Planted tank vs Barebottom

[no1joey]

ok ive heard alot of good and bad points about planted and barebottoms ,can someone advise me on which is best ?? and why??

It depends. If I had a single tank with adult Discus I'd try to keep a planted tank going. They're beautiful when done right. The adults wouldn't need so much food since growth is less of an issue and therefore the tank wouldn't be a mess. Since I only had the one tank the additional work req'd would be tolerable. Of course I couldn't get away with just one tank, I'd need another for hospital or quarantine but I'd leave that empty.

For growing out small Discus bare tanks must be the best. There can be no argument. I'm not saying it can't be done in a planted tank, just that bare is the best. That's based on my objectives of growing large healthy Discus quickly. In a bare tank I can feed them 6-8x a day, change lots of water and keep the glass clean. I don't have to worry about the effects of any decision I make other then how it will affect the fish. So I can jack the heat & salt the tank if I deem it necessary. I can medicate the entire tank or catch an ill fish without concern of wrecking the plants/decorations in the tank.

Dave

[Ralph]

The "best" tank would depend on what kind of a discus keeper that you are. Each group has their own set of values on which to base what is best.
Professional breeders all go BB tank, easier to clean, more stable water conditions, cheap and efficient sponge filters (or they use a large filtration system), and less sources of bad bacteria. They want it safe and easy.
Hobbyists tend to like the look of a planted tank. What they have is never a discus biotope but their tanks have a "natural" look. They, and this includes me, like watching their discus swimming among the plants and driftwood. It is much more work and a higher risk of problems, but it is worth it for them because of the enjoyment the planted tank brings them.
There is also a group of hobbyists who take pride in raising their discus in a professional way, they want the biggest most colorful fish, and often do small scale breeding. They go with the BB tanks too (and probably do water conductivity tests daily). They want to do it "right."
I know there are exceptions to the above groups but in general, most discus keepers fall into one of these. There is no right or wrong to this and people have found success raising discus all three ways, it all depends on their values (you can see why there are occasionally some disagreements). The "best" tank is what is best for you.

[Don_Lee]

Dave C. sums it all up!

Don

[discuslover87]

What more work does a planted tank entail than a BB tank?

[no1joey]

Um providng nutrients for the plants i think,also having the light on for a period of time also has to be done....

That brings up another question, ive been reading alot on plated tanks , they seem to have alot of benefits for the fish ,i.e removing bad stuff in the water ( sorry to lazy to look up what they actually remove ) , so a BB tank would need what to replace this ? ? an airstone perhaps ? ?
thanks...

[Don_Lee]

A planted tank takes attention being paid to the needs of the plants and the discus. Case in point, CO2 is just a liablility for fish, while is a nutrient for plants. When adding CO2 to the discus tank, pH can crash rapidly due to the typically soft water found in the discus tank. Also-discus juveniles need to be fed like piggies, and feeding this way leads to the need for cleanup of excess food and waste. Planted tanks are more difficult to do this in. Planted tanks also harbor more places for disease/bacteria to grow. Having said all of that, I keep a planted tank with juveniles! I am not sure I would do it over again the same way, but I do feel the plants are a definite benefit for adults, IF one wants to spend the time to clean them up etc.....If max. fish is the goal, or breeding, time runs out at some point.

JMO,

Don ;D

[Ralph]

I want to provide a summation of sorts on this issue as it stands today. Aspects of this have been popping up all over and it might clarify things if it can be put in one place. This is mainly for people thinking of switching or starting up either one. This is going to be a long post (I am going for the record), so if you have already decided, don't bother reading this. (I'm stuck in the house today (my child's sore throat) so it's either this or read For Whom the Bell Tolls.)
I went through some previous threads and came up with the criticisms of planted tanks (I really didn't want to read Hemingway today). I then provide my view on the subject, hopefully in an unbiased way. It has somehow become an emotional issue on the board, this is an attempt at a rational look at the situation.
In no particular order:

Planted tanks are complicated.
Absolutely! There are probably four times the number of interactions (chemical and biological) in a planted tank compared to a Bare Bottom. If you are just starting out in fish keeping, go BB. In fact, if you are just starting out, I wouldn't recommend starting with discus. The general consensus is, if you can keep cardinal tetras alive for three months, then you might be ready for discus.

Food gets caught in the gravel and causes health problems.
Extra care is needed to prevent this in planted tanks. I use food that doesn't hit the bottom, blackworms, floating foods, frozen bloodworms, etc. in smaller portions served more often. I also have cories in my tank, they work like a cleanup crew to keep food from getting caught in the gravel.

Professional breeders don't use planted tanks.
Of course not. They are in business and and they are looking at cost efficiency. And who would want 40 planted tanks? But I have heard that they often have planted show tanks in their living rooms.

BB tanks are easier.
Anyone who has had a planted tank would agree with this. But in general, discus are not considered "easy." This one is a personal call as to how much effort you want to put into your hobby.

Bacteria grow in the gravel.
Probably the most common criticism, but I feel an unfair one. Unless you keep your discus in Clorox Bleach, your entire tank is covered in bacteria. It's on every surface, including the scales of your fish. It's in the water. In fact, we go to great lengths to establish and maintain massive breeding colonies of bacteria (they're called filters). And these are not just good bacteria.
But you do want to keep solid wastes in the gravel to a minimum though. Keep gravel depths shallow and vacuum, vacuum, vacuum. You are not going to get "it" all but you definately want to avoid any anaerobic activity.

My fish do great in a BB tank.
That's great but it doesn't disprove the possibility of having healthy fish in a planted tank.

My fish got sick in a planted tank.
This is imposssible to rebut, I can't guarantee that fish in a planted tank will not get sick. But discus in BB tanks get sick, just read through some of the threads in the medication area. A study would need to be done to really establish any conclusions to this. There seems to be a tendency though to blame all fish problems in a planted tank on the plants (or gravel). Put "planted discus tank" in a search engine and you find people that have had success with planted tanks. In fact, Al and Ryan apparently felt that it was at least an option when they set up a "Planted Tank Section" on the board.

The needs of plants and fish conflict with each other.
1) Light
Plants can be raised without exotic lighting systems that might have adverse affects on discus. And who keeps their fish in the dark?
2 O2/CO2
Fish use O2 produced by the plants and plants use CO2 produced by the fish, it's a win/win. I would be careful when injecting CO2 into a tank though (plants can be raised without extra CO2), I think it's been established that high CO2 levels have adverse affects on fish. And you want to minimize surface agitation that will strip CO2 out of the water, especially during the day.
3) Plant fertilizers
This gets complicated but in general, both fish and plants need minerals to some extent. Fish don't need as many from the water as they get theirs in their food. I tend not to use liquid plant fertilizers and rely on the substrate to provide these for the plants (through root absortion). I haven't read or heard anything though about plant fertilizers, used correctly, killing fish. In fact, trace mineral mixtures for discus are very similar to trace mineral additives for plants.
4) WCs
Major WCs might have a minor negative affect on plants but I doubt that it would be enough to even notice. If tap water is at least part of the replacement water, it could even help plants with the added minerals in tap water.

Juv discus are runted in planted tanks.
Probably the hot button issue in this subject. I don't think that this has been settled either way. People have raised discus successfully in planted tanks and people have had problems with juvs in planted tanks (though no one seems to know exactly why). In general, animal young are more susceptible to environmental stress. Unless you are very adventurous, I would probably (though in reality I didn't) go with a BB tank for the first eight months or a year and then move to a planted tank.

Plants don't remove all toxins.
Nor were they meant to. Plants remove portions of the following from the water: CO2, ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, minerals, and some toxins. But you still have to do water changes.

You can't use medications in a planted tank.
In general true. I would have a quarantine tank available to dose your fish. You avoid killing your plants and you don't have to deal with removing the meds from the tank.

Wow....is anyone still reading at this point? Maybe I should have found out for whom the bell tolls, I've got a good guess though.

I have definately established that planted tanks are extra work and require additional knowledge, but I think it is a possibility to have healthy fish and plants in the same tank. You may have to sacrifice a little in plant growth, the fish come first. But there are some real rewards to creating your own little piece of the Amazon and to me, it is worth the extra effort.
This was not meant as an invitaion for Round 6, but if you see any glaring omissions or misstatements, feel free to post your comments. You can email me if you want. And I'm not trying to talk anyone out of having a BB tank. I was just wondering if it is possible to put a few plants in my fish tank.

[Ralph]

Going through the threads I did find several suggestions that would fall under the category of Happy Mediums.

Floating plants - They provide shady areas for the discus and remove nitrates, etc. from the water without using gravel which may harbor microbes. And you won't need any CO2 injection. Some of the smaller ones, like Duckweed, can be messy during vacuuming. The ones with longer roots, water sprite and frogbit, give the tank an interesting look, pondlike.

Philodendrons - Some people place potted philodendrons (or pothos) near their tanks and then place the stems near the water surface. The roots grow down into the tank and remove nitrates, etc. from the water, again without the need of gravel in the tank. Aesthetically, probably an acquired taste but in reality, closer to an actual discus biotope than a planted tank.

Potted plants - People put aquatic plants in ceramic pots with gravel as a potting medium. It provides most of the benefits of planted tanks while minimizing problems associated with the gravel. The pots can be removed from the tank regularly for a complete cleaning. If you squint your eyes real tight, you are in the Amazon. There is room for creativity in your choice of pots too.

I wish I'd have gotten the names of the people that suggested these options.

I did think of another one: plants attached to driftwood and then put in the tank, it's a variation on the potted plants. Java moss, Java fern, riccia, etc.

[THEDISCUSGUY]

hey all :D
i rather the planted tanks then the bb because the discus look better live better in there natural envorment, but its much harder to keep the tanks water condition perfict and natural. heres what i do

for my best breeders and fish they breed and live in a small planted tank with a bit of natural drift wood to breed on and for my other breeders they stay in a bb tank

i just rather see them breedin in the most natural form and setting...

[Ralph]

I've read of two people on the forum that have successfully bred in a planted tank, I think it was Jeff in Oregon that posted some amazing pictures of the brood swimming among the leaves.

[tyrancooper]

Does anyone have personal experience or know of any documented studies comparing the success rates of mated pairs in planted vs. bare bottom tanks?

For example:

Are discus more likely to mate in a bare tank than in a planted one?

Is there definitely a higher loss of fry in a planted tank than in a bare one (provided water maintenance, feeding, etc. remain equal)?

I'm curious, even though my discus are only juveniles right now. Ralph's dicussions have been very interesting, although now I am worried about my discus. They were 2 inches when I bought them. Are they doomed to be stunted in my planted tank?

tyrancooper

[Ralph]

Hi Tyra,
You've identified the problem, discus keeping is just so new that we are still searching for the "right way" to do it, and few studies have been done. Someone, last week, asked about the right temp to keep discus and they got about six different answers (and that would be an easy thing to test for).

The answers to your questions are just not known definately yet. Even something as basic as the right pH has changed recently, now it is generally accepted that even 8.0 is OK for discus. Before that, dire warnings were given about the certain death of discus at that pH.

Whether or not to raise discus with plants is up to you. If you want 10" discus with the least amount of work and risk, go BB. If you are willing to do the extras and won't be disappointed with 7" discus and you really like the look of a planted tank.....

Here is a website by someone who has bred and raised discus in planted tanks. They give an even view on the drawbacks and the benefits involved.

http://aquaticconcepts.thekrib.com/Articles/PAM_Discus.htm

You are doing the right thing though, asking questions and reading about it. Let us know what you decide.

[ChloroPhil]

Well, never being one who could keep an opinion to myself I'd like to interject.

Ralph,
Wow, that was long,.but thought provoking.

et al,
Having never kept discus personally, but having attended many while working at an LFS, and having experience with planted tank I can give a little experienced/anecdotal reference.

1. Discus spawn very readily in planted tanks. I think that there might actually be a higher percentage of fry that live in a planted aquarium vs. a bb simply because the parents seem less likely to eat eggs/fry. Since the parents have a place to run and hide they're less "spooky" in a planted tank. The fry are a bit hard to net for moving to a grow out tank, but it can be done.

2. Too much light scares the fish! While certainly true in a tank with no hiding places, higher lighting is not an issue with a well planted aquarium. Large stands of plants like Swords and Aponogeton provide shade and a hiding place for skittish discus. If a fish knows it has a place to run to they're much more likely to stay in the open and exhibit better coloring and behavior.

3. Plants harbor harmful bacteria and disease. I don't agree at all. My fish are never healthier than when kept in a planted tank. Healthy plants equals healthy fish.

4. Plants are more work. Yes and no. I consider vaccumming the bottom of a tank 1-6x/day to be a lot more work than replacing 50% of the water 1x a week. Yes, plants need to be trimmed every once in a while, but most don't need to be uprooted to do that, just take some scissors and cut.

5. Plants necessitate adding chemicals which are _potentially_ harmful to fish. Yes. Plants are a perfect biological filter. Well kept plants will use up Ammonia/Ammonium and Nitrate faster than the fish can make it. When one has to add suppliments to a system to keep NO3 and PO4 levels from hitting zero I would say that they're doing a heck of a job keeping the water clean. :) The plants also provide a perfect buffer against nutrient/pollutant spikes.

6. CO2 kills fish. Too much CO2 will kill any O2 breather. A properly balanced and maintained planted tank will *easily* produce more oxygen than the water can hold. CO2 has the added benefit of lowering pH and maintaining it at a consistant level very cheaply. If one is concerned about CO2 levels when the lights are out they make solenoid valves which will cut off the CO2 supply using a timer.

7. Gravel harbors harmful microbes. A small school of cories will make take care of any excess food that hits bottom and anything they miss is free plant food.

8. Plants are pretty.

Ok, enough from me. :)

[EthanCote.com]

Just to add another pointer to Biotypical's post, not only are plants pretty but they also provide a source of food to your fish.

I have some sag. in my tanks and on numerous occassions, I can see my Discus picks at the decaying tip of the leaf. They tend to love that. So I do not mind them eating the plants since the amount they eat does not hurt the plants.

Also on occassion when my fish was sick and refuse to eat, however, I did see him picks at some plant materials for his food source. I'm sure plants have some medicinal values as well, but as to the type of plants, that I do not know.

Just my two cents.


Cheers,

Chi.

[Ralph]

Hi Chi,
How are your fish doing, are they eating well now?

Phil,
I really like plants, aquatic and otherwise. I'm not sure that I would even have discus if it meant that I could only have them in bare tanks, like they were some museum piece. I don't have a problem if other people want to do it that way, but for me it just wasn't an option.
That being said, there are some drawbacks to planted tanks with discus. You have to sacrifice some plant growth and probably some discus growth (I don't care for the overplanted tanks anyways and it's not that important to me that I have 10" fish). And there can be some extra work.
Generally your observations fit in with what I have seen, with care, discus can make it in planted tanks.

[EthanCote.com]

Hey Ralph,

Thanks for asking :D

He is doing super great!! Too great I'm afraid (keep reading). He was the bully of the tank when I took him out to treat him. Three weeks has passed and I'm happy to announce that he has recovered successfully. No more intestinal worms or sign of them anyhow.

Unfortunately, when I placed him back into the tank, I am totally shock to see him start his bully ways again and much more aggressive this time. I have heard when you removed a fish due to bullying he will be more gentle when placed back into the tank, but this is not the case. He has start to terrorize the other 5 fishes again. Some of which are showing stress bars and turning dark. I even notice one of my fish has stopped eating this morning due to his constant bullying. He is driving me nut.

I guess I can try and divide him from the rest, but the looks of my tank won't be as nice. The best bet was to placed him into his own tank but I do not have any to spare at the moment. Sigh. Delimna.

Now to make matters worst, I think he has velvet disease. Is this common in Discus??? I suppose during all that medication I have been using on him, his slim coat seem to be non existence which leave him to parasitic attack. His body is covered by tiny tiny dots now.

I have to admin, I have never had this much problem with keeping fishes. Discus is sure challening, if its not one thing, its another. But wouldn't trade this for the world, perhaps for more tanks....

Aren't u glad you asked me how things went Ralph?? ;D


Cheers,

Chi.

PS: Just to bring this post back in topic ;D , my Discus has grown quite considerablely in my planted tank (they will continue to grow if I can find a way to deal with this bullying). I guess the downfall of a planted tank (and I could be wrong), is that it sets landmarks for their territory. Any comments on this??

[80gJoe]

Phil,
I really like plants, aquatic and otherwise. I'm not sure that I would even have discus if it meant that I could only have them in bare tanks, like they were some museum piece. I don't have a problem if other people want to do it that way, but for me it just wasn't an option.

Very well put.. I consider my tank to be a 'show tank.' I'm sure bare bottom tanks have thier place, such as breeding, out-grow...but, it's just not a natural look. I also believe the fish need that extra secure feeling of hiding if they want to do so.
I was on the 'chat' for a very short time when I brought up the subject of planted tanks. Had I known I'd get Slammed for chatting about it, I would not have mentioned it. Seems like some BB tank people are extremely closed-minded about live plants. My fish and plants are thriving! It just takes some maintenance time and good filtration. Makes me wonder how many consider a bare tank, a 'show' tank...?

[Don_Lee]

Hi Joe,

The bare bottomed versus planted debate will always be there, and we all will have our opinions. I was on chat last night when you got "slammed", and I am sorry that you felt that you were slammed. The truth of the matter is that it is hard to meet the needs of juvenile discus AND plants, and that it is difficult to have a tank ideal for plants and ideal for discus. It is a compromise. I say let's all do what we choose, and not be critical of others views. Do not judge chat or the board on the words/actions of one, and I would also advise being open to others opinions. It is great to have you here, your tank looks great and I am sure we could all learn from you.

Don ;D

[Ralph]

Hi 80gJoe,
I like your tank, is that Onyx substrate? It is that same color but it could be grey sand. Any other fish besides the neons (those are neons, aren't they)?
It is a puzzle to me why they are so emotional about the issue, it's not like we are trying to talk them into having plants. They have generally gotten better though, they actually used to come in this section just to criticize planted tanks.
You are more than welcome to post here though, we talk about all kinds of discus stuff, there are some very knowledgeable people here to offer advise and suggestions, and plant people don't argue.

[ChloroPhil]

80gJoe,

Your tank is lovely! I think you've struck just the right balance between the fish and plants. I'm reminded of a Koi pond with all the vertical plants and the different colors of the fish. Would you mind posting your tanks parameters?

How's the Onyx affecting your water chemistry? Just about everyone I've talked to has said it hardens the water and ups the pH. Have you experienced anything like this? That being said, it otherwise looks perfectly suited for Discus.

Thanks for showing us your baby,
Phil

Nice tank! I've been there and wish you all the luck with this tank. The true test of a planted Discus tank is how well the Discus are doing after a year or two, not a month or two. My tank looked great in the first 3-4 months. But it's a growing thing and the problems don't surface until the crap starts to overwhelm the system. In time the fish start to show the signs of being in a less then suitable environment. But that's just my experience, not a hard & fast "rule". Many of the opinions that you will hear regarding bb vs. planted come from experience, not just a bias to believe that what we are currently doing is the best way. I found that adolescent Discus in a planted tank was a really bad idea. And my adult Discus couldn't tolerate the planted environment. But in the end it was the accumulating waste that got to me and forced me to remove the substrate & plants. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. In the final stages of my planted tank this was what it looked like:

http://members.shaw.ca/dclubine/Dsc04513a.jpg

I thought it was a beautiful tank but a ticking time bomb. That was my opinion when I went to move a piece of driftwood, which was near impossible to remove due to the plant growth, and found clouds of crap, uneaten food etc. come flying out from under the wood. I cleaned the tank bottom daily, changed 10% water daily but in the end it was insufficient. I am not a big believer that rotting food & fecal matter is a good thing for the fish to live in long-term. It may be an ideal environment for the plants though. I decided that I was maintaining these tanks for the beauty of the Discus and anything that put that in jeopardy was contrary to my goals.

Now before you ask, yes I did try to keep the tank going without substrate. I removed it all, potted many of the plants and tried it with a bare bottom. This was better for the fish but hard to maintain in balance for the plants. In the end the algae was the victor and the nutrient uptake of the plants was limited by being potted. I could have tried to keep this setup going longer but I had tried potted plants in the past and found that I was just replacing plants as the old ones succumbed to less then ideal conditions.

http://members.shaw.ca/dclubine/Dsc04616a.jpg

Now I settle for this look. While it doesn't have the look of plants, substrate & fish it has something better, a healthy environment that I can maintain along with my other 12 tanks. The idea of a planted tank with adult Discus is like a holy grail, for me at least. It's certainly something to strive for. But I wouldn't assume that it has been achieved until it's running without health problems for a year at least. Good luck to you.

http://members.shaw.ca/dclubine/Dsc05066a.jpg

Dave

[Ralph]

Hi Dave,
Great post (and nice looking fish)! I think you brought up the main aspects of this issue (and it is unfortunate that it is an issue). Most of the people who get bit by the discus bug have in their mind somewhere an image of a large well-planted tank with a school of colorful discus gliding among the driftwood and plants and a shoal of cardinals trying to stay out of their way. Easier imagined than done. It does have that feeling of searching for the Holy Grail, I like your analogy. And that is exactly what we are trying to do here. We are operating under the assumption that a functioning discus show tank is a possibility, that healthy fish and healthy plants can coexist within the same space. And that is with the knowledge that there have been many failures in the past. We progress toward this by daily discussing these failures and successes that we all have had in our attempt to make a discus show tank a reality.
We are certainly not there yet. It is complicated because of all the interactions that go on in a show tank. We are trying to combine two fields of study that are still trying to establish themselves. Planted tanks have been around quite awhile, but they are still evolving. Discus keeping is relatively new and we are still in a trial and error phase as to how to best raise and breed healthy fish. It is easy to see that combining these two without sacrificing too much on either side is a difficult thing to do, but not necessarily impossible.
As far as this board goes, I feel that we should welcome all people that have an interest in keeping discus and that we will best serve those people that have that dream of finding the Holy Grail by providing a place to freely discuss their attempts and to give them the best advice and support that we can.

I agree. But all too often we are offered photos of planted Discus tanks that have just been set up and these form the basis of declaring a tank a success. Of course it can be done and done successfully. One only has to spend a bit of time on DPH to see examples of these successes. My goal is not to discourage someone from trying just to make them think in more realistic terms. If I had more time, knowledge, skill and simple perseverance I could have made my tank work. I found that I didn't value the ultimate goal enough to keep at it. While I love the look of a planted tank the actual care for the plants and substrate exceeded my desire to see the plants grow & thrive. And I much prefer a tank that is loaded with fish then one that is sparsely populated.

It's similar to the debate regarding water changes. We hear of people that have done weekly 10% water changes in a Discus tank for a month or two and that is offered as proof of the theory that water changes are unnecessary. Or we are shown planted Discus tanks that have been running for weeks. By all means show us your tanks, I love to see them. And while I won't post my warnings of doom & gloom I also won't declare the tank a resounding success. Water in our enclosed glass cubes deteriorates over time and Discus can tolerate less then optimal conditions for a period before visually suffering. Good luck to all, may your tanks meet your needs and your ability to maintain them in such a way that your Discus grow to become large, healthy specimens. That's the true sign of success.

Dave

[ChloroPhil]

Dave,

Thank you for sharing your tank and experiences with us. I've been dying to see how your tank looked right before you took it down, it was so beautiful. I did have a question though....I've always wondered why you chose to put such a fine grained sand over your flourite. I've had no end of trouble with planted tanks that have a very fine substrate. The combination was great for keeping mulm on the surface for easy vaccumming, but it also kept everything away from the roots of the plants.

When I've used larger grain substrates like Profile or Flourite my plants have done worlds better and have, in turn, kept the tank in better shape. I realize the dream of a planted discus tank as I've been dreaming of it too. I know it can be done, but shouldn't be attempted ith immature discus.

We could, and probably will, have this debate until the end of time. I think the answer is within all of us, and is different for everyone too. I don't consider success solely on the size of my fish and I'm not interested in having fish the size of dinner plates in my aquarium. If I were a Fish Keeper only I'd agree that bb tanks were the way to do things..but I'm not and fish are a close second to plants for me. I'd much rather have an aquarium that's home to robust and lively fish with equally robust and well growing plants. However, that's just my goal and when I achieve it I'll consider myself successful.

[Ralph]

I don't think anything has been "proven." Right now we seem to be at a place where with a lot of extra work, a degree in chemistry, a case of test kits, and more gadgets than James Bond, you might, after a year, have live fish and the upperhand on your algae.
I don't have a problem with reality checks, I tell people that they shouldn't start with discus at all if they don't have aquarium experience. In the future, I think will be able to provide an instruction book on how to build and maintain a discus show tank with definate, proven details on what is required. At this point at least, we can't do that even for BB tanks. And I am talking about even basics such as WCs (as you mentioned), optimum temperatures, correct pH, hardness limits, best foods, etc. None of those issues have been firmly established (proven) yet. We are still here trying though.

Biotypical,

The silica sand was a tradeoff in favor of the fish. It is easier to keep clean then gravel and with the rate of growth I got from the fish I'd say it did them no harm. I never had a problem with dying plants nor algae at the peak of my tank. The plants grew well, I was injecting CO2 and had plenty of light. There was a balance of sorts and the fish & plants seemed to be getting along quite well. Some problems became evident with time though... I was missing about 10 Otos, I'd put in 14 and could never account for more then 4. There was literally a jungle of Vals in the back corner and it's quite possible to lose 10 fish in there. So I was concerned that there was decomposing corpses of fish hidden within the tank. Then when I realized that the tank was getting overgrown I removed a lot of plants. As I moved driftwood the amount of trapped crap and uneaten, decaying food was alarming. I realized that it was only a matter of time before the results of this decay would become evident in my fish and I was not able to take that chance. The picture I showed, depicting the tank before I tore it down is what it looked like when I removed the substrate. There were no problems at that time. It was like Jordan retiring after sinking the winning basket. Only I don't see myself coming back to the planted ranks anytime soon. I'm happy with my spotlessly bare tanks and my fish are too. I don't expect to see dinner plates, just thick, healthy and hopefully breeding Discus.

Dave

[ChloroPhil]

Thanks..I was curious..your tanks looked wonderful and I never got that with sand..:( Now I've got my sand under the Profile...:)

[Ralph]

That is the kind of reasoning we do here. Based on what happened with your experiences, some clues can be obtained that could be investigated in our attempt to have a functioning discus show tank. Maybe part of the answer is removing driftwood periodically to vacuum underneath. Maybe lost fish and a congested plant area is a problem. Maybe the answer is something as drastic as a complete tank teardown every six months (I hope not though). Every failure gives clues to future successes (I like that, I wonder if anyone has said that already).
And certainly your decision that a show tank was not worth the extra work or risk to you is perfectly valid and I would be the last one to try to convince you otherwise. I don't think, Dave, that you are the reason that this is an issue.

[peety]

I had a planted tank for over a year before moving house. (sigh) :'(

And have started again (3 months now) ;D

People think I'm insane when I say I do multiple water changes each day and test the water continuously but you'd probably say the same about the amount of work that I spend on my plants.... I trim foliage, I manicure grass, and remove algae by hand. I can't stop buildup completely but can manage it and to me it is worth as much effort as the fish. Perhaps this is the difference. To me the beauty is both fish and plants complementing each other. A horse standing on a concrete paddock feeding from a trough has no appeal. No matter how healthy the horse looks :-X :-X

I now have 2 bb tanks for breeding because I realise their purpose, but my pride and joy is my community tank, heavily planted, and holds several species. My cleanup crew get any and all missed food. It grows slowly but I expect it to with a relatively stable amount of nutrient. Fish are kept hungry and eat the vegetation and algaes. Its a garden not a tank.

I agree planted tanks are difficult, but discus aint a stroll in the park either, and you'd have to say they are worth it... ::)

Will post pic if Santa gives me a digital....

peety

[ChloroPhil]

David,

I wouldn't call the buildup of mulm in your aquarium a general failure on any grounds. It's simply the way things are, and with the growth your plants showed on a weekly basis I would seriously hesitate to say that there was any harmful build up. Were you supplimenting Nitrate and Phosphate at all?

I agree wholeheartedly that immature discus do much much better in a bb or potted plant aquarium. I'm trying to raise a pair in a bb right now and that's enough work for me, I'd go insane trying to maintain a tank full of plants as well.

Regarding your Ottocinclus problem. It's an unfortunate situation that 99.9% of our Otto supply is wild caught and don't transport well. Most don't eat for the week or two it takes to get from the exporter to the hobbiest and that tends to do all but the most hearty fish in and losses of 80% are really common though hard to accept. After reading your journal I find it hard to believe that you had anything to do with the deaths.


Peety,

I like your horse and paddock analogy...that's quite an image. You mentioned multiple daily water changes, are those on your BB or planted aquariums? I'd go berserk if I had to do daily WC on my display tanks...1-2x/week is enough for me.

What species of plants did/do you have in your display aquarium? I think that success with a planted discus aquarium depends greatly on the type of plants chosen and would be interested in seeing what you've had success with.


Ralph,

Once the Plant Bug has caught you firmly if you're able to keep from completely redoing an aquascape for more than three months you're a stronger person than I. :) I believe there is great merit in complete replantings every three or four months. Not only does it allow you to try a new design, but it gives you the chance to clean house.


Et al,

I've got a friend who had a tank that was chock full of plants and had a horrible algae and possible waste buildup problem. Like a good plant keeper he was patient and let his plants establish themselves really well while just trimming the upper portions. He had some very full growth, but he also couldn't get his vaccuum down in-between the bunches to clean up. He recently let me tear his plants up and do a serious cleaning job and re-design. After everything was said and done his whole aquarium was looking great and was showing much greater health than before.

Just as planted discus tanks are an exercise in compromise a three or four part replanting cycle might be the best compromise in this situation. Section your tank off in three or four parts and replant one section every other week. This will keep the majority of plants established to keep the algae down and will also allow you to keep those hard to reach places free of excessive buildup. Just make sure to wait a month or two before starting this cycle. :)

[b3dlam]

I have been following this thread, and i thought i might add my two cents worth.

Balance. I believe this is the key to keeping happy discus in a planted tank.

Scenario: If you kept one pair of discus in a 10,000 Gallon planted tank, you will not have to do waterchanges whilst feeding the fish 6-10 times daily. Whilst this is a scenario unlikely to happen for the average aquarist, it does highlight that waterchanges are more important certain scenarios than others. I find it difficult to believe that large waterchanges in a 10000 gallon tank with only a pair of discus will hold much value. In the smaller confines of the typical BB tank, the stocking levels are typically higher. This is why you would change the water as often as possible.

In a 8x2x2 BB tank, most discus keepers would have 10+ discus which are fed numerous times a day. In my planted tank, I am keeping 4 discus and a number of small tetras. I try to feed the discus at least 4 times a day to promote good growth. Plants remove the toxins identified by many people as the cause of aquarium polution (namely nitrogen compounds).

Of more effect to the wellbeing of discus is the level of 'food competition' in a planted community tank. Left to their own devices with tetras and faster swimming fish (e.g. mollies), discus will not be able to eat as much as they would in a discus only BB tank.

At the end of the day, you CAN have discus in a planted tank. Due to the higher feedings required by discus, the stocking levels must be adjusted to meet the maintainability aspect of a planted tank and the water conditions required by discus. Sounds a lot like 'balance'....

;)

my two cents.

[DavidAJ]

Hi all ,

Being a newbie to Discus ( I've had experience w/ other fish), after reading this thread and all the others about planted vs. bb tanks I have decided to actually get rid of all of the decorations in my tank.

It's not that I don't want to keep them but it's almost like I have to at this point. My fish are juvies , I've had them just a week now , they aren't the greatest looking fish in the world but none the less , they are mine and I want to give them the best care I possibly can. I can always get better quality fish in the future, I don't even know if we are staying in this home to much longer. This is my test time so if I can keep them alive , happy and growing, stripping the tank down seems to me a no brainer.

I do have one question though, I have a couple of upside down cats and they really do need a place to hide during the day . I was wondering would it be ok to just add a piece of driftwood or a couple of pieces of PVC tubing in the corners to give them a place to hide ? I really would rather not have to move them out.

Thanks and have a great holiday folks ,

David :)

[ChloroPhil]

PVC is a great idea.

[peety]

Hey Bio,
I know I should be keeping notes on plant species but haven't :-\ :-\

When I first started I had so many failures there didn't seem to be much point and now I'm lazy :-[

I agree some species just don't work (no matter how many times I bought and replanted ;))

I will make an effort to start noting down correct species names, but some are native to New Zealand. Some also only survive for about 3-5 months, then I buy another and replant, just because they are worth the effort. I currently have about 23 species of plant in my tank at present. It is also a paludarium, so have various mosses and ferns on top. The tank water used to feed the plants on top but my timer has died so Its hand watering at the mo :( :(

And yep, I do at least 10% water change on my planted tank as well as 20% on bb's each day. Takes about an hour and stops me from watching some crappy soap on TV or similar.

Planted tank also has leopard, zebra, albino danios, corys, bristlenose, neons, glow plugs, fancy guppy, rummy nose, sae, clown loach, striata loach, harlequins, and, of course discus.

I'm trying to hand raise 30 discus fry at the mo and that takes more time than anything.......


peety

(got some pics coming)

[DavidAJ]

Well folks,
I finally went with a bb tank today. Within an hour the fish responed-
ate and are having a WONDERFUL time ;D . I'm glad I did it. It will be so much easier to clean.
Now to get the water parms down a bit......

David

[ChloroPhil]

DavidAJ,

I'd like to suggest using some sort of floating plant like Duckweed, Salvinia, or Riccia on your bb. They're all nutrient hogs and don't clutter up the bottom of the tank. I bet your fish would love you even more than they do now if you do.

[tjudy]

:)
I use a lot of planted driftwood. The advantage is that I can use no gravel or just a dusting of gravel. I must admit that I do not like the looks of bare bottom. Another advantage is that if I need to do anything to the tank that might harm the plants, all I need to do is remove the piece to a different tank, or even to a bucket of water for a day or two. I get the enjoyment of plants without the gravel!

These pics are of pieces that are in tanks with gravel... but I think that you get the idea. I just happen to have pics of these pieces, not of the ones in the tanks with a dusting of gravel.

[tjudy]

Here is another...

[Don_Lee]

Great pics Ted! Looks like you are a great source of real African driftwood, which is tough to find at times IME. You will be hearing from me!

Don ;D

[bottle-blonde]

it is hard to find big pieces of african driftwood these days. it keeps getting smaller and smaller but the prices seem to stay the same. i wonder if it's had any negative affects on the deserts that have been harvested for the stuff. i wonder if those pieces are driftwood helped reduce erosion or provided a piece of shade for a small plant to grow in.

[tjudy]

:)
The company Driftwood Africa strives to be very eco-friendly. You can read about them at www.driftwoodafrica.com. Their collection area includes over2 million acres of private ranch lands in eastern Africa (Zimbabwe and Zambia). None of their pieces are dug up or cut.. they are all surface collected. The amount of wood that is there is supposedly staggering. I have seen pictures of their sorting stations. I hope to go visit next Winter.

Some wood types (mostly 'malaysia' wood and 'swahala/wellaby/mopane' wood) come from the tropical regions of west africa. They are often dug out of the ground or cut from trees.. often living trees.

Driftwood Africa is very specific about collecting only from the surface. They describe it as 'elephant made'. Apparently the herds of elephants will pick a tree and just tear is apart. Over the next couple hundred years the effects of weather and fire create what we call 'driftwood'.

As far as large pieces are concerned, the number one reason for their scarcity is the cost of shipping. That drives up the price of all wood, but on larger pieces it is really significant. I can get pieces up to 40 feet long if a person wants to pay for it! (Some zoos do!... ;D)

[bottle-blonde]

thanks for the info! i must confess that i just broke down and bought a 2.5 kilo piece of mopani. i'm boiling it right now. i might get another to replace all my river stones with. i'm tempted to head to the woods to look for some fallen branches though because the amano pictures of the amazon biotope has really inspired me. it looks very easy to create the amazon look using wood and maybe some water sprite. floating plants seems like a good alternative to planted because i'd still be able to easily clean my grow out tank.

[bottle-blonde]

added the driftwood and the discus are scared to death of it. they won't go anywhere near it - not even for food. the cories are diggin' it though!

[Ralph]

Sometimes new stuff in the tank will really throw them off but other times, they don't even seem to notice, and I don't know why. But they are usually fine the next day and all is forgiven.
Those Amano underwater pictures opened some possibilities for me too. I'd always used these chunks of driftwood but the photos had mostly branches, and those were often in tangled masses. I should have known that already, that is how driftwood on every river I've ever seen looks. I also liked the shot with the aerial root branching out in the water. I'm doing a growout tank with driftwood, an aerial root, and a few plants.

[bottle-blonde]

it's the next day and they're still hating it. looks like the black neons have designated it as home base though.

[tjudy]

;)
Check out this piece!!!

[bottle-blonde]

very nice!

hey, what's the rule of thumb? if the driftwood is from the ocean would you tend to not use it because of the salt?

[Ralph]

Not to worry, I use the Malasian driftwood a lot and it is, to my knowledge, all ocean driftwood.

[tjudy]

:)
Hi Ralph...

'Malaysian' wood, believe it or not, comes from Africa. I have no idea why they call it that. That type of wood is dug up from tropical swamps in equatorial west africa. That is one reason is is so dirty and releases a lot of tannins. It has great 3-dimensional shape though, and the tannin release only lasts a few months if regular water changes occur.

No wood that is dense enough to readily sink is likely to be from the ocean. Even though salt water is more boyant, woods like mopane and malaysian wood will readily sink in it. Wood that gets to the bottom of the ocean would be difficult to harvest.

[Ralph]

There's no truth in advertising.
One of the pieces actually came with a tag that explained where and how the wood was collected, you can't trust anyone anymore.

[tjudy]

:)
Hey.. I could very well be wrong! I have been before. I am going on what I have been told by the poeple I buy wood from... the importers. I would be interested in hearing what that tag says.. especially the name of the company selling the wood.

[Ralph]

Hi Ted,
I didn't save the tag, it was on a piece that I bought from Petco (it was actually a nice piece and on sale!). I have no idea if it was true or not though the wood did take 2 months to sink. Having worked in retail though, I don't usually trust their sales rap. I can easily imagine somebody in a warehouse slapping the tags on every piece of wood, no matter where it came from.
It is possible that "Malasian" has just come to mean any red driftwood (a little like a Tefe Green or Alenquer Discus). Do know if there is a way to keep the wood red, all mine turn brown eventually in the water?
The stump I got from you dropped the first night and looks great, photos on the way. Thanks again.

[tjudy]

:) The reddish color of malasia wood will leach out as tannins. That is what has happened to all of mine. They eventually changed to a nice dark brown.

[lauris]

two cents:

1. It is my understanding that the natural environment for discus is mud with some roots through which tea colored water flows. Conversations I have had with collectors/importers and review of some of the books on collecting, etc. seem to confirm this. So, I don't think the Amano type planted tank, or any planted tank for that matter is necessarily the natural environment for discus. What is "natural" for a highly inbred color variant is probably a BB tank, its home for generations and generations.

2. Do both. I raise fry in BB tanks with all the frequent feedings/water changes. They seem to be most vulnerable at that age and why not maximize the ability to pump food and water to them. They are not very colorful then anyway and are not much for display. When they have reached adult size, a half dozen in a planted 55 with a school of corys is about as pleasant a vista as there is. Adults, especially wild types, are quite sturdy and hardy fish.

3. The bonus, or third cent: I tried the potted plant thing and found the workload intolerable. There is always loose gravel lying about the tank, and removing a single piece from behind a pot requires more dexterity than I have. The worst was the inevitable algae would grow on the pot, so I'd have to have two arms shoulder deep in the tank trying to scrub a dozen pots once a week or else they'd become overgrown with algae, or at least have some discoloration. All in all I found it to be quite imperfect in execution, although that was very likely my fault. I have "heard" that it is a way to go, but have yet to see it put in practice effectively.

[Ralph]

Hi Lauris,
Welcome to Simply and glad to hear your three cents worth.

Generally what we try to do in the Show Tank Section is discuss options. They vary quite a bit in terms of practicality and maintenance involved. And some may not be even a possibility due to health concerns. Each option has it's pluses and minuses as far as the work needed and the appearance of the tank.
Usually we recommend a BB grow out tank for young discus (though I didn't follow the advise myself). We often get first time fish keepers who want to start out with a planted discus tank which is arguably the most difficult freshwater aquarium set up there is. But I'm not here to destroy anyone's dream, so we help them as best we can.
The option you describe is one of the safer and easier compromises and it's a good choice. I think the potted plants can work but personally I don't care for the look. It comes down to your preferences based on your values.
If you feel like it, start a new thread and tell us about your fish and tank(s).

[ronrca]

Welcome Lauris to Simply! Here at simply we though a lot of ideas around and everyone is entitled to their opinion. Matter of fact, we encourage discussions where by we can pick each others brains and learn from one another.

Interesting points Lauris! However, can I differ in opinion with point #1! The other 2 are good!

The natural environment should also include decaying vegetation. In the rainy season, dont the rivers swell and flood acres of rainforest. Isnt the rainy season the onset of massive breeding? (Im asking questions, not trying to be rude).

The mud part is interesting because BB's are usually kept spotless, hardly a dirty experience.

My two cents:
What is more pleasing to see, a beautiful planted tank with gorgueos colored discus or a bare plain glass tank with the same colored discus?

One thing to remember with planted tanks, it is not a breeding tank or a growout tank. It is a show tank! BB's have their place, I totally agree but hardly the natural one.

[RobertHudson]

Well, I am biased because I grow plants professionaly, but I know several professional hobbyist that keep planted discus tanks, including Amano, Karen Randall, writer for aquarium fish magazine, and George Booth, who has written for AFM, TFH and PAM.

Read Karens article on planted discus tanks here:
http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1998/sep/aquatic/default.asp

read George Booths article on Discus and plants here

http://www.frii.com/~gbooth/AquaticConcepts/Articles/PAM_Discus.htm

According to Rocky Mountain Discus, plants and discus are a natural fit! ::)

[Ralph]

Hi Robert,
Glad to see you posting here, welcome to Simply. Also congratulations on your new forum format, I like the look and the new higher speeds.

I've read both those sites and really like their balanced look at the question. It was actually George's article that first convinced me to give a planted discus tank a try. I thought he was very honest about what to expect. Personally I think discus and plants are a great fit for many reasons, including I think that the discus even like the plants in their tank. We are also working here on ways to have plants in the aquarium without gravel or with just a little (which is really the main complaint about planted tanks, keeping the gravel clean) such as potted plants, plants on driftwood, floating plants, etc. The idea is to give people options to find their own balance between ease of care and tank appearance.

Anyway, glad you're here, feel free to post anytime.

[ChloroPhil]

Hi Robert,

It's good to have you here...a little pro-plant bias never hurt anyone. At least not in this forum anyway...:)

[thebaglady]

Well, this was a very interesting thread to read. As yet, I don't own a single discus, but I'm glad I found Simply before i dive in.

I have many tanks and many fish. Mostly I keep cichlids (both OW and NW) killies and rainbowfish. Some of my tanks are BB and some are planted.

Here's what I know: plant your tanks heavily when you first set them up and use fast growing plants (to avoid algae problems) Do not use UG filters for planted tanks.

Cut down on light and increase WCs if algae starts to rear it's ugly head.

I like the idea of planted tanks and fish, especially shy, skittish fish who like the security of plants, but what I'm wondering is what about the HEAT of a discus tank....What are the best plants for a discus tank?

I decided bare tanks are best for juveniles and gowing the big adults. None of this applies to me yet, but I'm getting more and more excited :D :D Jen K (aka thebaglady)

[Darb019]

I have a 100 Gallon planted tank in my living room, I bought 6 small discuss about 10 months ago hoping that in a few years they would grow up, maybe find a pair and then I would move them into a bare tank for breeding as is suggested in this forum. Well to my surprise after about 8 months a pair of Pigeon Bloods started laying eggs, and tending them. Of course I got a bare tank ready to go for them.They were very defensive of their eggs and gaurded them ferrociuously, after the 3rd batch I had wigglers which they moved from driftwood to plants to rock. As it is a community tank of course they got eaten, but I know I have a fertile pair. I posted a picture of them with their eggs in the Photo section of this forum. They were breeding about every 10 days in the community tank. I have lots of plants, and Amazon sword plant that is spreading babies like crazy and lots of Val. I have 4 inches of gravel. with 2 Fluval 404 canister filters. They get fed Blood worms, shrimp, beefheart and flakes, and I change 15 gallons of untreated water twice a week.
They have been in the bare tank now for about 6 weeks and seem to have forgotten their love for each other.
I continue to wait patiently. Meanwhile a Cobalt Blue and a Pigeon Blood in the communuty tank are busily cleaning a patch of driftwood.

[Darb019]

I have attached a pic of the tank that the Discus in the previous note have grown up in.

[thebaglady]

Wow DarbO19 :o lovely pics! Again, another look at a tank I can only dream about. You seem to have that balance thing going good.

I went back and read the Karen Randall link which was provided by Robert Hudson on Feb. 13th to see what she had to say about HEAT and plants.

Right from the onset of the article, she says it's a myth. That from her experience, most plants do just fine, just need to increase nutrients and light for them...they use it faster. 8)

I have heard that plants benefit from water changes as much as fish do. It seems to me, Discus and plants would be "the perfect match"

[Ralph]

Welcome to Simply, Jen and David, and to the Show Tanks Section.

David, it looks like you are doing great already, congratulations on the breeding. A fertile pair is a big deal. I like your tank, it is well planted and that's a nice piece of driftwood. Thanks for posting the photos.

Jen, here is a thread that talks about which plants do well in the high temps of a discus tank, and you and Karen are right, the list of plants that don't do well would be much shorter.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=3663

[ronrca]

Beautiful tank and discus darb! Both certainly to be proud of! Good job and good luck with the breeding! ;)

[thebaglady]

Thank you for the thread info. Ralph and for the nice welcome. I gotta tell you though, this forum thing could be a problem for me.... :'(

It's positively addictive!!! There's so much to read and most of it is very interesting! How long has Simply been around, not yet a year? What if someone came into it two years from now ??? They will be overwhelmed.

My hats off to Al and Ryan and all the mods...this is great.

Maybe in addition to Discus, I'll take a speed reading class too. :thumbsup:

[Ralph]

Sounds like we have a future moderator here.

There is a website being planned to incorporate a lot of the basic info but you are right, I can't even keep up with the new posts, much less the historical stuff.

Glad you are here, and I like your nick name.

[thebaglady]

It was either that or the microworm queen :wave:

[Ralph]

You made the right choice.

[carman]

this is what I've been looking for. you guys are great.!

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//YaBBImages/thumbsup.gif


carman

[jamesmcsyd]

I've just moved from a substrate bottom- planted tank, to a BB tank but with plants in pots, and bogwood. This has WORKED WONDERS.

I can still keep the tank super clean with easy siphoning, and the plants and bogwood still gives a 'natural' look. In addition the ph stays naturally low, not that this is too much of a worry.

My point being, if you want a planted tank and have all the advantages of a BB, it can be done!

My main problem with a planted tank was the susceptability towards fluke infections. I think is a major drawback. Fluke eggs hide well in the substrate.

I'll try and get a picture up of my tank sometime.





James

[Ralph]

Framing the question in terms of this vs. that seems misleading to me now. The reality is actually a spectrum of choices between the two extremes. In fact, just today, two more options came up that offer some of the beauty of a planted tank with the practical aspects of a BB tank. And the great thing is that you can pick and choose as to what you want in your tank.
Looking forward to your photos.

[dm]

Here's a photo! No pots in this tank :)

http://www.members.cox.net/damiller/images/discuspl.jpg

[Ralph]

Nice tankDale!

Are those the Marlboros, if so, they really colored out well.

[dm]

Yup, thats them. I love the looks of them. I even prefer the peppering. It adds to coloring.

[AndyL]

So, why can't you have the best of both worlds? :)

I can't seem to pull myself away from my planted tank background, but I want discus. I came up with a excellent solution (at least on paper).

I'm going to do a bare bottom tank, but it will be heavily planted. I'm going to use lots of driftwood, to which will be attached java moss and willow moss (similar look, just darker, going to use the contrasting colors to highlight/hide some of the wood) Java fern, maybe some riccia. Then something along the lines of duckweed or frogbit as a floating plant.

Le voila! Planted barebottom tank :) Now if only my tank would arrive to do it in.

Andy

[Ralph]

No tank Andy? That could be a problem. Tankless vs. protank, this could get heated.

That sounds like a great plan. I'm doing something similar witha couple of my tanks and one of the things I'm finding is that the driftwood pieces and their arrangement is vital to creating the illusion of being underwater in the Amazon. It's not quite the same problem in a heavily planted tank because the plants hide and distract from driftwood shortcomings.

One large piece of wood is easiest but due to finances and what I have available, I'm using several smaller pieces. Through trial and error I find the set up that looks best together and gives the illusion. A couple of generalities that I've stumbled upon (each with many exceptions I imagine):
Similar looking pieces (color, texture, complexity) seem to look better, though in the wild it wouldn't necessarily be the case.
Just slight adjustments of the pieces can make a big difference in the look, it probably has something to do with the visually pleasing proportions.
Pieces hanging down from the top generally look the best. Pieces sitting on the bottom or appearing to come out of the sides draw attention to the tank itself.
The overall looks better when the wood is "pointed" in one direction, it gives the illusion of a river flow.
Attached plants improve any set up. Though not true to a biotope, they just look good. But driftwood can be overplanted too.
A dusting of the bottom with sand (1/4" to 1/2") really helps a lot and can be almost as easy to keep clean as a BB.
I thought a tangled wood set up would look real, but I haven't found the right combination yet.
These have to do personal preferences though you may find any or all to be untrue for you.

The big puzzle for me though is why the bare bottom is such a big distraction to the illusion. Afterall, we could be recreating several cubic feet of river near the surface. And it is really just another side to the tank, you'd expect the back side of the tank to be even more important. The BB just seems to draw your eye there and remind you that you are looking at an aquarium. Maybe it's the mirror effect off the bottom. Maybe it's just what we are used to, having a substrate. I'm still working on it though.

[AndyL]

Have a read:

http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=4006090712&f=5196060812&m=4036013342

Don't kill me on the discus+angels thing (still undecided, tho I really want to put a pair of koi angels (not mated) in the tank)

Tank has been a clusterf**k from the getgo, the 55 I'm going to do it in will eventually show up :) Worst case, I'll get one from the LPS which will cost almost twice as much.

I just can't wait for spring break-up so I can go driftwood collecting. Need to find my patience in the meantime, cleaning driftwood found up here requires patience, this area is pretty polluted (naturally, and by heavy industry) so I have to be REALLY careful (last year it took about 6-8wks for each piece, but no fish deaths as a result)

Personally I'm going to go for the 'major' planting on the surface, thus getting the water quality benefits of a heavily planted tank.

Andy

[Ralph]

Several people here have angels with their discus without problems. My understanding is that is has to do with the type of angels and with the individual temperments of the fish. And they do share common areas of the river system.

That's a great thread. I like the idea of somehow hiding the bottom with wood, definately has possibilities.

Good luck with the tank.

[ChloroPhil]

For an even greater impression of being at the surface go Open Top and use floating plants like Eichornia crassipinis, or, get a plastic guppy breeder box, fill it with gravel, and put a sword in there. the box can be easily obscured with hanging wood and will look great growing out of the tank.

[Very Fishy]

I am new at Discus keeping, in fact I will be getting my first Discus tonight. After reading the pros and cons of BB versus gravel, I have decided to go Barebottom with some Java Fern attached to driftwood. When I removed the gravel from my tank, I was amazed at how much cleaner it looks. I also have a few silk plants with a weighted bottom to hold them upright in the tank. It gives tank a "planted look" with the ease of cleaning of a bare bottomed tank. Hope to add additional potted plants in the future. I will get the Discus first and get them settled in before I make any other additions. I agree that a planted tank with substate/gravel looks nice but be prepared for alot of extra work in cleaning it.

[Ralph]

Welcome to Simply Very (can I call you Very?)

I'm working on a post right now about hybrid tanks, they combine the best of planted tanks with BB. And your style of tank is one of them mentioned. A fully planted tank is not for everybody and it's great that we have some options between the two alternatives. And they are really a good choice for people new to discus keeping or those trying to raise young discus.

Post some photos if it's possible.

[thebaglady]

Yes, it's good to have options. I had a friend who kept Geophagus and was not a plant person, but he wanted to give his fish a sense of security.

In a slight sand bottomed 55 gal. tank, he used strips of plastic garbage bags weighted down with plant ties (or something). They were distributed around the tank as real plants would be...a clump here, a clump there.

It was amazing because they moved around like kelp in the ocean!! They looked much better than you would expect.

[Mat]

My own feelings are Discus look better in a tank with substrate, bogwwod(i use quite a bit to make it look like tree roots on a river bank, sounds a bit ott but it looks ok and the fish seem to enjoy the protection) i think barebottoms are great and the ones used in breeding tanks as well oo err 8)

[JDS]

I don't mean to inject my opinion especially since I'm new here. But the glaring thing I see when reading a lot of the post is the number of discus people seem to have in their tanks. I feel one of the benefits I have in keeping a salt water reef take is certain things are instilled in me now. Especially bio load. I'm setting up a 265 gal. planted tank. I will probably have 6 to 8 discus in it. I will raise the juveniles in a bb tank to achieve the growth that I want. But in my opinion to put 15 or more in my tank I will be defeating the whole purpose of the tank just by the bio load alone that in time will show its effects. You would be surprised how easy this hobby can be without having to deal with huge bio load's. If that means sacrificing the number of finish to achieve this so be it.

[ChloroPhil]

Amen. :)

[Don_Lee]

I am struggling with this issue right now, can we get some updated opinions on this subject? I am really struggling, I really want plants & discus, I may even forego the discus for the plants if need be right now. I'M SO CONFUSED! Looking for opinions here. ???

Don

[ari_wh]

Hi Don,

I told you before that once you go planted tanks, you would never go back to bb. I just like seeing my discus in planted tanks, even though there is more work involved in cleaning and caring for them. Of course, I have bb tanks for my grow out, but there is nothing more beautiful than having those beautiful discus in planted tanks.

And, no.... you don't have to forego the discus for the plants. They can co-exist. I attached my tanks pics. I know they are not as beautiful as some tanks posted here.... because I just have very simple set up, without CO2, as my water is way too soft (degree of hardness less than 1). So, I stick with plants that don't need CO2. That is probably why I never posted them before, except in Aussie3 thread....lol (too embarashing.....).

Well, I have raised discus in planted tanks before too.... and I found them still growing, although at slower rate. It all depends on what you want, I guess.... If you want 9inch discus in 6-9 months, you won't put them in planted tanks.... But, I am quite happy with the size of my discus. I think they look just right in my tanks.

Well... if you need more convincing.... I can write more. But, I have discus for over 3 years now, and I always have planted tanks for my adults.... and I can't be happier. Discus are happy and I am happy. I am sorry... but bb tanks don't do anything for me.

Regards, Ari :)

[ari_wh]

one more pics... although please don't take notice of that mongrel pigeon blood in the pics. He is Scott's favourite.... and I absolutely hate him.... but Scott won't let me get rid of him.... He has character, apparently....lol.

Regards, Ari :)

p.s. this is sideview of my tank.

[Don_Lee]

Ari! How have you been? It seems like forever since we "chatted." I hope you are well.
I appreciate your comments, they give me hope for my "dream." I just cannot see setting up a tank bare right now. Thanks so much for sharing, and I hope that I see you soon in chat..........

Don

[ari_wh]

Hi Don,

I have been busy with the baby...lol. She is now 8 months old though, crawling everywhere... She is growing up way too fast. Also, we just moved to remote part of Australia 6 months ago.... so a lot of things happening.

But, now... hopefully I can stop by and post more often... even chat... if Ella lets me... Just make sure you keep updating us with your 'new' tank.

Regards, Ari :)

[thebaglady]

Ella...what a lovely name :D Eight or nine months is a tough age to photograph though as I recall. Kinda squirmy!!

Don--I can recommend "the Toy Fish" by Albert Klee (who was the ACA last year) This book speaks of the early days of the fishkeeping hobby where there was a much different philosophy on plants and their role in aquaria. Low bio load coupled with plants that utilized fish waste as their nutrients and it was a balanced world before modern day filtration. History of our hobby....quite the interesting read.

Jen K. ;)

[lesley]

Hi Don,

You can have both discus and plants. Just takes a bit of patience while the tank balances out. When visitors come, they love all the discus but the planted tank is the one that draws the oohs and aahs the most. Mine varies between lots of stuff on top as well as the plants below, and then I have a clean out while everything grows back. Keeps a bit of interest as it is constantly changing.

Ari, that tank looks gorgeous. Do you have a blue background in the first pic??? The colours of the fish and plants look fabulous.

[wildy]

Ive been trying to keep and grow on discus for 5 months now in this tank, i ve lost 2 fish but what i have found is that it is very difficult to have a happy medium, for example co2 at 20ppm with no water movement is considered excellent for plants but my fish gasp and also my tap water is riddled with po4 causing hair algae to bloom no matter what i do, the only solution to the po4 is R.o. and i dont want to complicate things even more,so i think enough is enough, dont get me wrong i love my planted tank, but is it as beautiful as a shoal of 10 adult discus....

I was gonna go for potted plants but ive read that the plants become difficult to keep in these conditions, so i think it will proberly be just plain old bog wood....

[joelfish]

Wow,

Just got done reading this whole thread.

I have had both planted and bb discus tanks for..... gee I can't remember - 10 years? ::) I must have both!

whenever i try potted or bog wood, I just have too many probs w/algae and diatoms. maybe if i changed things around some i could do this, but I've never been successful with this compromise.

As for CO2, my plants AND discus do better with it as long as it's not overdone. I've used an oxygen meter and addition of CO2 always creates more dissolved oxygen (via increased photosynthesis) which the fish very much appreciate. OTOH, plants seem to hate lots of aeration. Anyone else notice these things?

I agreee with Dave's comments about declaring a success too early. I also agree with JDS that you need to keep stock levels low in the planted tank. This is key for me. I see the number of discus that some people are keeping in their planted tanks and I just think that I could never get away with that longterm.

There's no 'best' here for me, just tradeoffs!

Joel Fish

[ckll]

Just finished reading the whole thread! What a read! :)

I've been bitten by the planted bug a year ago. Keeping a 16gallons (2ft) planted tank and it had been a roller-coaster ride for the past year as far as the tank was concerned. Algae, greenwater, major re-scape, fish death, shrimp death, bacteria bloom.. the list goes on.

But the tank has been in rather prime conditions in recent months after having learned much from friends and exchanging opinions and arguments in planted tank forums. And guess what ? I've purchased four 3-3.5" discus (blue & red turqs) 3 weeks ago and they are now under quarantine in a BB tank. My original idea was put them into my 2ft planted tank, but having read that the recommendation was (is) 1 discus per 10g water, I've decided to upgrade to a bigger tank. Due to space constraints, I could only settle for a 3ft tank. It's arriving in a week's time. I'd be using the old gravel and matured filter and the discus would go into it after a week following the setup.

Sorry for the rant..

Cutting long story short (too late I guess ::) ;D ), I'd go for planted discus tank and would be more selective in choice of plants. Gotta give up on fast growers stem plants and cutting down lights from 3.2wpg to 1.6wpg.

Wish me luck! ;D

[Emminess]

In my opinion - Plain and simple - to clean a tank its far easier with no sand.

We have little pots with plants in them - it is so much easier to clean up the discus poo without all the sand and rocks in the way.

We have no nitrates in our tank - I'm like dude you don't let the poo breakdown thats why...

Maybe im wrong...if so, share your experiences. Knowledge is fine if you can tell me if it worked for you.

Emma. the pessimist but not wet blanket... ;D