Chloramines and Archived Info

[Ardan]

Chloramines and Archived Info

Chloramines are a combination of chlorine and ammonia "sometimes" added to water supplies to kill pathogens and make the water safe for consumption. This is not safe to add untreated to the aquarium. There are different ways of dealing with this, including neutralizing the chloramines with products such as prime, amquel, or ammolock (and others). Another way is to remove the chlorine with charcoal or another chlorine neutralizer and then dealing with the ammonia. Ammonia can be dealt with in a holding barrel with a cycled filter running on the holding tank or can be dripped slowly into the aquarium if the biological filters in the aquarium can process the ammonia fast enough.

Here are some links on the internet and at Simply Discus where we have discussed this issue.
http://www.co.arlington.va.us/dpw/wss/wquality/fish.htm
http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-tapwater.html
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_chlorine.htm
http://www.athiel.com/lib/chloram.html
http://www.osmonics.com/products/Page813.htm
Chloramines are coming….help
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=1191
Chloramine and Activated Carbon
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=1214
Dealing with Chloramine
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=1218
Chloramine Thoughts
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=1219
Ammonia in Municipal Water
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=1200;sta rt=0
Definitions of Interest About Water Related Items
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=1185

Ardan

[Ardan]

Pre-Cycling and Archived Info

Pre-cycling an aquarium is getting the biological cycle established in a aquarium and its filters before adding the fish. This creates an environment for the fish that is a lot less stressful, as they don’t have to deal with ammonia and nitrite.
This can be accomplished by adding organics, which contain nitrogen, such as food or ammonium hydroxide (ammonia from the grocery store, with out additives, non sudsy, no scent), to the aquarium and letting the bacteria build up in the filters. During this time, no water changes should be done. If adding ammonia, enough is added until the level on a test kit is brought up to about 5 mg/l and maintained at that level until the bacteria start processing it in less than a day to 0. Continue to add ammonia or food until the nitrite spikes and returns to 0. A large water change should be done before adding the fish to drop the “nitrate” level. (use pretreated water, remove chlorine) Then the fish can be added and the biological filters should be able to process the nitrogen wastes from the fish. If there is a period of time between finishing the cycling and adding the fish, some food or ammonia should be continually added to “feed” the bacteria and keep them alive until the fish are added.
Products such as Nitromax or Cycle or Bacter Plus sometimes speed up the cycling process. Without additives it can take 4 to six weeks.


Internet Resources:
http://www.aaquaria.com/aquamag/cycle2.html
http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquamag/cycling.html

Discussions pertaining to this topic previously on Simply Discus are at the following links:

Directions for a Fishless Cycle
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=381;star t=0
Fishless Cycle
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=449;star t=0
The Nitrogen Cycle
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=2;action=display;threadid=934

Ardan

[bokgrasul]

Thank you for sharing your experience with us!
For me ,it really helps!
8)

[bokgrasul]

Thank you for sharing your experience with us!
For me ,it really helps!
8)

[ronrca]

Question I have is this:
When you add Seachem Prime to tapwater, it breaks the bond between the chlorine and ammonia (chloramine). As a result, ammonium is left behind instead of ammonia. Ammonium, being the non-tonix form of ammonia, still "cycles". So what happens, does it turn into nontoxic form of nitrites? Or not?

[jeep]

Arden, I have read many replies, posts and links to the problem with chlorimines and I am as confused as ever on how to get rid of them other than chemical products.

It seems the most popular way of dealing with this issue is through carbon and or biological filtration. I have read many sofisticated ways of setting up such a system and some who have done it say there are still chlorimines in their water. If carbon-cycling does work, then:

1. Would a simple box filter loaded with phosphate-free carbon work? (or ammo-carb mixed in?)

2. If so, would that type of carbon be bad for the discus?

Sorry to re-hash this issue, but all this reading and all these opinions have only confused me more.. I am willing to experiment but I also want to keep my fish safe until I find a solution.

Thanks,

Brian

[Ardan]

Hi Brian,
Chloramines = chlorine + ammonia.
If you use an inline carbon filter it only removes the chlorine, not the ammonia.
To get rid of the ammonia, you have to use prime or amquel etc
or
you can use a biological filter in the holding tank to convert the ammonia to nitrite then to harmless nitrate.

Do this in the holding tank then it will not affect the discus (carbon in the water line before the holding tank)
Carbon in the aquarium has been associated with some diseases including HITH (hole in the head)

hth
Ardan :sun:

[Barb Newell]

Hi Ardan, great information of fishless cycling. You share so much valuable information with us. Thank you so much.

Barb :)

[jeep]

Thank you. That was direct and to the point and I was unsure about the effect carbon had even though I had heard it was not good for discus.

Brian

[jeep]

Last question. Bioloical filter in the holding tank, would a cycled sponge filter work???

[Ardan]

Hi Jeep,
Sure, use a cycled sponge filter from a disease free tank.
Ardan :sun:

[jeep]

Thank you so much!!! :)

At least now I can keep my discus safe until I can learn the details!!!

Brian

[TOMMY]

Now we are getting technical! :P
I would like the answer to that too!

-Tom-

[Ardan]

It turns into nitrite. as far as I know there is no "nontoxic nitrite". Salt helps fish deal with nitrite (only if the ph is above 7.0)
Ardan

[ronrca]

Thanks Ardan! I didnt know salt works over 7.0 ph. My concern is when communities increase chloramines to deal with bacteria problems, ammonium levels go up (no big deal) but so will the nitrites. I guess it will depend on your bio if it will handle the increase.

I asked Seachem about how Prime works on nitrites. Here is their answer:


"The detoxification of nitrite by Prime (when used at elevated levels) is not well understood from a mechanistic standpoint. The most likely explanation is that the nitrite is removed in a manner similar to the way ammonia is removed; i.e. it is bound and held in a inert state until such time that bacteria in the biological filter are able to take a hold of it, break it apart and use the nitrite. Two other possible scenarios are reduction to nitrogen (N2) gas or conversion into a benign organic nitrogen compound.

I wish we had some more "concrete" explanation, but the end result is the same, it does actually detoxify nitrite. This was unexpected chemically and thus initially we were not even aware of this, however we received numerous reports from customers stating that when they overdosed with Prime they were able to reduce or eliminate the high death rates they experienced when their nitrite levels were high. We have received enough reports to date to ensure that this is no fluke and is in fact a verifiable function of the product. Prime has the ability to bind these pollutants for up to a 24 hour period and can be used daily until your biological filter can catch up."

Hope this helps.

Dave

[TOMMY]

Thanks Dave. That was an excellent post! If only our lives problems could be explained like so!

-Tom-

[engineguy129]

Thank you for the info!

Rob ;D

[engineguy129]

good info thank you!

Rob ;D

[carman]

awesome!

[Pick]

Hi Steelhead!

Are the nitrifying bacteria the same for marine aquariums? I presume they are but I was wondering if I could take a fishless cycled sponge and start a marine aquarium just like we do for discus tanks?

TC

[Ardan]

Hi Terry,
Good question, I do not know the answer for sure. I have never had saltwater aquariums and have never tried it. I believe I read an article where the bacteria are named the same, nitrobacter and nitrosomonas, but their environment is different and the bacteria are somewhat different. I will look for that article.

I do know that the "starter cultures" of bacteria that are sold at petshops and www.drsfostersmith.com are different for freshwater and saltwater.

If you try it, I would be interested in the results. I wouldn't depend on it though with expensive saltwater fish. Precycle a saltwater tank or get hardy saltwater fish. I know that ammonia is much more toxic to saltwater fish than freshwater, and nitrite is suppose to be less toxic to saltwater fish. (from "Aquarium Fish" magazine)

I will look more for the article, If I find it I will post the quotes and where its from.

hth

[Pick]

Thanks Ardan.

TC

[Carol_Roberts]

When my son was trying to cycle a salt water tank a couple of years ago I took over a cycled sponge from an aqua clear to see if it would speed the process. It didn't do anything :-\

[Smokey]

I would like to add a personal expierence: REGUARDING USING A CYCLED FOAM IN THE STORAGE WATER BARREL TO REMOVE THE AMMONIA.

A cycled foam will consume the AMMONIA, then the NITIRES, and then prduce ''NITRATE''.
To me , personally speaking, this action was self - defeating!!!
The stored water, after being cycled by the foam, produced a ''NITRATE'' reading of 5ppm's.
I, personally, do not allow the ''NITRATES'' in the discus tanks, to exceed 10ppm. This is the sign to do the water change. Twice a day, 50%, if I am feeding heavily!
So, I found that replaceing my discus water - with a reading of 7ppm, - with water - reading 5ppm... doubled my w/c's. and increaed my time servicing the tanks.

Personally speaking - the chlorine/ammonia removing products availabe are worth every cent...

P.S. - it is generally agreed UPON that discus do best in water with less than 10ppm '' NITRATES.

Yes -- WATER CHANGE...WATER CHANGE...WATER CHANGE.
the only answer[???].

Smokey

[H Tran]

Hi All,

So what would be the best product, in your experience, to treat chloramines?

[Smokey]

Presently I am using a product called -- Laguna - water prep. It is found in the garden pond section - 5ml, treats 100 liters. It is distributed by Hagen. Inexpiencive and it WORKS -- just a concentrated form of the other products. mpo.

Smokey

[ronrca]

Same here, Laguna Pond water treatment! Much cheaper than buying the water conditioners from the lfs in the little 500ml bottles.

There is also Seachem Prime Pond that works well plus just as cheap as Laguna per dosage. ;)