Disease or Normal?

[Tin Pusher]

I have a pair in a 50 gallon planted tank and I am troubled by something they like to do. Mostly the male will swim up to a Sword plant and slowly line it up so that the edge of the plant is just behind his eye then give a burst of forward speed so that the edge of the plant runs down his side quite fast. To an beginner like myself it sounds like something I would do if I had a itch and had no arms.

Thanks

[Carol_Roberts]

Once or twice a day normal. Once or twice a minute problem.
CArol :heart1:

[Tin Pusher]

It has gotten much worse. I have moved the two fish to another tank. The female still shows no signs of problems but the male is rubbing to the point where there is noticable patches of wear, all on one side. There are 3 wear patches, one near the base of dorsal fin, one behind gill fin (sorry forgot the name, caudal I think), and one along lateral line half way to tail. I have responded by increasing temp. to 94 degrees and up salt from 1 to 2 tbsp/10 gal.
I will keep you posted with updates and please feel free to give me advice as this is new to me.
Thanks
PS Water changes: twice a day 30% each time, new tank not cycled yet.

[Carol_Roberts]

Did I read on another thread where you recently imported this pair from Asia? Tank not fully cycled too?

You want ammonia and nitrItes as close to zero as possible. This may mean 3 or 4 or 5 30% waterchanges per day.

If bacterial skin problem high temps are not the answer. Bacterial love high temps. Meds used to treat bacterial infections may kill whatever filter bacteria you have anyway.

So, do you think the problem is bacterial, uncycled filter or both?
Carol :heart1:

[Tin Pusher]

Yes from Asia. Tank not cycled. As far as bacterial or not. I don't know. He started off rubbing himself on leaves in the old tank and there was no sign of skin problems. I am leaning toward the skin abrasions as being caused by the rubbing which was brought on be gill flukes. All this is based purely on reading books and this forum so feel free to ask more questions and give advice.
Thanks

[Carol_Roberts]

Probably not gill flukes if 4 inch or larger fish. Maybe just ammonia burns being colonized by opportunitic bacteria.

Do lots of water changes with water of the same parameters to keep ammonia and nitrite levels close to zero, two or three tablespoons salt per 10 gallons (replaced with each water change - add 10 gallons water to tank, add 3 tablespoons salt). If you don't see an improvement within a day or so of ammonia levels being zero you will need to try an antibiotic.

Carol :heart1:

[Tin Pusher]

So you suggest dropping temp from 94? Can I do both more salt and high temp and maybe even antibiotics also? Sort of a shotgun approach. If I lower temp how low and how slowly should I do it?

[Carol_Roberts]

Lower temp 2 degrees per day until 88 degrees. Are you able to keep ammonia at zero? Has there been any change is discus? Lets do one thing at a time.
Carol :heart1:

[Tin Pusher]

Ok 2 degrees/day til 88. Discus more active with increased temp so far. Just a thought, although I will change the water as often as I am able I do work and may only get one change in a day on rare ocassion. I know there are ammonia removers I can add to my penguin filter. Should I use them along with the water changes. That would assure zero ammonia. How about nitrate and nitrite removers.

[Tin Pusher]

Sat down on my break and started reading the whole disease section and came across some excellent topics started by Steelhead on page 14. The picture found on "Chilodonella Parasite" was basically a picture of my fish and the description was exactly what I am going through.

[Tin Pusher]

Just got home and the patches have spread. They now go to the top of the dorsal fin and on the other side there is a patch starting behind the caudal fin. There is also a patch starting on the tail fin. All new in the last 12 hours while I was at work. Bigger patches almost look to be fuzzy but cannot tell as fish are hidding in the far corner of a dimmly lit tank.
Tell me to sit tight with the salt only approach (2 tbsp/10 gal.) and I will. Tell me to buy $50 worth of meds and I will. I know its is a tough spot to give advice without seeing the fish but no blame will be given for a wrong call. Excuse the panic in my typing but can I continue salt and add a medication at the same time? How about a med for me, all pet stores should carry an owner relaxent. Keep it in the Discus section, I never went through this with guppies. Temp rose to 96 after I added 2nd heater last night, did 40% W/C and brought temp down to 94. Will let it fall to high 80s overnight.
Thanks
signed duffus

[Carol_Roberts]

If your fish are getting worse try meds. Read this thread first - especially Cary Sstrong's reply http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=4489
He is recommending Tetracycline, marcide + salt.

I think it more likely your discus have a bacterial disease from shipping or columnaris + bacteria attacking gills, but who knows what an import might have - maybe it is chilodonella, if so the high heat and salt listed as a cure are already in your tank.

Only you can see your fish, we can only guess. Let us know what meds you use and how the fish responds.
Carol :heart1:

TINPUSHER,


TRY MARACIDE AT 2 DROPS PER GALLON. COMBINE THAT WITH TETRACYCLINE DOUBLE DOSE. KEEP ALL LIGHTING OFF
AND CHANGE YOUR WATER EVERY 48 HRS. 4 TREATMENTS WILL BE NEEDED.

ALSO MAKE SURE YOUR TANK IS FULLY COVERED.
SALT AT 1TBS PER 2 GALS WILL ALSO HELP WITH SECONDARY INFECTIONS.


ON A SECOND NOTE AND A LESS STRESSFUL TREATMENT
TRY FURAN2 AT TRIPLE DOSE MIXED WITH MAROXY AT DOUBLE DOSE. REPEAT THIS TREATMENT DAILY ONLY WITH A 50% W/C ADDING A HALF DOSE FROM ABOVE DOSE DAILY
6 TREATMENTS WILL BE NEEDED.

IMO IT SOUNDS LIKE A PROTOZOAN HOWEVER IF A PROTOZOAN IS PRESANT THEN SO IS A BACTERIA INFECTION. SALT CAN ALSO BE USED AT SAME DOSE FROM ABOVE METHOD.

HELP ME HERE WHEN YOU LOWED YOUR TEMP DID THE DISCUS GET WORST? ANYWAY RIGHT NOW ITS SOUNDS THAT A NICE MILD TEMP OF 87f WOULD BE YOUR BEST BET.


KEEP US POSTED
HTH
CARY GLD!

[April]

thanks Cary... tin pusher this guy knows his stuff. hes helped me a few times..and the furan and maroxy did wonders for my fish. id go with his treatment.
and king ed will have those meds there. hope it works.
let us know.

[Carol_Roberts]

Yep, listen to Cary. He knows his meds.
Carol :heart1:

[Tin Pusher]

I went to Seachem Paraguard before all this great advice came in. After 3 days it has mostly cleared up. I have read a few posts that are against Paraguard and several that praise it. In fairness to all I think it just as likely that time and salt cured them as did the med. Anyways as I said it is almost gone, how long should I continue with the Paraguard and salt? I was thinking go for 3 days past the last sign of skin problems.

Thanks to all for taking the time to respond

[Tin Pusher]

Its been 11 days since my last post. No more signs of fungus or skin problems. Fish are a little darker than normal. Anytime I enter the room they swim behind the 2 sponge filters that is on the rare occasions that they are not already there. They are not eating except for the odd frozen bloodworm every few days but even then they mostly just stare at it. Sometimes the male bites at the females side and pushes her out of there hiding spot. She then curls up in the far corner by herself. Other times he allows her to be beside him. The normal aquarium light really makes them hide. The room light is better but no light except from the other room makes them the most active. pH stabalized at 7.0. 40% W/C daily. On occasion the ammonia creeps up to .20 ppm but one change a day is usually all I can do as I am away the rest of the time.

Thanks for your patience with me and my patients ???