Water hardness and growth? [Archive]

brewmaster15

05-31-2002, 07:10 AM

Hi all,
  I've been reading thru a  few posts on the boards  lately and I have  a question , looking for an answer...

  Is there really  relationship between  the hardness of the water  and growth of the discus? Or is there just a minimal amount of dissolved minerals necessary for the fishes ( and other aquatic life's) respiration to occur?  I know the general consensus is  Yes, you need  a certain amount of dissolved  minerals  for the fish to grow  proper, my question is  what is that amount, and where do we get this info from?
   Heres my reason for asking about this.... The waters of the amazon are very soft, and the wilds do fine with them, which means to me that the  majority of  minerals  they require  for things like (bone) growth probably comes  from the  diet? I don't have Maynards  book with me on the Amazon, but if someone  does , can you post some of the parameters of the water from  it here?
One would think those parameters would be  a good indication of what a Discus  should do well in.

  So whats everyones  experiences and opinions here? I'm  not questioning anything anyone has posted, just looking for info, and trying to make sense of it all.

Take care,
al

April

05-31-2002, 07:40 AM

good question. All I know is ive been told my water was too mineral poor. and since ive added kent ro to get it up to 100 ms. my fish have grown way better. and i know Mikes and carys grow out water is 233 ms. and Hans..is 600 ms. And they've all told me they grow out better in harder water. end of my knowledge. Maybe they do get some minerals there out of the food etc we don't in a tank.

John_Nicholson

05-31-2002, 07:57 AM

I have never done any major test on it but I talke to Jack Wattley about it and he was convinced that they grew faster and bigger in hard water.  That was all I needed to know.

-john

Lynn

05-31-2002, 09:07 AM

Hi Al,

I'll add my .02 here....The fact that our domestic discus grow better in hard water is quite contrary to their natural environment. Do we really know how long it takes for a wild discus to mature? Maybe they grow slower in the amazon and we accelerate the process in our tanks. Due to the purity of the water in the amazon it has been said that discus obtain everything from their diet. So what do they eat? Lots of bugs, and they probably pick at lots of stuff in the water. Who knows whats in bugs? Maybe a larval stage of some fly is loaded with minerals....like BBS has that good stuff in the yolk sac. IMO the harder water is a substitute for the missing ingredient, much like beefheart is a substitute for good protein.
Just my ponderings on the subject, wish I had answers too, Brew!

brewmaster15

05-31-2002, 09:12 AM

Thanks,
This is the kind of dialogue I was hoping for . I have this bad habit,  I want to know all the whys to the  things we do. This one I think needs  a little work ;) :)
-al;

Don_Lee

05-31-2002, 09:44 AM

Hi Al,

I just happen to be reading Maynards book, and can give you some measurements:

Rio Trombetas
pH-5.0
Conductivity-18
Water temp-31C
Carbonate hardness(german degrees)-1.1
Ammonium-.05
Nitrite-.06
Nitrate-none

Abacaxis-System/Rio Maues
ph-6.2
Temp-32C
Conductivity-17
Carbonate Hardness-.3
Total Hardness-.2
Ammonium-.29
Nitrite-<.02
Nitrate-<1.0

Hope that helps.

Don

05-31-2002, 01:06 PM

Al, from what ive seen harder water = better growth faster for awhile.
Russ the other fish guy in town keeps his water very soft,ans a ph around 3.9 to 4.2.
Well his fish out spawn and he has better hatch rates, they dont grow very fast at all. I can double the size in the same time for the first few months. My water for fry is right out of the tap. High PH, 135 to 160 ppm
Added to that, his fish catch up later on in life, and he grows his fish as large or larger in the end.( depends on the fish)
Now does this mean anything?
Who knows.
Does a fish that grows slower mean it will be runted in the long run, given good care throughout its live.
It is a very intresting subject.
Take care, Matt

Carol_Roberts

05-31-2002, 01:19 PM

For me it's a balancing act.  I know with my GH 12 and pH 7.8 I have to be very careful to do water changes and filter maintainance.  If I get lax they don't eat as well and their growth slows.
Carol :heart1:

brewmaster15

05-31-2002, 01:38 PM

Thanks for the info Don!,
  Conductivity of 17 us and carbonate hardness of about .3-1 , Thats  pretty darn soft!   I say diet  has got to play a big role here.

 One idea  that comes to mind  from all the info and  experiences  that you aLL have mentioned so far is suppose the fish loses minerals  to the water around it. In hard water  less would be lost  by passive diffusion  than in soft water because diffusion  works on a gradient   as it tries to reach equilibrium. In soft water there is  very little of these minerals so  you would have movement  from areas  of high concentration(the fish) to low concentration (the water). If you already had these minerals  inthe water. less would leave the fish, and could be used  for growth.
So back to the wilds, why do they seem unaffected  by  this lack of hardness  in the water?  May be the same thing occurs but  their intake in their food is greater, so the loss to the water isn't noticed? Or maybe  their slime coats are so much better (possibly because  of the acidity  of the water) That they are able to block  Diffusion out of their bodies. Theres also the wild fishes diet and habits to consider, of note they are cichlids so I'd bet small fish, amphibians play a role  in the diet (high in calcium) , how about small  fresh water mollusks, and worms?? and the way the discus evolved  to eat by blowing  and picking food off the bottom, how much mineral containing debris is  ingested?

   Just trying to rationalize/speculate/ imagine  why something works one way  in nature but not in our tanks.  I appreciate all the info so far. And I do what all you do  in terms of raising the fish  in harder water  than  what the pairs spawn in it, but the reasons why are far from  clear,except that it seems to make  a difference.
  Ideas anyone?
-al

bmrin1

05-31-2002, 01:52 PM

Brew.
I think that you and everyone else is correct in *the assumption and or observations that our discus do grow better in hard water. *Your original question about how hard is too hard if there is a too hard is interesting.
When I got my first batch of discus from Mike I had a horrific time. *They would not eat and were very stressed. *My water is extremely hard, over 750 microsiemens. *Well I started mixing the well water with DI water at about 80% tap and 20% DI and the fish took off. *The resulting water hardness was down to 420 microsiemens. *It could be that the conductivity was too high or that both were too high and that both values have dropped. *The end result was that fish did better. *So now with the latest batch that were much larger they are in straight tap again. *They are not eating as well and they are by appearance under more stress.
As to the conductivity issue, I have in my previous experience with discus several years ago raised and managed a couple of spawns in water that went through the water softener. *Low "hardness" but conductivity in the 700 to 800 range.
To make a general statement as to my experience I think that over 500 microsiemens is too hard.
Brian

Ardan

05-31-2002, 05:08 PM

Hi Al,
Here is a link you may really enjoy. It has a lot of chemistry and biology of the Amazon. A lot about potential live food for Discus found naturally in the Amazon, etc.
http://www.amazonian-fish.co.uk/indexbuy.html

I haven't read it all, nor do I understand it all, but I find it interesting, You might too. ;)

Ardan :sunshine:

05-31-2002, 05:14 PM

My thoughts are similar to the results Matt and Russ get with their spawns. I believe breeders have found some tricks to improve the growth rate of fry in captivity compared to wild discus. This ensures a faster turnover and more money. Wild discus do grow large in the wild, only not as fast. They catch up with time. I have seen huge Heckle and Tefe wilds for sale.

Mat

yogi

05-31-2002, 05:49 PM

I think Lynn,  Matt (with his story on Russ) and bad dog all touched on some possibilities. As far as Jack Wattley and harder water for grow outs he does have first hand experience.

It was actaully Jack's friend Jim Bloom who found it, or maybe not. Jack was on R/O near the beach and Jim was slightly inland with his tanks on well water. When Jack visited Jim he noticed Jim's fish were larger than his even though they were from the same spawn.

There reasoning lead them to believe it was because Jim's well water was about 500ms and Jack's R/O water was under 100ms. Jack started taking 5 gallon Jugs of Jim's well water to raise his fry in. If Jack used well water from his house it would of been brackish.

There is another possibility here. All of Jim's tanks were outside in a wooden shed. When he did a water change he just turned a valve and flooded his tanks. Water just pours over the sides on to the ground. He doesn't remove any water first. Later he just turns the valve off. His water changes are masive and who knows how many times per day he did this.

So is it the slighly harder water that causes quick growth or large water changes? In the long run do fish raised in soft water catch up to those raised in harder water?

One other thing to ponder is in the wild it's surival of the fittest. In our tanks we try to raise and keep alive as many as possible. Different breeders have different opinions on what should be culled.

Denny

05-31-2002, 07:38 PM

this is just a thought but it seems to me that someone should do control groups of fish from the same spawn and chart growth through various stages. this could be accomplished by splitting a batch of fry from the same spawn and keeping a like number in twin side by side tanks.  by feeding identical food in identical quantities at identical intervals. lighting would also be of the same type for each tank. temp controlled by identical thermometers and calibrated by using two thermometers in each tank to get an accurate temp.

now that we have specimens,heat ,light, and food all constant, we could use water as the lone variable and by changing identical amounts of water for each tank, one using hard water and the other using soft water, with hardness and softness parameters subject to debate but as long as they are far enough apart and consistent in tds and ph. this will establish a base trial.

anyone willing to give it a shot?   this would be an awesome test and put alot of myths to rest. of course multiple teset will reveal trends and we could go on forever.

just a thought

05-31-2002, 10:14 PM

Hi everybody! My Aqua doc told me it didn't matter if my discus got trace minerals through the water or through the food, just as long as they get it! I feed my discus a large variety of foods and several times a day.

I use straight R.O. water and have the Kent RO right too, but have never used it because of what my doctor told me. I have exceptional growth with my discus. I have a few that I bought at 1.5 inches and 8 weeks later they were at 4-5 inches! My water is very soft, pH is 6.7 and have about 50-100 ppm of total dissolved solids. I believe diet is the key which also enhances their color.

Good quality water is important, hardness of water good for growing bones in younger discus, but harder water is only more trace minerals which can easily be given through a broad food supply. Also, if your discus are nutritional fit, their immune systems will be much stronger when fighting off the nasties....

05-31-2002, 10:52 PM

Please share us your discus diet secret.  I want my discus to grow bigger than Brew  :P

06-01-2002, 07:57 AM

Hey All

as Ive stated in the past.... for years I have been keeping and breeding adult pairs in straight R.O. water...TDS about 10ppm give or take... ph 6.5- 6.8.
Fry would be left with the parents anywhere from 2 weeks to a month.  when I removed them from the breeding tank they would be switched to tap.....I personally never noticed a huge difference in growth from straight R.O. to tap. There was always some improvement in growth....but I always attributed it to more room...heavier water changes...etc. The fry I grew out myself never showed any ill effects from being kept in pure R.O. for the first month of thier lives.
Ive been told MANY times that I couldnt...shouldnt...cant...keep discus in straight R.O. And while I have never grown out discus right from fry to adult in straight R.O.....(although I have NO doubt it could be done) I have kept adult pairs in straight...pure R.O. for up to 2 years....all the discus remained healthy...ate well....had average to large spawns. Go figure? IMO diet and clean water(regardless of mineral content) are the two main determining factors in healthy growing discus.JME.

Tony

yogi

06-01-2002, 09:00 AM

Fishboi, I do not think the hard water caused the fish to grow faster. That is why I mentioned the other possibility of large water changes. I did forget to mention the ph of his well water is 8.0.

In the early 90's I bought 20 one inch pandas off of Jim. I had to acclimate them from his 500ms, ph 8 water to my tank water 200ms, ph 6. As the fish grew I sold some off. There was only one cull in the batch and that was for having a vey pointy face. I kept it instead of killing it. The pointy one and the other nine I kept all reached six inches.

As far as the way Jim bred his fish. They were all on R/O water with ms under 100 and ph about 5.5. It was only his grow outs that were kept in well water. And like I already said I think the growth was do to massive water changes.

DarkDiscus

06-01-2002, 09:41 AM

Hey Jerry,

I am going to try to post those pics I took of your fish this weekend.  I still have to figure out how to shrink them!

As for the fish growth, I agree that the massive water changes are the key.  Also, It works for other fish and not just discus.

John

06-01-2002, 10:47 AM

Darkdiscus,

Send me pix and I'll post it for ya.  I have some spaces on my website and we'll just link it.

06-04-2002, 05:39 PM

Hi Fishboi. *:) *I also do water changes (30% of a 75 gallon) every 3 days (more if needed) and I feed my fish the following: (Rotating flakes and frozen; Feed flake first, then frozen with every feeding)

Ocean Nutrition Community Formula Flakes
Earthworm flakes
Plankton flakes w/ spirulina
Hikari krill freeze dried
Omega One first flake
Tetra Color Bits
Tetra Color
Spirulina Algae flakes
Frozen blood worms
frozen brine shrimp
frozen mosquito larvae
frozen Jack Wattley Community
Frozen Jack Wattley Discus Formula

and then I make my own batch of frozen food.
(2 different kinds)

First batch: *:bounce:

3 fresh eggs
5 oz frozen green peas
1 lb frozen shrimp
1 lb fish fillets (skinless, boneless - avoid fatty fish meat)
5 oz frozen carrots
1 fresh banana
5 oz frozen chopped spinach
1/2 lb frozen crab meat
10 vitamins (Kent Zoe Freshwater Vitamins)
10 oz earthworm flake food

Mix eggs, carrots, spinach, peas in a bowl and microwave for 2-3 minutes. Finely chop shrimp, crabmeat and fish fillets in a pot of boiling water and cook for 2 minutes. PLace all in a blender and add vitamin tablets, flake food and peeled banana. (If contents become too pasty, add a small amount of water. If too watery, add more flakes.) Press into zipper bags and flatten to 1/4th thickness. Place in freezer.

2nd batch: *:bounce2:

2 lb beef heart (remove fat/gristle)
3/4 shrimp (remove tail and shell)
3 tbl freeze dried krill
1 raw egg yolk
1 small Gerbie baby veggies
1/2 cup spirulina flake
1/4 cup wheat germ
1 tbl garlic powder
1 1/4 oz Knox gelatin
10 vitamins (Kent Zoe Freshwater Vitamins)

Double grind beef heart. Add and grind shrimp. Grind krill to powder in another bowl. Mix the knox gelatin in another bowl and follow directions on box. Now mix everything together. Press into zipper bags and flatten to 1/4th thickness. Place in freezer.

Well, there you go! Good luck... hope your discus grow grow grow!!! (I know... I spoil my fish!!!! but I just love *:heart2: them!!!!! After reading the forum, I soon will add California black worms.

bobbdd

06-04-2002, 07:14 PM

How do you order this part of your diet??

frozen Jack Wattley Community
Frozen Jack Wattley Discus Formula

and what is it?

06-06-2002, 07:06 PM

I get it from the local fish store... one that only specializes in fish. The Wattley community food has zooplankton, shrimp, krill, red tuna, garlic, insect larvae, clam, muscel, spinach, banana, natural green algae, gelatin, wheat germ, fish oil, canthaxathin, ascorbic acid, beta carotene, biotin, hydroxocobalamin (vitamin B12), niacin, riboflavin, thiamine-HCL, numerous amino acids and trace minerals. (calcium, zinc sulfate, etc, etc.)

The Jack Wattley discus food has beef heart, krill, shrimp, clam, beef liver, spinach, wheat germ and spirulina. With various vitamins, amino acids and trace minerals.

I would ask your local fish store to purchase it for you or look it up on the internet. I guess I'm lucky to have a store near by.... I have never ordered any food from mail.

JacKWattleyDiscus

06-06-2002, 08:13 PM

My personal experience in layman's terms.
Back in 92' when I set up my first hatchery, in order to keep the water bill down, I experimented with the waste from the R/O filter.
Mind you water in Miami Beach comes out of the tap at 275 ms and 7.8 PH.
Wattley had always told me that many Discus breeders in Germany also raised Africans to take advantage of the waste from their R/O systems.
He tried to discouraged me from attempting the experiment and failed.  ;) As luck would have it I had about 400 Snakeskin's at quarter size to play with.
Without letting him know, I isolated 200 in one system on waste R/O water treated with acid, the rest on regular city water.
The end result was that when Jack came by 3 weeks later the 200 in the waste R/O were all 30% to 40% larger then the ones on straight tap. (In 3 weeks there was a noticeable difference.) Jack actually accused me of buying the larger ones ;D He did not believe that they were from the same spawn and that they were fish he had seen 3 weeks prior.
Feedings and cleaning were all the same with the exception of the 275 ms city water and the 500 ms waste R/O water. Through little experiments on my own is how Jack and I forged our partnership. The idea that 4 eyes see better then two is an understatement. Sometimes a fresh idea is the obvious solution to an unsolvable problem.
This is why this forum is so very important and useful to each and everyone of us.

At the hatchery we run straight well and have actually gotten measurements out of some of the grow out systems to be between 500 to as high as 900 ms.
I lost an old copy of Diskus Brief, where they interviewed
a breeder who kept his breeders at 80-120 ms and as soon as the eggs went from egg to fry stage, they would raise the conductivity to 1200 ms. I wish I had kept the article. The idea of 1200 is a little too high, but
I can see where other breeders, be it by testing , or just plain hard headedness like me have achieved and seen results with harder water.
Regarding the fish that come from the wild, here in Miami
since we are the import capital of South America, on my few moments of rest, I have visited many importers bringing in all types of fish. In the original packing water on a shipment of Heckles I got 3.25 PH and 22 ms.
(My extent to a South American expedition  8) )
But, I have yet to this day to see a wild fish straight out of the Amazon, who's eyes are proportional to the body growth we the hobbyists get. Don't get me wrong I too have see the 9-10" Heckles with the dime size eyes. :o
I hope that this tid bit of personal info, sheds some light
on the subject at hand.
Gabe

brewmaster15

06-07-2002, 06:06 AM

Hi Gabe!
 Thansk for sharing that information. It is is definetly in line with the observations  of many in the hobby/business.

 The growth  of native fish may be slower if the water is so soft, than in our tansk, and maybe that canm be countered  by diet.I know for a fact  Vitamen fortified Beef heart is a little scarce  in amazon  food chain.   Most vitamens and nutrients are not  not stored in living things ,so excesses are excreted away in waste.  I am sure that  you fed both groups the same , which means we can rule out dietary issues, especially  with thye nutritious  food you feed the fish.
  Its a stretch biologically, but it may very well be that discus in soft water utilize  things like calcium   to be able to survive in that soft water.   Soft water is prone to acidification . Something  has to buffer  the fishes internal system,  as physiological  pH for many vertebrates is  in the 7-8 range.  Calcium and phosphates  are great  buffers. If these nutrients were used to maintain a balenced pH in the physiological  range, less would be availible  for bone  growth. Discus in hard water  would  not have this loss of minerals to deal with and could grow better.
  also  the gill surface is a place where  much ion exchange goes  on.  In soft water I belive the gradient would cause a  net loss  to the relatively poor water around the gills. this may also  affect  the growth.
   The above is testable by feeding a  food with  more calcium and  phosphate  content to the fry in soft water.  A control group with the normal  food in soft water  should be used, and a another test group in hard water with normal food.
   Its an interesting phenomenone to say the least.

Thanks  for all the comments..
 -al

Gabe  what was the  pH of the RO water the fish were in?

 

JacKWattleyDiscus

06-07-2002, 07:27 AM

Al
If memory serves me they were around 6.6 PH back  then.
You know this has nothing to do with the hardness experiment but relative to it. One thing I found is that small discus grow extremely fast if fed oyster shell calcium tablets. (remove the protective coating)
This to was an accident it was not planned. I dropped a tablet in a small discus tank while on the phone. I figured once I finished the conversation I would just scoop it and throw it away. When I returned the pill was gone. (15 minute conversation)
The next day chalk like poop droppings everywhere.
I continued to feed them one tablet per day. I got the highest fin turquoise I have ever seen.
You know it's amazing the things this forum is making me remember. I will have to start doing this once again.
Gabe

brewmaster15

06-07-2002, 08:57 AM

Hi Gabe,
 thats whats great about these kinds of discussions. I/m not surprised by the calcium suppliment. I  started adding these   to one of my beef heart mix  last year when I was trying to cure  a young fish with hole in the head.  The fish grew very quickly (partial success on the hole in the head). Since  then I add calcium citrate (for osteo in elderly) as a regular part of my beef heart.  My thinking is that in the wild they may eat smaller fish and other vertebrates (high in calcium, but in our tank diets it may not be optimum) The problem is the concentration I think you can over do it and I don't know what the optimum  for a discus is..
...Trial and error I guess!
Thanks,
al

daninthesand

06-07-2002, 09:43 AM

This is the kind of dialogue I love to hear. MORE MORE MORE. I guess it is the scientist in me that finds all this stuff fascinating. Makes me wish I was into discus when I did my science degree. I might have gone into further studies and moved to brazil to continue on to a PhD in discus!

Great information everyone!

I predict this forum becoming THE discus forum on the net. So coooool!

Dan

gump

06-07-2002, 10:13 AM

LMAO Dan... Way to get out on that limb... This IS THE discus forum on the net already!!!
Pierre

06-07-2002, 10:36 AM

I too have used oyster shell tablets in my mixes. I never dropped them straight into the tank, though. When the tablets are gone, I was going to switch to calcium citrate. I read an article where it stated humans assimilate Ca citrate better than oyster shell tabs, so I figured it would be better for the discus as well.

Mat

brewmaster15

07-25-2003, 01:57 PM

This sites grown a bit since this posts last entry. I thought I would bring it back to the top.

-al

Wolf

07-25-2003, 07:42 PM

This isn't scientific but I sure noticed a big difference in my 11 week old fry when I went from Texas water very soft GH 5 KH 2 to CO water which is gh 15 kh 9. Within a week of being here, they really took off in growth and color . Of course, it could have just been the exact time they decided to have a grwoth spurt but it sure seems like it makes a difference. When I was raising my spawns in Texas, I noticed they didn't seem to grow near as fast as some other members fish like Carol's. It's hard to compete with Carol's growth anyway but I think it had something to do with the water.

Steve_Warner

07-27-2003, 12:00 AM

Hi all,
Well, I thought since I couldn't make it to the ACA, I would go to my university library and pickup some more research materials for the weekend. I found an interesting tidbit in a book called "Key Environments-Amazonia". It is in the section entitled "The Physical and Chemical Properties of Amazonian Waters" under the sub-heading "Aquatic Plants and Animals". It talks about the two different species of Symphysodon that inhabit two different waters, Symphysodon Aequifasciatus(Whitewater-ion rich) and Symphysodon Discus(Clearwater-ion poor). It says that " According to Geisler and Schneider(1976), the difference in Calcium Content in the water is reflected in the chemical composition of the skeleton of both species. In comparison to Symphysodon Aequifasciatus, S. Discus had a smaller percentage of Calcium in it's skeleton and a higher amount of Magnesium and Barium." Very ineteresting info pertaining to this thread. I have also found some other VERY INTERESTING stuff in other Amazon abstracts, including the mention of "high percentages of trace minerals such as Iron, Manganese, Copper, Zinc and Aluminium in the ion-poor waters." I've also been reading a little on the migration patterns of some Characins in the Rio Madera and it is some very interesting info about how they migrate from the ion-poor waters to the ion-rich(carbonate) waters to spawn/raise young! Maybe a clue! Hmmmmm................... Off to go read some more.

Steve

lesley

07-27-2003, 02:20 AM

Hi Steve,

that is very interesting , please keep us posted.

I can't find the link now, (was going to go back and thank the author of the post) but somewhere in these posts is a link to articles by a marineland "expert" which finally helped me understand kH and pH.

When you guys come tell us of some of these articles it helps us all enormously.

07-27-2003, 07:18 AM

I've done some work on Calcium with additional amino acid for the past 2 years. A body builder's diet for several broods of discus fry. I can't be anymore satisfy with the result. The fry all grown high fins and high body. Massive thick body with amazng growth. I have posted pictures in severl forums. Unfortunately no body seems to pick up the value of that special diet. Some posters even suggested they were culls with the odd shape and no way they would be in their tank. Only the foreign discus collectors are interested in the shape and size of those discus without asking a single question about the diet they were in. I will keep adding extra calcium and amino acid in my beefheart recipe. I was able to get the BD start laying eggs at 8 months at 6" and recently had a successful spawn in 9 month of age. Samll hatch but the number of eggs were amazing. over 500 eggs in one single spawn. You can check the result on Page 2 of my recent posted pic. on home bred fish.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=11372
Jimmy.

07-27-2003, 07:25 AM

Another example of the Calcium and Amino Acid diet.
Jimmy

07-27-2003, 07:27 AM

I can show you 40 of them with 5 different breed all end up with the same result. I'm planing to feed the F2 without the body building diet and see if I can reverse their shape into an ordinary discus without the shape of their Hi fin Hi body parents just to proof the shape didn't come from the genes. They were altered with special high calcium diet.
Jimmy.

Chaz

07-27-2003, 08:34 AM

Jimmy,

What kind of calcium and amino supplementation do you add to your recipe? Would you mind sharing this recipe. Personnaly, I think your fish look awesome.

Thanks,
Chaz

korbi_doc

07-27-2003, 09:38 AM

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: Hey jimmy, I too am interested in a diet that can contribute to growth in these fish, as is probably everyone else!! Your fish are superb in growth & color. I am very disappointed that you no longer have those "bulldogs", awesome fish, would have loved to have some of them! Hope you continue to have wonderful results & great fish!!

If you do conduct a "test" on youngsters with this body building diet, I hope you have sev'l groups for "control" & test groups; that would make it more applicable.

Continued success, Dottie ;D ;D ;D

07-27-2003, 11:17 AM

Chaz: I was using Calcium Carbonate with Vitamin D added. a regular drug store med.1500mg each. 2 tablets per pound from 1-3" and 4 tablets per pound from 3"-5". I 'm quite positive that Ca contributed the Hi fin Hi body of my discus. The massive body may be caused by the added amino acid. That will be the topic for another thread. I'd like to discuss Ca only. Anyway, what the hack!! >:( >:(. it was 1000mg Amino acid per pound of BH mix. I've done higer dose of Amino acid alone with poor result. It had caused infertility for the male mainly because of the sex organ did not grow the same rate as the body that prevented the spawning tube from touching the eggs. I guess it's the draw back of body builder's demise and explain why most breeder prefer smaller male. Their little thingy are just the right size.
Dottie: I have the F2 bulldogs already. They look even better than the F1 parents. testing will continue and I'll post up-date on them.
Jimmy.

daninthesand

07-27-2003, 12:16 PM