PH shock during water changes?

[BlueTurquoise]

Hi guys,

This is syndey water perameters (if you want to be particular I am part of the Prospect Reservoir mains) is this: PH7.5, GH 150ppm or 8 degrees, KH 30ppm or 2 degrees. Generally zero Ammonia, nitrates and nitrites although i have not tested tap water for these last 3 things for years.

My question is then when i do a water change of 30% every week and my main tank has peat or some other method of constantly lowering PH to around 6.5 or so, when i do a water change, will the discus get PH shock?

If i do decide to use peat in the filter, can i just simply change the water and let the filter do it's job of lowering PH or is this too much of a shock for the fish? (on a weekly basis as well). Should i use baking soda or another filter with peat in it to codition the water prior to water change?

I especially would like to hear from Sydney siders (if there are any on the boord) or people who have similar tap water and what you do to your water before wc.

My other question is then, if i leave a barrel of 50gal of water to sit for at least a day, will this water's chorine content dissipate? I used to do this with gold fish and it worked well but I am curious about what others' expert opinions are. What if i run a filter with peat on the water during this time, along with a heater, will that effect chlorine dissipation? Or do I have to spend $$ on dechlorinators?

Lastly, if you could elaborate on what you do every water change that would be great!

Thanks guys!  :D

[Carol_Roberts]

If you have chloramine you must use dechlor products.  If you just have chlorine you can fill your barrel and circulate your water for 24 hours and that should get rid of the chlorine.  You may want to buy a test kit to make sure (sold at pool supply places).

Why do you want to lower your pH?  discus prefer constant water parameters. It's better to just add aged tap water rather than trying to lower your pH with peat or chemicals.  

While discus can survive with once a week water changes they will not grow very big.  With once weekly water changes you should stick to dry food only as the water will foul quickly with frozen foods.

I clean two tanks at a time.  I run the hose out the door and siphon the feces off the bottom of tank #1, then as the water is continuing to siphon onto the lawn, I start a 2nd hose in tank#2, siphoning the feces and water onto the lawn.

I place a plastic cup under each prefilter as I remove it.  This keeps junk from falling off into the tank.  It also prevents dripping on the floor as I take the prefilter to the sink for vigorous rinsing. The prefilter is put back on. I check to see if the walls and bottom of the tank need to be wiped down (usually a couple of times a week).  When the water level has dropped by 30 or 40% I remove the hoses, roll them up and place them in a plastic storage can.

I have another hose attached to my storage tank with a water pump.  I begin filling tank #1 while finishing cleaning tank #2. It just takes a few minutes, then I fill tank #2 .  My filters and heaters are on power strips.  I turn the strips off prior to the water change and then turn them back on as the last thing. Lights are plugged in seperately so I can see what I'm doing.

I then refill my water barrel.  I have quick connectors on everything - they just snap together.  When the water barrel is full I roll the hose up and put the spout in the barrel above the water line and turn the pump back on.  This makes a waterfall effect to more rapidly off gas CO2 and stabilize my pH.  I run the pump for three hours.

In addition I have a heater in the tank that runs 24 hours a day.
Carol :heart1:

[BlueTurquoise]

Hi Carol! Thanks for your reply,

I was just about to ask where i can get a chlorine/chloromine test kit  ;D thanks for that.

So how often/much would you need to change the water for them to "grow very big"? Even if it's a 180galon tank with only 8 fish? does the water foul up that quickly? I plan to have a huge wet dry that will cycle probably 5 times the tank water per hour...

I plan to feed them dried foods all week and before a water change i will feed them a treat like beef heart (This is mainly because i work 9-5 all week and get home quite late) I usually only have 5 mins to feed my fish in the morning before we are both out the door to work, so I can only manage a 2 feeds a day routine for me.

As for peat and PH, my tap water is PH is 7.5 or greater (it is very hard to tell the difference between 7.5 and 8 on my test kit, but it is definately not less than 7.5). Discus are OK with 7.75PH? (average of 7.5 and 8) Will they like such a high PH?

currently keep my existing community tank at 6.5 constantly for quite some time now using the baking soda solution. They are hapy little tikes. the problem is this is a 50 gal tank and I am planning a tank 4 times this size and was wondering if such a large amount of Sodium Bicarb was good for water chemistry. If peat makes the PH fluctuate then can i not prepare the water that i am about to use for my wc by adjusting it's PH to the right levels before pumping it into the tank? This is what i do now and it's not doing too badly...

Basically once PH is set in a tank and there are no other factors like peat or corbon injectors, will the PH still fluctuate? Will it fluctuate if i change 30-50% water that has been declorinated, heated, and aerated for 24 hours and PH adjusted to the same PH as the tank, measured at the end of the 24 hours?  ??? ??? ??? hmmm...

Thanks for your input. I appreciate it!

[Carol_Roberts]

I have hard water and high pH.  My pH is 6.8 from the tap, rising to 7.8 after 3 hours of heavy aeration.  My tanks stay at 7.8.  You have soft water and your pH falls over time as the carbonates are used up.  Your problem is to stabilize your water so the pH doesn't crash.  Frequent water changes will help this so you don't have to add soda or anything else to your water.

Sodium bicarbonate raises pH, peat lowers it. I don't understand why you are using both?  By the way, it doesn't hurt if the change water is somewhat higher pH.  Be careful of lowering the pH too rapidly.

If your going to get baby discus they may feel lost in  a 180 gallon.  have you thought of growing them out in a bare bottom 55. feeding dry food in the morning and frozen or freshfoods as soon as you get home and then again 45 minutes before bed?  It would be easier to do a WC of 20  to 25 gallons in the 55 every day or two.

Another idea would be to buy adult or nearly adult discus.  You could have a nice school of 20 in the 180.

Carol :heart1:

[BlueTurquoise]

Woops, I may be mistaken with some other chemical that is used to lower PH in my Aquasonic PH test kit... I meant that stuff  ;D

7.8ph  :o REALLY? but...I always thought they'd do better in lower PH? Jim Qaurles' book it states about 6ph... I am totally awed that they do so well in higher ph ! ok in that case i will defiantely have to consult local association members over this one (I have been reluctant to go to the association meetings feering that... well I don;t even have a discus...) But if they do so well with you then stuff the peat and chemicals, straight out of the tap for you boys! So with PH up fast is ok, down fast is bad?

By the way i tested my tank fully yesterday and i realised (by consulting my previous tank diary entries) that I have manged to keep the PH at a constant 6.5 for over 6 months using a very small amount of chemicals every water change. Also it seems that my tank has only got GH of 100-110ppm (6 degrees) as apposed to 8 degrees of my regular tap water. Is this the carbon in my aquaclear?

I don't think i will be getting my uncle's baby discus as they are to small and I am not as confident with them as i would be with 8-12 juveniles (3-4 inches) from a lfs or mail order.

Thanks Carol!

[Carol_Roberts]

I was thinking baking soda. Chemistry is not my strong point - *I must have misread your post and thought you were using a product to raise pH in your tank as your water is soft. * :-[

Since you've had 6 months experience and were able to maintain a stable pH over that time, I say go for it. *Lower pH probably is better. *

Yo have soft water. *With hard water it is difficult to mantain a low pH and the fluctuation is bad.

Yes, you have to be careful to lower the pH slowly.

Your pH lowers over time as a result of normal tank processes. *You have less carbonate hardness to begin with but it is easily replaced with frequent water changes.

Carol :heart1:

[BlueTurquoise]

Actually I have kept goldfish for many many years before that but have never really cared about anything at all to do with water perameters (things were so simple back then. 25% waterchange every week, clean out filter once every month or so and my goldfish lived for over 6 years...

Anyway with PH and chemicals i am totally confused too! not too much expereince in the chemical department either  :-/ . But this is what i have been doing in my plantless tank for 6 months:

started with tap water, added PH lower (from ph test kit) until ph was 6.5. Then everytime i change water, i add exactly the same amount of PH down, everytime i do a water change (I have worked it out as a cap full of a small cap of this bottle i found. It is just the right size and it keeps my dosages consistant every time) After waterchange i do a quick PH test and record it into my diary. It has always remained at the 6.5 mark, even after all this time.

I suppose I am now torn as to what i will do with my everyday water change routine. I can keep it as straight tap water and it is about 8ph. Or i can do what i am doing now but my question is if i use this baking soda/PH Lowering powder (???) to my discus water change, it is good for the chemistry of the water using so much of the stuff? It can also be costly if it isn;t just plain baking soda which is cheap.

Anyone with any ideas?

[Carol_Roberts]

Delete baking soda from your thought processes. It raises pH.  :P

What pH is your uncle's water?

Carol :heart1:

[BlueTurquoise]

Sorry! you know what i mean!  :-[  ;) ;D

My uncle does absolutely nothing! i said this in a previous post but i am just worried that 8 is alittle much for new juveniles. I will call my LFS where i plan to get the fish and ask them what their water perameters are...

I was just thinking about the long term and water changes in the long term. Week in, week out...

[Carol_Roberts]

Fish from your uncles will probably be healthier than discus from the fish store. :-X

Babies are fine - you just have to feed them 6 or 8 times a day and change lots of water.  What is the pH of your uncles water?  Is it 8 too?

Carol :heart1:

[BlueTurquoise]

I assume it is 8. He does nothing to the water perameters at all. Just dechlorinator and that's it. No peat, no chemicals just plain tap.

The babies are all blue turqouise. they are prety cute, like miniature discus. I will have to see when i get the tanks how big they are and probably beg for a few off him...

[Carol_Roberts]

That sounds best - and copy what he does.
Carol :heart1:

[BlueTurquoise]

Carol it's Sodium Biphosphate that lowers PH and Sodium Bicarbonate that increases PH. Sorry for the missunderstanding on my part...

[Bass]

BlueTurquoise, I live in Sydney also, and found there's nothing you need to do to our water for healthy Discus. My juvies are doing awesomely well (to me anyway) with straight tap. I tried at first to keep a low pH, but it was a nightmare.

You can get exact %’s of chloramines, ammonia, etc. concentration from Sydney Water’s website.

I always give my holding water a squirt of Prime at ~0.5ml/20L just for peace of mind. But I’ve tried doing a week without it and the Discus didn’t seem to care.

The most important thing the remember about our water is that they keep the GH/KH sitting comfortably on the border between total pH crash and ideal softness, so any attempt to mess with pH can invite disaster. (been there J )  

Small  but frequent water changes seems to work well.

[taybelZ]

Bass, i too had the experience.. wasted quite a lot of time lowering Ph just for raising the babys(breeding is different tho), used lots of chemicals and hi-tech gadgets... but now i just use straight from teh tap Ph. 7.8 ish kh = 60ppms. Just keep it simple. i say. :)
+ u're fishes feaces will naturally lower u're ph a bit as well..

As Carol stated... keeping it stable is more the issue.

Good luck with your fish
;D

[BlueTurquoise]

Thanks guys. That's a huge relief!

If the juveniles have been bred in lower ph, will it be ok in straight tap when i bring em home? or are they all going to go dark black and look very sad like some LFS discus that i have seen?

When you say you used to fool around with PH, does it make a difference that they started off with lower PH and have been slowly introduced to higher ph? My worries are basically if i went and purchased 6 juveniles and bring em home are they going to be ok in tap right away or do i have to acclimate them over 2 weeks or whatever onto pure tap?

Tell me Bass where do you get your discus from???

Thanks! Nathan

[jouniv]

My aged tap is 7.3 or so (conductivity 110) and as I have wilds I use phosphoric acid in attempt to stimulate the breeding, at least in vain trying so. Another day I was quite sloppy and managed to decrease the pH in the tank from 7.3 to 4.8 in a few minutes. Fish started to react by swimming actively (not darting around though), which prompted me to switch on the pH meter. I immediately started using baking soda to bring the pH back to 6. Fish were in the acidic water for 30 minutes or so and are just fine today.
"Discus are tough as nails"

Jouni

[BlueTurquoise]

Jouni,

thanks fo the advice. Tell you what other breed of fish is built like a US aircraft carrier, Bettas! I was looking after one for awhile, it came to me in a small peanut butter jar, the water was totally poluted, had not been changed in 6 days, who knows what PH the water was, temp was 12 degrees C and it was still alive! so i conditioned it to 28 degrees C and it was fine after salt treatment and a week of TLC. Then the friend that i got it from wanted it back after he baught a new 33gal. I took it over to his place and by the time the tank was ready, the water in the bucket was close to 12 degrees again!

It is alive and very happy now. Talk about a tough!

Nathan

[wiseone]

wow this solved one of my problem!



I place a plastic cup under each prefilter as I remove it. *This keeps junk from falling off into the tank. *It also prevents dripping on the floor as I take the prefilter to the sink for vigorous rinsing. The prefilter is put back on. I check to see if the walls and bottom of the tank need to be wiped down (usually a couple of times a week). *When the water level has dropped by 30 or 40% I remove the hoses, roll them up and place them in a plastic storage can.