Help Badly Needed!!!

[breed_beyond]

OK here's my problem I have 9 fish in a 55 gallon and there is gravel in there, temp 86. Water params haven't tested today. But anyway anything and everything is startiling my fish, from them rubbing against each other to standing by the tank. They seem to spazz out for lack of a better word zipping around the tank hitting the glass gravel, intake tube on my ac500, and they don't stop till the are either hurt or in the case of my red turq he doesn't stop till he is knocked out floating upside down or sideways. Each time i'm about ready to get the net out and call himm a goner but makes a recovery. No what I want to know is what could be cause this, a really bad case of flukes? They have been doing this for a couple of days now and last time I checked my water parems everything was in order. So today I did a 50% water change and added epsom salt. Any and all Ideas will be greatly appreiciated and very badly needed. Also what is a good dosage for adding salt I was told 1 tablespoon per gallon is that too much or the right amount...............Brian

Brian,

It sounds like a possible water problem to me. Check the parameters and report back. Why the addition of epson salts and why do you want to add salt now?

Mat

[Chaos]

I am having the same problem. I have 10 2.5" babies in my 36g BB QT tank. On this third week, two fish began to show this symtom, darting and bumping hard against the aquarium walls than swim horizontally as if they have lost body control on one side. The spasm lasts from 5 to 10 secs then they seem all well again. Its teeth grinding and heart wrenching to hear and watch them do this. I QT the two fish into my hospital tank. The other 8 babies are doing fine and are not showing any symtoms. The breeder suggested changing their diet to include food with Vitamin B for their nervous system and lowering the temperature from 90 to 86.

I initially thought it was the water condition, but it checked out OK with test kit (PH-6.8, 0-Amonia, 0-Nitrite). From reading the past threads, symtoms like this occured from too much water change (75%) without chlorine neutralizer.

My recommendation is to QT the fish showing the symtoms. It reduces the stress on the other fishes. Hope not all 9 fishes are sick.

Hope this helps and also seeking help.

The two sick ones are a Pigeon Blood and a Marboro Red.

This is a great forum.

Thanks.

[brewmaster15]

I'm thinking along the lines of Mat. Check your water parameters, and especially check your NITRATE levels. After that do some large water changes and see if it help.

Next best guess is external protozoan. Not Flukes.


Hope this helps,
al

[breed_beyond]

I wanted to add salt, because I was told that it helps there slime coat, and since there rinning into things a great deal I thought the extra slime coat would be beneficial....And I soon as every one in the house wakes up i'll do my water tests and report back...If the tests are Normal and not fluckes but a external protozoan what do I treat that with?

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Brian:

NOT ONE TABLESPOON EPSOM SALT per GALLON!!!!!

It's one or two tablespoons REGULAR SALT per TEN Gallons.

YES, I AM SHOUTING.

If that's not a typo do a water change immediately. Epsom salt is for constipation not slime coat and I use it at one TEAspoon per TEN gallons.
Carol :heart1:

Mr Breedbeyond' + Chaos'
Am with the rest! What is the size of theses 9 discus in your
55 Gal Tank Breed?


Clean Out all your Filters glass Etc.. ASAP
(HIGH BIOLOAD) leads to all Above!

Lots of W/c every day! Sometimes 2 at First!
Its best to remove all Discus From this Tank To a New clean Tank! if possible. with high heat 88F and mild salt.

HEY Brew Whats Your Parmeters? :o Mine are 0 0 0. :-\
Come on this cannot Be people!

USE NEUTRALIZERS For chlorine + chlormine. If doing large w/c s especially If your doing 20% every other day and then 1 day you decide to do a large 50%
this will not work unless your Larry matt :P and have sweet tasty water in Your reach. Now Am not saying that a 50% w/c cannot be done. Am Only saying if your doing 20% w/c daily and you want to move up to 50% w/c You need to do this solwly.

TRAIN Your discus to your water!
MON,20% Tues 30% wed,40% thurs 50%


Are we sure that the water we are useing for are discus doe's not need to be aged over night ? (24hrs)


Just some Thoughts!
TakeCare'
Cary Gld!

Yes, doesn't everybody wish they had this glacial runoff water we have here :P ;D ;)

If your water parameters are fine, I'd be treating with salt and malachite green for possible protozoa problems. Formalin or formalin/malachite green combination can also be used for protozoas.

Mat

[breed_beyond]

OK,
checked my water parems today and ph is 5-5.5, Ammoina 0, nitrites o, and nitrates are at there normal 12.5 mg/l. the fish are 1.5 inch to 3 inches. Also I do water changes every other day at 50%. there have been no change in my routine except the salt, which I added after the symtoms occured. Up until then they were all fine. So I need to do an immediate w/c? To clear up the overdose of salt? I don't know if I can do one immediatly because of some work I need to get done but if the salt is serious and a w/c change needs to be done asap please call me at 503-667-3834.....gotta get back to work.....Brian ps Cary what was that Breedbeyond + chaos? What's that mean?

I'll Call You!
Cary Gld!
P.S

I was only talking to you and chao,s saying I agreedwith the other posters

[Chaos]

Sorry, if my post may have confused the problems Brian is having. Two of my QT discus have similar symtoms. I will listen carefully to this thread and follow the good advise being posted. Should I update the status of my discus in this thread or should I start a new one?

Thanks.

John C.

[breed_beyond]

Chaos,
might as well post here as we are having similer problems, now for my next question of the night. As I have used malachite green before I know that it works but since my qt tank at the moment( till I set up another one) is only 10 gallons, I can't put all 9 in there, that and there is one in that tank now as we speak being qt'd. Now on to the question is there a product like malachite green that will not stain my silicon blue? Should I just use, or I should say can I use formalin alone and will it be as effective as the mix of the two, and why do they have to make meds that stain things lol.........Brian

[Chaos]

How about Hex-A-Mit (colorless) and works against protozoans? Huh, description said it can be used to treat "Unexplained Fish Death".

Is it too strong for babies that are about 2" in size?

John C.

[Carol_Roberts]

HI Chaos:
Through the years I've read of symptoms similiar to yours(fish darting, losing balance, only one or two affected) . I don't know that we've ever figured out the problem. Reread the posts by Cary Strong and Larry Mattincheck. Both have offered solutions that might help. I don't think Hex-a-Mit (metronidazole) would be of help at this time.
Carol :heart1:

[Chaos]

Carol, thanks for the info. I looked through the past posts again and like you said there were no exact solution to this problem. The following are my latest status:

Water source/conditioning - 50% filtered through a drinking water canister filter mixed with 50% tap. The mix is aged for at least 24 hrs.

Discus
1. The 8 original babies (three weeks now since I received them) are doing very well, eating well on diets of frozen bloodworm (started this week), Hakira bloodworms (started this week), beefheart mix, and flakes. They are in a 36g QT tank. Water condition (PH-6.8, Amonia-0, Nitrite-0, temp-86deg)

2. The PB died today. It must of knocked itself out while I was away. Sad, but also felt relief that it is no longer suffering.

3. The MR symtoms are like the PB. I don't think he will pull through. The only thing that is keeping him from killing himself earlier is the aquarium cover.

4. The PB and MR was being treated in my 10g BB Hospital Tank. I seperated them as soon as I notice the symtoms a week ago.

Treatment (hospital tank):
1. 50% water change daily for the Hospital tank
2. 2tsp/10 gal salt

I have two other 46gal tanks with six 4" - 5" discus in each using the same water treatment above. Discus in these tanks are doing well, had them for 7 months. I am not new to discus. I kept discus about 22 years ago as a young hobbyist, and is amazed how far it has come.

Don't know if it's a disease that could have transmitted to the others if I leave them in the original QT tank) or is it the stress (different environment, water conditions, etc. than the breeders). Wish I had a runt to test (may sound cruel but can help narrow down the problem.

Just don't know what to do when your fish is doing fine one moment, eating well, and the next minute they go crazy. I am sure they were fine at the breeder (very reputable).

My guess is that the combination of stress from shipping and changes in environment and water conditions could have cause some illness that affected their nervouse system. Just my guess, I am no expert and don't have the years of experience shown here by many at this forum.

I am considering a sacrifice by introducing another discus from my QT tank into the hospital tank. Has anyone done this before?

John

[breed_beyond]

Well I have had a death in the family, found that 2 of the fish were the ones tripping out and that they were spooked the rest, and one if them died and the other is in qt so let's see how things go. And a very extra special thanks to Cary for taking the time out of his busy scedule to call me and help out........Brian

[breed_beyond]

Well I had another death last night, one of my wild greens, and today looks like i'm gonna lose another one, my heckel x alenquer cross. This is my fist try at discus and might be my last if they keep dying on me, my water parems are fine, just keep losing them even with higher temp salt and formalin/malachite green combo treatment, not sure what's going on but it's frustrating me. I have never had this problem when raising african cichlids. I feel like i'm lost.......Brian

[Pick]

Don't give up yet Brian, there is a lot of experience and knowledge available. (sorry I don't have very much :P )

Keep posting with as much info as possible, I'm sure someone will come through for you.

TC

[OEG]

Hi BB,
Dont give up buddy ive been in your shoes and have just wanted to call it quites even throw the skiddish bastards in the yard and forget about them. I found that when i have had this type of problem its due to sickness or just as mentioned one or two scaring the rest. I have moved non skiddish fish in with the darters and found that when the confident fish came up to the glass all the other followed. This is one idea but if there is something wrong with water like infection that could get more of them sick. Is the sides of your tank painted or just glass? I think that its a domino effect if one darts all the others follow, so try and get a confident one or two in there that will come up to the glass and ask for food and the rest will follow. I kinow that this sounds weird but thats what has worked for me. Dont give up though it all gets better. i know ive been ready to give it all up when all my fish got sick and looked like crap, even my fish room smelled like death, now they are all better and growing. We are all here to help each other and will do so as long as we can.
Oscar

[Chaos]

Brian, are they showing the same symptoms. Darting and crashing into the tank walls?

Are they dark with slime, bloated or not eating? Do they have clamp fins? Are they breathing heavily?

Their body language can tell you a lot.

I have learned my lesson to isolate sick fish from healthy fish even if they are in QT tank. I also suffered the loss of my MR early this week. The two discus that displayed the same unusual but deadly symptoms. My other 8 discus in the QT tank are doing well eating, and growing.

We all suffered some setbacks in the past and learned from our mistakes. I just don't know how to explain what contributed to the current deaths. I tried to start a thread to collect more information but like Carol said, their are not many answers at this point.

We can be doing everything right, but the discus can still be stressed.

My suspicion to your problem may in your water condition. Discus are more sensitive to the water conditions than most other fish.


JC

[RichieE]

Just a thought here. Check for any equipment that might be giving off electrical current into the water. The heater would be the first place I would look. Check for even a small crack. If its a glass heater is there moisture inside the tube? If there is moisture getting in there is a good chance current can get out. If its submersable how oid is it? The rubber can dry out over time and might cause the same condition as above. My guess would be that the salt you added would intensify any shock they might be getting. Rich

[breed_beyond]

I think i'm calling it quits for now, they all have had the same behaviour in differant qt tanks, with no real results, so i'm sure it's not a grounding problem and the heater is a marinland visitherm that is about 4-5 monthes old. None of the other fish in the tank have ever been affected, I have cory cats and cardnal tetra's, and rummy nose in there. I lost another 5 last night leavimg me with only 2 discus left. And one of the fish that died last night was one of my favorites a pigeon blood mixed with a snake skin, and another of my favs a wild green mix. So i'm out of idea's patience, MONEY, and i've never been hot like this with any of the other fish I have ever kept.....Brian

Brian,
Sorry for the being late on this post. To dang bad what happened. Hopefully you will start again in the near future.
Best of Luck
Miles

[breed_beyond]

Ok I want some input here on my situation, I had 8 out of 10 fish die as you all know. Now I have 2 left a red turq, and a blue turq. I did my normal w/c change today and decided to test my ph( which I rarely do since for the last 2 years it has always been stable at 5.5). I tested before water change and I was kinda going ***, my ph was 7.5, so I did a 45% w/c and tested again, 7.0...I had to do some other things and wasn't able to test ph outta tap for a couple of hours. Still thing ok *** is going on with my tank, so I get a chance to test my tap and it is 7.5.....It's never been that high so my ph fluctuations over the time my fish were dieing, were what I hope was the problem. Any and all thoughts on my problem are greatly apprieciated.........Thanks..........Brian

[DHDiscusMan]

I'm not sure but I think some community water districts intentionally get the water to PH 7+ because it's not as hard on the cities pipes.

My PH is about 7.4 out of the pipe.

Discus can be fine at 7.4+ as long as it's consistant.

Try to find out if after 8 hours in the tank with filters and airstone the PH is changing... after 24...

If it is you may want to get a storage barrell which you heat and airate before the water change so there is less swing when the water is with the discus.

I'm not an expert but I've seen discussions about this on the water quality board.

Good luck, and sorry for your losses.

Dan

[breed_beyond]

Yeah I know water changes with aeration, but what i'm trying to say is that my water outta the tap for the last 2 years has been 5.5, then it has stayed stable at 5.5 in the tank....Now outta the tap it's 7.5 and in the tank after a day it's 7.0 to 7.5, and the change happened right around the time that my discus were getting sick so I think it was the drastic change in the ph that caused there irratic behavier, eventually causing them to die because of ph shock. Now what i'm looking for are the experts to determine if the symtoms could be ph related......Brian

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Brian:

If your discus were 7.0 pH in the tank and you added 7.5 pH change water it would not have bothered them. (Even with a 50% WC it would have only raised to 7.25)

The other way around would have been stressful, but would not have killed them outright.

I wonder what else they may have done to the water in your area?

CArol :heart1:

[jim_shedden]

Brian : I would recommend that you contact your public utilities commisson and ask them for a print-out of the water breakdown at about 1 week before your problems started and for a current breakdown. You may see a difference and you may even see that chlorimines may have been added. Just a thought.

Jim

[breed_beyond]

I know that they add chloramines already so i've been treating for that for years, but the ph jump hasn't happened over the last 2 years only suddenly over the last 2 weeks..And carol, my ph jump was very suddenly they were at 5.5 then at 7.5, so I ph it was the sudden rise in ph that took a toll my poor fish. Gonna try to call the water company today for the 10th time, I always get a run around like, he's on vacation, or he's out to lunch, I've left messages but with no response, I might have to pay there office a visit since it's just 3 miles away from me...Brian

[harry]

just a line on above probs ,ive 6 x2and half inch bd in tank ,had 2 weeks now feeding well and growing all water tests ok ,then this morning 2 going mad crashing against tank checked water and found ph 6 ,amonia 0 ,nitrite about 15ppm,did large water change ,still high nitrite ,went and got nitrazorb and put in fillter ,after 3 hours nitrite down to about 1 ppm fish eating again and seem happy will keep updateing ::)

[boxlotfish]

Hi: I just wanted to remind you that this time of the year the water in the lines gets cold and gases are locked in with cold. Nitrites frequently pop up this time of the year also. I have seen the problems of dashing discus over the years and it is usually limited to wild fish. I think it is a problem of gas in the blood or something like the bends when divers come up to fast. Carbon filtering will remove gases from water so you might try that. Usually a good water change will help but not always. Heat might help also. This is another reason I am working with humic acid to try to resolve these natural but unexplained deadly problems. Loren