water softner

[muggsie]

Hi I am new to this site and new to the caring of discus. I have 12 of them right now, 2 of the fish are a breeding pair. My water is 287 ppm hard and I would like to soften it and bring the ph down . The ph is 7.8 right now. I have looked into getting a r/o system for my home, 100gpd. as I understand there operation they seem to wast a lot of water. I have a well and do not want to stress it to much. From what I have read the r/o system only produces 5% of the water used the rest goes down the drain, is this right? Why cant you use a sears water softner? Thanks for the help......Bob

[bmrin1]

muggsie,
first off the ph is in the acceptable range and I think that your hardness is ok as well. The problem with water softeners is that al though they take calcium, magnesium and iron out of the water they do replace those with sodium chloride ions. Thus your water is not any softer in terms of tds., and your conductance will also stay the same or rise.
R/o units do waste water and that is just a fact of life that we live with. There are things that can be done to help that out but not eliminate it. Proper operating pressure and water temp. Having a well puts you at a disadvantage, lower pressure and cold water. A pressure boosting pump and a mixing valve can give you higher pressure and temp.
The best thing that you can do is leave your water stable, changing water parameters will stress your fish. Change lots of water (aged and warmed) and watch your fish thrive.
Brian

[muggsie]

I know the fish will live in a ph of 7.8 and a hardness of 287ppm. The big question is will they lay eggs and will the eggs hatch. Right now my tanks are set up for angel fish and I would like to breed and raise discus. The angels breed like flys in my water. Everything I read says you need soft water with a ph of 6.0 to 6.5 to breed them. is this true? thanks

[ronrca]

Agree with Brian!

Breeding is not dependant so much on ph as it is on conductivity (tds). The lower the tds the better (within reason). R/O water will lower tds, not softeners. Your discus will lay eggs however you will not get a good to none hatching rate.

[RandalB]

Bob,
The people posting replies to you are giving you the straight dope regarding R/O units. 5% product is not entirely accurate though. Your water is not all that terrible and should give you better perfomance than 5% depending on the pressure and ground water temp. You are already close to the Ideal PH for an R/O unit (8.0). Under Ideal conditions an R/O unit should have a product to waste ratio of around 1:2 (Product : Waste)If water waste is an issue, it can be caught and used for grow out and gardening, etc. A booster pump would also be a good investment and save lots of waste water while giving you an increase on that 100GPD you are looking at.

Just remember, before you spend $200-300 on an R/O unit, you can DIY (Do it yourself) for under $120.00. The markup on R/O units is pretty high and in a lot of cases the only difference is the sticker on the unit.

Hope this helps,
RandalB

Brian and Ronrca keep up the good posts!!

[Jeff_Hart]

Just a note, I tested my tds on water run through my softener and it came out at over 1200ms. Higher then my straight well water as far as tds is concerned. (tons of salt in it I assume) So I run my R/O units from water before the softener.

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Jeff:
You may want to check on placing your RO after your softener. I think the salts from the softener are easier on your membrane than the calcium and magnesium. RandalB?
Carol :heart1:

[RandalB]

Carol,
You are absolutely correct. Magnesium and Calcium will foul a R/O membrane faster than sodium.

Jeff,

Using a water softener first will help extend the life of the membrane. Remember to flush your membrane regularly and you should have no problems getting the rated 2 years out of your membrane.

RandalB

[RAWesolowski]

Randal,

What's the best way to flush a RO membrane?

[muggsie]

Ok this helps me a lot about understanding the life of the r/o system. So if I get a sears water softner I should put the r/o system after the water softner. I have a conductivity meter it reads 10 to 1990 Ms. From what I have read I am looking to get a reading of 70 Ms in the water storage barrel to do my water changes in my breeding tanks. Is this the right number? What is the difference between a conductivity meter and a TDS ? Can I use the waste water in my angel fish grow out tanks with out any harm? thanks.....Bob

[RandalB]

Bob, to answer your questions, A TDS Meter is a conductivity meter that does a simple conversion to estimate Total Dissolved solids. 70 Ms is fine for Discus. I prefer a little higher (100-120). With my water I get a little more Ph stability with this level. There is no problem using your waste water to grow out angels it will be a little harder than your normal tap water. I've had no problem raising baby angels in mine. Putting the R/O unit after the softener will give you better performance and longer membrane life.

Hope this helps,
RandalB

[Steve_Warner]

Hi all,
Hey Bob, there is some good info on this thread for ya. I have an R/O hooked up to a "softened" water line in my house. My softener uses Salt(Sodium Chloride) to exchange the hardness ions (Calcium & Magnesium primarily) for Sodium ions, which are less likely to precipitate(they stay in solution/dissolved better). I also use warm water to run through the R/O, which increases the output to waste ratio due to the density of the water, I believe. There should be a calculation in the R/O unit manual for the percentages of waste to product ratios possible with varying temps. R/O units(mine , at least) stated production rates are usually printed with regards to three parameters, temp., TDS & line pressure. My unit is a 60 GPD @ 500ppm TDS, 60psi and 77degrees F. HTH

Steve

[muggsie]

Thank you all for the help. I have been e-mailing Walter from water and ice and he can build one for me. I have to call him to firm thing up. I was planning on mixing the hot and cold water befor sending it thru the r/o unit. I guess the fish dont realy care about the water that much early this morning a blue diamond and a red one layed eggs on the heater tube. these fish are only 4 to 5" in size, and in a tank with 8 other discus. I still have to set up my 29 gal breeding tanks, they are all drilled and plumbed for overflow drains, I just need to run the air and fill lines. Thanks again for the help..............

[Mick M]

For information only.

Do NOT hook up your HOT water to this system yet!

1- Water over a certain temp will harm the membrane. 84F
I think. (29.4C)
Unless you can be absolutely certain that this can never happen DONT.

2-Do a few tests' on your HOT water out the tap and see what results you get.

I do understand that your water/ heating systems are different over the pond but I believe the basics are the same. Water running through a heat exchanger/ boiler will alter from that being put in- over time.

This is what I have learnt over time. Please talk with Walter etc.. They obviously know more than I.

[RandalB]

Bob, I just noticed that I missed a question that you asked. The best way to flush a R/O membrane is to simply remove the flow restrictor and let it run for several minutes unrestricted. There are lots of restrictor bypass kits out there that you can buy for $20 on up. All they are doing is bypassing the restrictor with a ball valve to activate and deactivate. I've even seen electric auto timers to operate the flush cycle. Bottom line, you can manually remove the restrictor and save $$$.

There are lots of minor differences in R/O units, but in most cases the flow restrictor is a small disc in the wastewater fitting on your membrane housing or an inline cylinder on the wasteline itself.

A R/O unit I purchased on E-bay a few years ago had a regular needle valve in place of the restrictor allowing me to flush by opening it full. There are lots of variatons but most are like the above paragraph.

Sorry about the delay,
RandalB

[jeep]

Sorry to jump in so late here, but I have a friend that want to start discus for plearure only. She has a whole house water softener and my question is this:

Is softened water ok for discus? I know most of the minerals are removed and replaced with sodium. Can the fish live in water where the only trace mineral is salt? Or will she have to replace the minerals???

[Steve_Warner]

Hi all,
Jeep- you want to tell your friend to NOT use this water, as it is filled with Sodium ions. It will not only INCREASE the conductance of the water, but it will also draw water out from cells due to osmotic pressure, since water seeks to equalize pressure(salinity content) between separate areas(Cells/body and water area/tank). Think of it as if you were to drink ocean water....the salt in that water will draw the "Purer water" out of your body's cells, back into where that salt water is stored to balance out the salinity content between areas. That is why you NEVER drink sea water if you're stranded out at sea! Did you ever do the science experiment with the plant leaf under a microscope in school? Adding a drop of salt water will make the cells shrivel(Sp.?) due to the drawing out of water(less pure than water in cells), while adding a drop of distilled water will burst the cells due to the uptake of the water(more pure than the water in cells). Also, salt is more soluable in water than Calc or Mag ions and that is why I run Sodium softened water through my R/O(less scaling and easier to flush). I also flush my R/O the same way that was mentioned by RandalB......removing the flow restrictor for a minute or so. Mick is correct in stating DO NOT hook up the R/O to straight hot water. In my manual, it states that 110 deg. F or higher is the "no-no" point for my membrane. I run warm water (95-ish) through my R/O unit, as it produces more output to waste ratio due to water's density(viscosity) I believe it was. I have a 65 GPD unit and can probably get a good 75^ out of it in 24 hours if I had a big enough storage tank(only have a 55gal) HTH

Steve

[jeep]

Thanks Steve, that's pretty much where I was thinking, although not a detailed ;)

[jeep]

How about replacing the salt with potassium?

My guess would be that the discus still need other trace elements???

[RandalB]

Steve's exactly right. Softened (Sodium replacement) water is not a great idea for raising fish.

The membrane will be damaged by excessive heat also. DOW lists the maximum operating temperature as 113 degrees Fahrenheit (95 at PH above 10) for Filmtec memranes. The higher temperature gives greater molecular motion which increases the efficency of the membrane.

I prefer to boost pressure to gain membrane efficency rather than temp because my R/O unit is hard plumbed and I can't be 100% sure that the temp will stay where it needs to be. Also the family would kill me if there was no hot water for the shower because I am using it with the R/O unit (LOL). I get enough static about the fish as it is!

As far as replacing the sodium with potassium goes I think it would be impossible to accurately judge how much would be needed to replace the sodium Ions in the softened tap water and I am not sure if it would be a better thing. The best solution would be to add an R/O unit after the house softener to remove the sodium and whatever else gets through rather than play chemist possibly to the detriment of the fish.

Just for info sake how bad is the unsoftened water your friend has? She might not need to do anything.

Hope this helps,
RandalB

[dm]

Correct me if I am wrong but I think this was probably locked on accident so I unlocked it again.

[Cowboy]

I like the DIY idea. Where do I find the information needed to do that?
Todd

[RandalB]

Anyone who's interested:

I am rewriting the parts list, and I'll be happy to send it along when I get it finished.

Thanks,
RandalB

[jeep]

Randal,

Her softener is "hard wired" into her house. She got-ripped off to the tune of $5 grand, so removing it is not an option.

Your quote:

"As far as replacing the sodium with potassium goes I think it would be impossible to accurately judge how much would be needed to replace the sodium Ions in the softened tap water and I am not sure if it would be a better thing."

I'm not sure exactly what you meant, but what I meant is that I've seen systems that soften the water by using potassium in place of salt. I just didn't know if it's as easy as using different media to soften the water, or if systems are built differently to handle different types of media, but you still would have a lack of necessary trace elements.

Now I'm thinking she can just use her outside spiggots for her tank water since that water does not run through the softener.

Brian

[RandalB]

Brian,
Just a little confusion,I thought you meant trying to substitute potassium AFTER the water had already been softened with sodium.

I'm not familiar with potassium replacement units personally, But I'm not certain the added potassium would be any better than sodium. 6 of 1, half dozen of another. If anyone has experience with the potassium softening units please jump in here.

I think the outside faucet idea is the best, avoid the whole NA/K debate. Just for info what's the water like before softening?

[RAWesolowski]

Randal,

I can use either the traditional softener "salt", sodium chloride, or I can use the cleaner "salt", potassium chloride. The Potassium does not give the "slick" feel in the shower that sodium produces but has a greater tendency to crust in the brine tank and diminish unit efficiency.

In any case, it's two salt ions.

[Steve_Warner]

Hi all,
Brian, I was rapping with our chemist at work the other day about my R/O and softener. He asked me what I used in the softener and I told him Sodium Chloride. He asked me why I don't use Potassium Chloride(I have before), since it is an added bonus of plant fert along with a water softener. I never really thought of that, but told him it was much more expensive than Sodium Chloride($6.50/bag compared to $2.50/bag). My house is plumbed into the softener for ALL water taps EXCEPT the kitchen sink and ALL outside hose bibs, due to plant watering capabilities(since most people fill up their plant jugs at the kitchen sink, I am told). If your friend was getting the "Tap" water to mix in with the R/O from a "Softened" feed, then she was adding MAJOR Sodium ion filled water(devoid of Calc/Mag) to stripped R/O water, making it a salty solution. She should be able to get "regular" tap feed from her kitchen sink faucet or any hose bib faucet outside. These should all have the water with Calc/Mag salts and other traces as well, BUT will also have the Chlorine or Chloramine, as well as any other nasties, if treated by the water supplier!!!!!! HTH
P.S-----FIVE GRAND for a softener :o :o :o "Holy Crapamoly, I'm in the wrong line of work!" Actually, this just goes to show there are some BAD snakes in the grass out there!

Steve

[Keystonediscus]

Do not hook up your hot water line to your RO unit your wife will kill you on the first cold shower she gets Trust me it uses quite a bit of water and will make your water heater work harder to keep water hot for you running a plain cold water line will be fine if you wanted to you could get an electrical pipe heater wire to heat the line a little before entering the filter it may help raise the temp a little but really its not necessary the RO unit will work fine with minimal loss in production


Jeep in answer to your very good question about minerals the discus need I regenerate my RO water with a formula a good friend of mine gave me a long time ago. 3 grams calcium Sulfate, 1 gram magnesium sulfate (epsom salts), 1 gram calcium Chloride (Sea Salt) mix this ratio per 20 gals as a starting point +/_ whatever you need to get the right microsemens for your fish. Juvies need 250 -350 Ms adults 150-200 ms and breeders 50-180 ms email me if you need help finding the calcium sulfate i have a source. this formula will give you everything you need to stablize RO waer and give your discus what they need for proper growth and development.