Do flukes kill discus fry?

[Jeffery_Doty]

Hello all,

I recently had a spawn that I pulled from the father at about 2 weeks or so, after they had been eating baby brine shrimp (bbs) for about 3-4 days.  I used 100% water from the breeding tank when I moved them, so same water, same temp.

By the next day they started to die about 10-15 at a time for the next 3 days.  On day 2, I treated with Prazi.  The dying off slowed to 1-2 on day 4.

Maybe it was coincidental that the fry stopped dying after the Prazi treatment, I don't know, but it seemed to work.

My question is, can flukes cause this type of die off or could it be something else?  I know there are so many posibilities, but I need to start somewhere.

Any advice would be gladly taken and appreciated!

Jeff
Oregon

[brewmaster15]

Jeff,
  I think Flukes are  a major killer of  young fry.  Adult fish can harbor the flukes and not show a symptom  because they have a  really large  gill area. The tiny fry though, have less area when compared with the flukes, so the flukes have a much great effect .
  I lost a spawn similar to you, and it was flukes. Did  you notice the fry swimming irratic , rising to the surface , then sinking down, spinning out of control?
   -al

[Bill_P.]

Yup, if you have discus Fry that are dying off slowly and the reason is unknown. More then likely Flukes. I treated mine for flukes they went from two to three dead a day to 0 deaths.




Bill

[Jeffery_Doty]

Thanks Al and Bill.

Yes the fry were acting just as you said Al.  I guess the Prazi must have done the trick.  ;D

So, that leads to my next question:

Will treating the parents with a prazi treatment be enough to protect the next batch of fry?  Can flukes be completely removed from the parent fish, so that there will be no transmission to the fry?
Or, should I also treat the fry when they are pulled from the parents?

Thanks for the help, it was very disheartening to see the fry dying like that.  :'(

But I am feeling better now that I know what the answer is!  #)!

Jeff
Oregon

[brewmaster15]

Hi Jeff,
   Prazi is sold with instructions for  use in treating  flukes. It seems to work but I don't think it is the best and most effective . I tried the 3 treatment on a tank of fry, and  they were soon flashing after.
  Here why I think it shouldn't work well.  Prazi works awesome on tapeworms because it increases the permeability of the worms  skin, removing its protection against the digestive enzymes of the fishes digestive tract. Basically the fish is able to  "digest" the worm now.
 My peronal feeling is that prazi worksin the same fashion on flukes as the info sheet says , but its Liver Flukes, not gill flukes. There is no real digestive enzymes  at the gills. I think it may work okay here, by maybe causing  the flukes  to not be able to balence fluids inside  with outside. But it should have no effect on eggs, which is where the problem lies.
   I had far better success using Flubenole, fluke tabs or formalin.
  I would not rely on prazi for flukes.
 Hth,
al

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
  I may have some additional info  on prazi and  gill flukes very soon.  Jeff can you hold that  thought  for a few days while I see  what I can find out?
 
  Someone was also kind enough  to point out that  my last post looked like  I was  advocating  the use  of some of those drugs.   I try to offer  what has worked for me, and I try to explore and  explain  the mechanisms as to why. In no way am I advocating any medications, at best I can tell you what I have done  in my tanks.  It is also  good  to  keep in mind  that all drugs may have negative effects  on the fish you are treating, and sometimes these are just not well known.  I encourage anyone who has used a medication on their fish and had probelms  to discsuss them. It is the only way we  can learn.

thanks,
al

[Discusgeo]

When my Discus spawn I add formaldehyde 37% or also known as formalin and I have no problem with babies dying. I use Prazi for internal worms which I did all my tanks 6 weeks ago and not a single worm in the bunch. I think this is because of the clean living and excellant food my Discus eat. George /b/

[Carol_Roberts]

My discus didn't pass any worms either when I recently treated with Prazzi.  I think our sources have a lot to do with it.  We're getting clean discus to start with.
Carol  *H*

[Discusgeo]

I believe Carol is correct get you Discus from a good Breeder or Importer and you should be alright. Right now the Discus I own are from Ray Kosaka at Discus Hawaii and Cary Strong of Great Lakes Discus. Both outstanding suppliers in my opinion.
George
/b/

Thanks Goerge'
I guess this would be right about flukes killing fry.
But IMO I would like to state that it's the damage that the flukes cause that accounts for secondary infections which would really be the cause of death to the fry!
I have always parent raised My Discus.  In my early years I raised many spawns that were infested with flukes and I never treated the parents or the fry with any meds.  I just cleaned the water and fed them lots of good foods. I never lost one and most grew very well! BUT! anytime I slacked on W/cs or a good cleaning the fry I lost was high due to gill infections caused by the flukes. JMO!
the Doc is on the clock. hee.heee hee.. ;D ;D ;D
I know you guys + gals were waiting on that heee.heee.hee..  ;D ;D
takecare
Cary Gld!

[Mike_T]

:o :o :o

Who was that masked man?!?! The cupcake creamsicle dreamsicle creator is in the house! ;)

-Mike T

[peety]

I know this is an old thread but can anyone shed some more light please....

I had to pull my fry early from first time parents due to heavy scarring on mom and dad. Fry were at 1 1/2 weeks and just beginning to eat bbs.

My problem is that the fry were fine feeding off the parents but a day after they were removed the kids were spiralling around and piling up on the floor. I've lost most of them over the last 24 hours. What gives? Water changes were the same (I even increased them later in the day).

All fry were feeding (can I feed too much ???) on bbs because they had pink bellys . Can I dose the water prior to removing parents to reduce a chance of this happening again.

Hopefully my pair will be fine for raising to at least 3 weeks next time, but any help on why they died so quick.

Just frustrated at not knowing why :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

peet

[brewmaster15]

Peety,
when you moved them, where id you get the biofilter for their tank? its possible it had flukes .

Its also possible that because you are feeding just BBS, theres more organics in the water. This leads to bacterial -which can attack the gills.

When I raise fry artificially, I have to deal with organics in the water and I often find myself doing 50% WC 2-3x a day in that tank, and wiping it down at least once.

Step,up the hygiene and see what happens.

hth,
al

OK, now I have a question...

My fry are real close to 4 weeks free swimming and growing at a massive rate. I do notice the same symptoms mentioned previously with a few of them. Swimming erratically, spinning etc. I follow the strict tank hygiene procedures faithfully. Should I use the Formalin or Fluke Tabs I have on hand? If so.. at what dosage is recommended for fry at that age?

Quite the fry newbie.... :P

Julz :)

Hi Julz, :-*

I would get ready to move them to a new tank. But before you do.
start treating them with 2drops of hyde to every gallon everyother day for 5 treatments before the move! Also this could be done with prazi and many other meds if your seeing sign's.


Have the new tank seeded clean and ready to go. After the mild treatments are done I would then dip the fry in PP or Hyde just before you move them to there new home.
Salt and heat will be needed after any dip to regenarate the slime coat.

Give Me a call and I'll work out whats best for you! your Discus! and water. Others feel free to email Me at aquastrong@aol.com or call if you like ;D
THANKS
Cary Gld

P.S a short story

Long long ago a breeder in Michigan starts haveing good luck breeding discus never really used any meds. fry were happy and doing well. Every now and then people would tell him he had gill flukes. he would say noway my fry don't die but do scratch!

So anyways he sends them off to the doc's. Sure enough they have gill flukes. The breeder said to the doc how come my fry don't die Because of them like alot of people claim. He said really they won't if the water quality is good and if they are given lots of room and Your tank matance is grade A. Breeder said ok! But No like that his discus have Flukes. years go by and breeder still trying to get rid of flukes with not much sucsess. breeder starts to get very busy and starts slacking on water quality and clean up. after the fact breeder starts loseing lots of fry lots of dashing and scratching. He calls doc to explain. Doc said if they are scratching its a parasite more likely flukes. breeder cleans up his act a bit and falls madly in love with formaldahyde :-*

breeder starts useing it like holy water long baths short baths dips overdose's ETC.... breeder now gets more involed in fish disease's more then ever. anyways he finds hyde to be a great control over gill flukes. Anyways time goes on and breeder starts to see his fry scratch again. calls the doc doc tells him again if they are scratching its parasites or gill flukes.
breeder says ok i'll send you some to test. results come back and the discus is clean no flukes or parasites but they do now have a bac infection that is very commen in all fish tanks.
HMMM breeder thinks!
Again My point was its not allways flukes. If am not mistaken.
it was not the breeder carol got her discus from that gave her good results cause her breeder has FLUKES to. IMO It was cause carol did all the right things and put her heart in to them. carol did you use any meds for flukes? I do not think you did.
THANKS
Well hth helps you think about it!
Cary Gld!

Cary thanks so much for the response. I loved the story too!... ;) Will call you on my way home as I must get back to work now....

Julz :)

P.S. I moved them to the 55 (from the 20's) last week. Will talk to ya more about it later... Thanks again.... :)

Cary, you must be really good at bedtime stories with the kids....HA HA HA

Good advice!!!!!!!!


Randy

[brewmaster15]

Cary,
me think you talk um up heep good story. me think you work off many years experience, and me take-um wisdom from you all da time. Thank you Big ka-hunna discus width big heart! :)


me also take um , da meds you no want anymore ;D ;D ;D ;D

-al

Ya Baby!
I got some love from Brew :-*

I new the stroy would get Ya!

Thanks Everyone! heres a good link as-well
http://www.alpharmaanimalhealth.co.uk/VPDF/MS%20222.pdf

[Carol_Roberts]

*Knock-on-wood* I've never treated fry for flukes and hope I never have to. I don't bring many new fish into my house and those that do come here come from reputable sources.

Carol :heart1: