gills can cause them to hang at the top of the tank and try to get air. Are they gulping for air at all?

The not eating could be related to the above, but could also indicate internal parasites. When a fish gets stressed from one thing, a lot of times multiple pathogens/parasites will take advantage of the weakened fish.
Was there any abnormal feces??
If there was white slimy feces then it is very possibly Hexamita parasite (flaggelate) and mixing Metro in the food would be good. You may have to tube feed them using a syringe and airline tube. hold the fish in a damp towel, head up, have the food in the syringe with the tube attached, insert the tube in the fishes mouth and inject 1 cc. some will come out the gills, some will get i the stomach. Here is a link for hex and how much metro in food http://www.simplydiscus.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=disease;action=display;num=10180268 03
If there was yellowish feces like this http://www.simplydiscus.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=disease;action=display;num=10245382 54
then it is likely that it has an internal nematode worm called Capillaria and you need to mix Fenbendazole (Panacur) in the food and feed by syringe if necessary. You can get panacur from a vet (they use it for deworm dogs and cats). Or you can use flubendazole in the food. Or Praziquantel in the food. I have them in order of preference.
Here is a link for panacur in food http://www.simplydiscus.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=disease;action=display;num=10180319 65
Here is a link with info on prazi in food http://www.simplydiscus.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=disease;action=display;num=10180566 63

I don't know what med is available to you in Australia, that is why all the options above. Also it depends on what you have seen, if any abnormal feces and what they look like. The med in the food depends on what feces, if you didn't notice abnormal feces, it could be hexamita and I would use metronidazole in the food (also known as hexamit).

How long have you had the fish? What size tank? What is your water change routine? Is the ph stable for water changes (does the ph change between drawing from the tap and 4 hrs later after aeration in the water)? Does your water in the tap have chlorine or chloramine and if so are you using the proper water treatment before adding water to the tank?
Is there any bloating (swelling out of the stomach)? If so, how long has that been? IF so you can add epsom salt at 2 tablespoons/10 gal water. It should help within 2 days to relieve bloating, otherwise it is not enough, and more must be done.

This is a long list of things to check as I am not sure when we will hear back and forth from each other. I will check this evening after work to see if you have had a chance to answer the questions, or if this helped, or if you need more info. This is all my jmo and thoughts. More info would be helpful.
Can you post some pictures?

hth (hope you can answer all the questions as that may help figure out the cause of the problems)

Ardan :sunshine:

[Ardan]

Hi Again,
I thought of a few more questions today.

How long ago did this all start?

Do you have access to praziquantel or flubendazole or Metronidazole (hexamit), furan 2 or panacur (fenbendazole) if we need these? (we most likely don't need them all, but am wondering what you have to work with if we need it)

I look forward to hearing from you and will try to help.

Ardan :sunshine:

You can add 2 tablespoon noniodized salt/10 gal to start, it may help relieve some of the stress of the fish

[fredg18]

hello steelhead,
The tank that the fish are in is bare bottom and there is no plants in it.  the nitrite level is very low, and there is plenty of oxygen getting into the water.
There appears to be no slime shedding especially around the gills but the fish are breathing a bit hard.
There has been no scratching or rubbing against anything.
the faeces is browny/black but is not solid, I put metro in the tank last night at the recommended dosage, but this morning they still look the same.
I have had the fish for three months now and never had a problem till now.  They are in a breeding tank size 2ft x 18in x 15in and I change the water every day and di not have a fluctuation with the ph.  I use the proper neutraliser in the water and adjust the ph if need be, normally I do a 25% waterchange, so there isnt much variant in the ph and no ammonia. Its got me baffled
Regards
David

[Ardan]

Hi David,
If you want to continue to try the metro, that is certainly ok. It is a bit baffling, but the gill clamped and the breathing hard and hanging at the surface, but without scratching, sounds bacterial or flukes to me.
What do you feed? Any live foods or frozen bloodworms (other than Hikari, they sterilize).Sometimes bloodworms can carry bacteria as can other food.
It looks like you are doing well with water changes, water parameters and temp.
IMO it sounds more like flukes.
Treatment for that is with Praziquantel or Flubendazole.
Praziquantel can be bought at a vet as a dewormer for dogs and cats.
Treatment should last for 21 days, no interruption to get all the flukes and the fluke eggs that hatch.

Here is a treatment for prazi

add Dose = 100mg/10 gal (1/4 tsp/ 20 gal)
wait 48 hrs, change 50% water
wait 24 more hours, change 50%  water again
redose full dose after water change
repeat above regimine for 21 days

if you use flubendazole the schedule is the same
or some use it like this (flubendazole sometimes is toxic to some fish, just so you are aware, a lot of people use it without problem, but if you can get prazi , it is safer)

dose= 1/4 tsp/20 gal
wait 48 hrs, change 50% water, then redose full dose

repeat this for 21 days

Treating for flukes you should see improvement with flubendazole after 5 days. Prazi sometimes takes a bit longer to start working.

If it is hex, you usually see some white slimy feces and then metro is best. IF you want to treat for flukes then you should use carbon (charcoal) to remove the metro from the water first. Use the charcoal for at least 4 hours in the filters imo. You can still put metro in the food if you wish.
jmo
hth
Ardan :sunshine:

[Carol_Roberts]

Chlorine poisoning?
Carol :heart1:

Sounds to me as if the Maria Cruz triple dip treatment may be the answer here (acknowledged by world renowned discus breeder/exporter Cary Strong of Great Lakes Discus as a "sweet" treatment)

This treatment works for just about all ectoparasites. Identification is not a requirement. It kills them all. It also kills any fungus that has attacked the dead tissue of the fish.

What is needed?

3 pails of 4-5 gal. capacity
air pump, tubing, and airstone
rock salt
meth. blue
formalin
net
ectoparasite ridden discus

Procedure:

fill pails with water
in pail #1 - 1 tablespoon rock salt per gallon

in pail #2 - meth. blue. dump in enough to make dark blue. will not harm fish.

in pail#3 - enough formalin to make a 100ppm solution (0.4ml per gal will do this)

Put airstone into pail #1. Net discus and place in pail for minimum of 10 minutes. longer is ok. this will cause osmotic pressure to force fluid out of the parasite, weakening and killing many. prepares discus for step #2.

Move airstone to pail #2. move discus to pail #2 for minimum of 10 minutes. dehydrated bugs will rehydrate and absorb more of the dye. the dead tissue of the discus will also absorb the meth. blue which will prevent fungus from attacking it. fungus will attack only dead tissue.

Move airstone to pail #3. move discus to pail #3 for minimum 10 minutes. watch for stress and make sure you have air in this pail. the formalin will kill much of what is left.

repeat this procedure for 3-5 days. this treatment can be used for all ectoparasite infestations that I have ever come across. malachite green, per lable instructions, can be substituted for meth blue where appropiate. but if fungus is present, I perfer meth. blue.

If the occasion calls for an antibiotic for an external infection, I have found that steps #1 (with malachite green, per lable instructions added to the salt bath) add  effectiveness to the antibiotic if done prior to treatment with the antibiotic. however, put antibiotic into tank before you put the discus back into the tank. this allows osmotic pressure to aid the drug.

Mat

[Ardan]

Thanks Mat for posting that recipe!

I will have to print it out for future reference.

Ardan  :sunshine:

Sure glad you know Maria, I miss seeing her! ;D ;D ;)

Yeah, she's a real sweetheart, but her man, Hector, is one mean dude.  :whip:

Mat  ;D ;)

[brewmaster15]

Hi Mat!
Sounds like a very reasonable treatment  for ectoparasites.

If one were to follow Marias treatment course here, what would Maria  recommend  to treat the Ectoparasites in the tank and bio filter?

Thanks, al

Hi David,
 Can you tell me when the last they ate was and what  you normally feed them.  You mention that you use the proper neutralizer for the water? If you have municipal water  call them up and find out  if  they are doing anything  different.  Maybe they switched from chlorine to chloramine and you neuatralizer isn't working. Its also possible they have worked on the pipes.  
 Before you do anything, I would try doing a massive water  change,    do 90%and then  add 5 gals, adn remove 5 gals until you get almost all the  old water out. Use water that is aged and the same pH/temp, etc.  You can add 2 tablespoon
non-Iodinized Salt /10 gal water to help them deal with teh stress.   See if that make a difference , if not. Mats  treatment sounds like a good starting point to me.

That would of course assume the fish is placed into a clean tank.

Sweet Treatment HeLL *:o
THE MARIA DUMP DIP AND DIVE METHOD IS!
A Dam Good One! I do not want to get into a long story or anything But I just Did that treatment a day ago! it took forever! But the results were Sweet like day and night! well worth it! IMO *;D
TakeCare'
Cary Gld!
P.S. I have also used acraflavin instead of blue with great results as well!

[Barb Newell]

Hi, VERY SWEET TREATMENT.

I, too, used that treatment. It is very good for quick relief. My fish were black, on their sides, gills clamped, gasping for air. Nothing was helping (PP, formalin, Clout)

Soon after starting the triple dip treatment (Maria's!!), I mean Mat's, the fish lightened up and started using their gills again. It also stopped the fin and tail rot. I had a blue diamond with no tail left, and fungus growing on his body. He survived! I sterilized all of the nets, buckets and tank after each dip. Now, my fish still have problems.... ongoing... but the dips helped tremendously as did the 1 tbsp/gal salt in the water and massive water changes.

Barb

[Pick]

Hey Barb,

How are your little guys doing now?

TC

[Tin Pusher]

Thinking of trying the triple dip. Can I add antibiotic to the aquarium if I am also adding salt or should I stop the aquarium salt. Salt is used in bucket #1 already. Which antibiotic and do LFS carry it?