DISCUS PLAGUE

[PLECO JOHN]

Hi everyone, I was highly recommended to come to you by a friend. I have what appears to be symptoms of DISCUS PLAGUE. After over one year of keeping Discus seemingly very healthy I have lost two in the last week and could see it coming. My fish turned grey and developed a coating of slime that looks like I could peel it right off.
Does anyone know of any medications that I can pick up at my LFS to treat my 65gal. tank. Is theier something in particular that I need.
I've read about DISCUS PLAGUE and it seems that the common denominator is Tetracycline. PLEASE HELP........I look forward to getting to know some of you. Buy the way, my largest fish is @ 4 1/2" and right now I have 5 about that size and smaller. AGAIN, MY THANKS TO THOSE WHO CONTRIBUTE TO MY DILEMA...........PLECO JOHN

[Wolf]

I am far from an expert but I will try to help you out a little since I had a similar experience. I am assuming that since you have been keeping discus for a year that all your water parameters are good and you do regular water changes on your fish and keep a clean tank environment. Is your tank a planted tank or bare bottom? Did this occur after you added new fish to the tank? Did they develop any white spots in the early stages of infection? Read the post above on columnaris and see if this could be the problem.

Always quarantine new fish for at least 6 weeks before adding to your tank. I had a similar thing happen to me. I was advised to add one tablespoon of salt per 10g and change water daily 50% with aged water of same temp and parameters. Don't forget to replace the salt that you take out during water changes. If that doesn't help slow down the infection, you may have to go to other meds. Hopefully , someone with more experience can help you out some. I had to use 250mg of erythromiacin per 10g gallon for 10 days to cure my fish since they had acquired some bacterial infection but using antibiotics is not usually recommended. Especially, if you don't know what you are treating for.

Take a look at this link and tell me if that's what your fish looked like. I'd be interested to hear if you added any new fish too.

http://members.shaw.ca/dclubine/quarantine.htm

Dave

http://members.shaw.ca/dclubine/Qtank3.JPG

[Wolf]

I can't speak for Pleco John but that is what happened to my fish. I lost one nice Heckel because of it too. I always have to learn the hard way it seems.

[PLECO JOHN]

Yes , this is exactly what two of my six look like and the two that died. What to do next. I still have four of six that appear healthy, although one is a Rded Panda and another is a Bright Red Marlboro so I imagine that the beginnings of this disease may be harder to detect.....Did I mention manage a pet shop, so if there is anything common that I can get from my store Let me know so I can get treatment started...... THANKS GUYS/GIRLS........PLECO JOHN

Did you read the link? I treated these fish with heat & salt and they were fine. I was told this was Columnaris.

Dave

[PLECO JOHN]

Thanks Dave , SALT AND HEAT IT IS!!!!!!

just for your information, Cary of GLD (one of the most respected members here) firmly believes that there is no such thing as a "Discus Plague," but rather what happens is any number of diseases that get diagnosed as the plague. Every time a fish has gotten that sick and died, he's taken them in for biological testing and every time the disease was determined to be something else. You may want to give Cary a call, he'll be more than glad to diagnose your [fishies'] disease and tell you what to do as a treatment. Take that for what it's worth, but until someone can diagnosis what exactly causes discus plague and what the result is, i'm going to firmly believe that it's just any one of a number of diseases.
Brad

[Steve Rybicki]

Brad,

You may or may not be able to answer this, but I'll ask for anyone who can. Would the diagnostic lab be able to detect a virus if it were the cause?

Secondary and tertiary infections are common with fish that are sick. Could the lab determine if the diagnosis was a primary pathogen?

I'm not the best person to answer those specific questions, but I do have an answer that would satisfy the question. What i meant, was, that every time someone has taken a fish they thought had the Discus Plague to a pathologist, the cause of death was always FOUND to be some other virus/bacteria/protazoan/etc. So, there has never been a cause of death that was unidentifiable as something common, so there is no evidence of the existance of a discus plague. Do ya get what I"m sayin?
HTH
Brad

[EthanCote.com]

Perhaps this might clarify some things.

I have heard and read that Discus Plague is like HIV in humans. In that the HIV lowers our immune system and thus pathogens that are normally harmless to a healthy individuals can comprised the health of a person with HIV.

Same goes for those Discus with the Plague. It appears the Plague lowers the immune system of the fish and thus leaving it vulnerable to pathogens that are otherwise harmless.

Here was a thread I started way back when I first joined Simply that answer your question:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=4


Cheers,

Chi.

[PLECO JOHN]

I have to say that these most recent replies have me more than perplexed. If "Discus Plague" could be attributed to any one of of , lets say, 50 diseases/bacteria/parasite/protozoan/stress.......ETC. then how in the world can anyone tell me what a cure could be. I compare this to someone going to a 2nd century healer and saying , or grunting, "I'm Sick". Please don't take this wrong as I certainly am not trying to bite the hand that feeds me, and EVERYONE HAS BEEN GREAT!!!!! But how do you cure someone when you don't know what they have???
The common denominators that I've found in several articles seem to be salt, to slow down the disease path and Oxytetracycline as a cure. Has anyone had any experience with Tetracycline or Oxy-tetracycline??? .........AGAIN, I THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR INPUT AND COOPERATION. I'll let you know how 5 days of Maracide works..........PLECO JOHN

John,


lose the maracide alone. I highly recommend TC but not Oxy
I only use Oxy with copper sulphate but do not recommend this treatment to you!


Your best bet would be to double dose. treat daily.
change 50% water daily. And make sure Your tank is covered all the way and very clean before You start. first dose of tc will make Your discus Skittish. If a space is open on your tank in the morning expect to see a few Discus on the floor. I recommend double dose cause at regular dose most organism's are resitant to TC
another good choice would be neomycin or erythromycin.



Your best bet if able to ship would be sending a discus
to Mike mauel at veterinary dignostic and investigational laboratory to the university of georgia here's his # 229 3863340 tell him cary sent ya!


The cost is $20 a fish.
if your short on cash you could also go with craig banner
at the oregon department of fish and wildlife
OSU department of microbiology his fee is free.

both are highly recommended!
Other then that! Yes we are just guessing and most of the time we are right! just because we know whats been going on lately and what meds have been used susessfully.

Maybe If You email Me were you Bought the discus I might
be able to help you More. If you go with the docs they will
pinpoint your problem and a cure forsure without a guess. But this will take a week or so and sounds to me that time is something you do not have right now. If this helps it sounds mild to me and salt and maracide might work. If you have it use it! This will help keep secondary infections at bay.

Also Tc can be mixed with maracide and salt IMO a great combo.

hth
takecare'
cary gld!

P.S Bet you a breeding pair its not Plague ;D

[Steve Rybicki]

Like Chi., I was under the impression that if the fish had the plague, the cause of death was always a secondary infection. I was just curious if the labs have the ability to detect and identify the virus, if it existed.

Of course, without the lab you can never do more than treat the symptoms.

Cary, didn't the University of Georgia do some research into the virus a few years back? Do you know of any results of that research?

[EthanCote.com]

Osp the link I posted above didn't go to the post I wanted. Here is the link again. And Steve, I believe it will answer your question, just click to go to page 2 and read up on Mat's post.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=3196


Cheers,

Chi.

Hi Steve,
What are You doing here angelfish man? its been many years since we talked hope all is well.
Did You ever get any of your Discus strains going?


Anyways I know why Your here angelfish go through the same problems as discus do. I know that a while back angelfish breeders/ importers were thinking the same thing
PLAGUE.

I have heard all the debates over plague. Even Jack wattley claims once they have it they have it for life.
what I do not understand is how this could be. would'ent all the angelfish and discus of the word be inffected by now?


Well if this helps I may have some info for you that I could fax. You also ask in your above post will diagnostic lab be able to detect a virus if it were the cause? well from talking with mike this now can be done. the problem is identifing and treating. infact their are even new protozoan's that have been found on and in the Discus resembling
Cryptocaryon spp. if you look this up in any book or on the net they will tell you this is a salt water disease.

Steve come on you been breeding angels for 20 years.
you must have some insight to this. Did you lose any of your
stock when this hit back in the 80s? or was the problem
what I suspected it to be and no one sent discus or angels out to be tested? IMO I think a few did but many more did not and went with the flow. Not to mention that tecnology was not as good as today.

Viral disease
The word virus is latin for slime juice or poison!
it was often the genral name for All pathogen's today the name virus is restricted to pathogenic particles that are so small that they pass through filters that hold bacteria.

Viruses live on barrowed life for many are to small to maintain any metabolism of their own. they only are made up of a chemical shell that contains a gententic molecule (RNA)

when the virus touches a cell it attaches itself fimly to the wall and injects its (RNA) into the cell. The viral rna then takes over the cellular metabolism forcing it to produce new viruses which destory the cell. IMO There for you need a bacteria problem befor you have a virus problem.

HERE IS A LIST OF SOME VIRUSES THAT HAVE BEEN IDENTIFIED. not many at all and no plague.

lymphocystis
schaeperclaus
dropsy

Another thing I want to bring up was you asked or said you were under the impression that if the fish had the plague, the cause of death was always a secondary infection.
I do not see this possible with any good discus KEEPER BREEDER ETC... IME I know the first day when something is wrong salt is added right off the bat at 1 tbs per 10gals.
at this dose their will be no! secondary infection as long as its cought early. IMO I like to use a salt and Dye combo that will work well with any antibiotic.

Now for someone new yes I could see this happing.
the fish all dieing from secondary problems.

Ok to much I need to go their is still tons of work that needs to be done on this topic to say foresure every year they name a few and every year there are 10 more

HTH
TakeCare'
Cary Gld!

[Steve Rybicki]

Hi Cary,

I still have a few discus floating around, but nothing that I would take the time to work with. :(

My inquiry on this subject is more of a search for new information than to offer any insights on the problem. When a place like the University of Georgia has a few years to look into a problem, I figure what I have to say means little in comparison. ;)

I guess to know if we're even talking about the same thing, we would first have to define "plague". I have personally never had a virulent problem of any kind with my angelfish. I have known several close friends who did and I've talked to people almost on a daily basis for the past 15 years who have all kinds of problems with their fish. I have been in the fishrooms, seen the fish, recommended treatments and followed up on the results, but still most of my opinions have been formed on second hand information.

For me, symptoms mean little. Outward manifestations of many diseases are about the same. Also, whether the infected fish lives or dies, means little. Like you said, most experienced breeders and keepers are able to keep their fish alive, while most beginners will struggle no matter what the disease. I don't base the identification of a disease on whether a person can keep their fish alive.

There is only one area I can detect, that seems to suggest that there is more than one class of pathogens that can attack certain cichlids in this manner and cause massive sickness. I have noticed that most problems that appear bacterial are stopped and corrected within a 10 to 14 day period. Symptoms can be very "plague-like", and can kill fish readily if proper steps aren't taken. Improvement is noticable and steadily progressive.

I have also observed another disease process that is similar in nature, but will not respond for at least 3 weeks. This disease also does not appear to need medication to overcome the problem. The fish seem to just need the strength and the proper tank conditions to survive 3 weeks of little or no food and a lot of stress. It appears that at the end of that time, the fish's immune system will have taken over and suppress the pathogen enough for the fish to recover very radpidly. It then seemed to take several more weeks before the infected fish were no longer carriers. It also appears that the virus (or whatever) becomes inactive. This is the disease progression I refer to as the "plague". I know two local breeders who had this problem in the late 80's. Neither lost a single fish as I recall. They practiced superb fish husbandry and their fish were very strong. However, they did go through several weeks of agony, trying to figure out what to do. I use to see this type of disease progression very often in the late 80's to early 90's. I seldom see it now.

Fish problems are not like people problems and I don't think they can be easily compared to each other. First, we don't cull people or quarantine them for months at a time. If there was a fish viral problem, a world wide awareness of the problem could control it, using these techniques, in my opinion. I think that is what has happened.

Nothing scientific about any of this, just my observations and opinions formed over the years. I am not of the opinion that the plague is sure death for fish or that the fish is a carrier for many months or years. In my experience, it is a disease that will last about 3 weeks and will cause deaths in the cases where there are additional stresses on the fish.

Any new or additional insights into these types of diseases is appreciated. :)

I AGREE STEVE,

THANKS GOOD POST! ;)

[DISCUS STU]

I know I'm coming into the discussion 12 years later, but from my experience with this early on, sometime in the early 90's, the obvious symptons; darkening, thickened mucous coat sloughing off, holding one pectoral fin, heavy breathing, etc. may just be secondary bacterial infections by immune impaired fish resulting from lower than necessary water quality. Rule of thumb with Discus, the water can NEVER be clean enough, but at the same time using carbon seems to give my fish hole-in-the head!

I had this problem back then when I first started, sometime in the early 90's, and when the "Discus Plaque" was the new phantom menace that seemed to strike without warning also seemed to have no real cure. Not knowing much back then, there was no internet yet, I just did large daily water changes, lowered the ph to 6.0 or better yet 5.5, and think I added some kosher salt, I think 1 tablespoon per 10 gals. max. Even at that time when I was new to Discus I never lost a fish to it. I wish I could say the same for other Discus killers I've encountered over the years. Good luck to anyone who reads this, now or in the far future.

[pcsb23]

Holy thread revival batman!!

I've had many an interesting discussion regarding so called discus plague. I've helped a number of people with this too, both via the internet and also directly. I think that too many people call any illness with the generic signs described refer to it as plague, my opinion fwiw is that there is no such illness, in all cases it can be identified as either parasites or bacterial.

The use of carbon is another of those contentious issues, again often there is no need to use it, given that typically discus keepers change a lot of water. The tenuous link to hith is always worth exploring though, my view for those that use carbon in soft water is that the carbon adsorbs vital trace elements which impair the fishes ability to process calcium etc ...

[dirtyplants]

I agree with Paul, I think Costia would be much more likely scenario then the black plague. Your symptoms are very vague, aside from the milky whitish, color. Acriflavine (trypaflavine) copper, PP and formalin and salt have been used on Costia. Costia often resembles a virus in the way it manifests. California has reported strains which are more resistant to salt, and although often found in cooler waters, this flag (parasitic flagellates Costia necatrix and Ichthyobodo necatrix). does survive in warmer waters and can be devastating in a closed environment. Also does not die if tanks are dried or nets dried so very easy to cross contaminate. Remember you are guessing on viruses or parasites without scope identification. My first guess without scoping would be some exterior parasite.

[nc0gnet0]

I think that too many people call any illness with the generic signs described refer to it as plague, my opinion fwiw is that there is no such illness, in all cases it can be identified as either parasites or bacterial.

I agree with this statement in part, but the discus plague does exist, and has been identified as a viral disease (KHV identified by the UFL). Or at least that is what I understand when we refer to the plague (don't know where the black part came from). As for the often misidentified portion of the statement, I agree whole heatedly.

-Rick

[Allwin]

By seeing the 12yrs old picture,looks bacterial infection. PP/formalin would have been my best option in this case(imo), either hit or miss and deal with the survivors later. Since, i consider PP as both internal/external treatment. Internal refers something like chemotherapy. Just learning, what you guys started to treat with?

[pcsb23]

To the best of my belief KHV has not been found in discus, only Koi and other carp. It is a notifiable disease in the UK, meaning if anyone gets an outbreak of it in their fish they must notify the appropriate authorities, failure to do so results in severe penalties. For the hobbyist that means that there are lists available where the disease has occurred, which helps in determining susceptible species. According to DEFRA (the government authority responsible for this in the UK) they report that

Susceptible species
Currently, KHV infections have only been recorded in common carp Cyprinus carpio and its different varieties (mirror, leather, koi, ghost koi, etc). It would be a nightmare if KHV did make the jump or mutate into something that can. Currently there is no known cure and it often results in 100% mortalities.

Discus, like most other fish, are susceptible to virus infections, but the symptoms of viral infections are quite different ime to those that often get described as "discus plague". That is why I don't believe in a specific illness that can be called "discus plague", it is at best a generic description imo, at worst it conjures up scenes of devastation and often leads people into panic measures.

I don't think the phrase will ever go away, I know of many discus resellers/dealers/breeders who still use it, yet when I ask them about it I normally get a "Well I don't really know ... " type answer. I wish I had the funds and the facilities to properly research this, that would be one way of determining the reality once and for all, but as things stand I don't.

There are a few older threads on here where people have started off by fearintg "the pague" was at work, yet the symptoms can all be attributed to known factors. An extreme example of one situation I was able to help with was a particular discus reseller and breeder who called me one Sunday a few years back, in a blind panic, stating his discus had the plague and that he thought he was going to lose all of them ... iirc it would have been around 40 pairs, 1,500 adults and juveniles. I went round to his place, 90% of his stock were dark, shedding slime coat, gilling, lethargic etc ... whilst the water tested up ok, you could smell that there was something amiss - the extra bioload in the water from the shed slime I suspect, in a large fish room that was warm and humid made it's presence felt (or smelt) ;) Apparently all was well on the Friday before ...

When he showed me into his fishroom, his comment to me was "See it's plague - I'm going to lose everything!".

Long story short, I moved his air pump outside, he ran a centralised air system. We did a few water changes, as much as we could. I added a bactericide treatment and a few days later all the fish were recovering. He did have a few losses, but only a handful of fish, but given his fears, that was a small price. It also cost a few live fish which were sent away for assay, basically there were a number of bacterial pathogens present, and iirc no specific culrpit could be identified (from memory there were aeromonas and psuedomonas bacteria present, it was a while ago and I no longer have access to the info). By the time the vet visited the "plague" was under control and he advised continuing with the treatment for a period of time. I did use a microscope and didn't find any parasites, I could see what may have been bacteria at extreme mag (1000x), but no chance of id'ing them with an ordinary scope. Ruling out parasites helped though.

I think because the fish go dark, that the name "black plague" has sometimes been coined. Discus go black for a number of reasons, usually bacterial infection ime, but often it can be a parasite like costia. A lot also depends on the strain of the fish, those yellow based from golden genes rarely go dark ime, and the same applies to albinos (many have the golden gene). PB's also can stay pale ... makes the job of diagnosing a nightmare at times.

[Allwin]

Excess slime/eye darkening/pale on pb's/albino ime but not body darkening.


A lot also depends on the strain of the fish, those yellow based from golden genes rarely go dark ime, and the same applies to albinos

[John_Nicholson]

Agree completely. Also wanted to add that if you really want to get the latest on disease prevention and cure then come to NADA. We will once again have the U of F there to give us the absolute latest in this area.

-john


I agree with this statement in part, but the discus plague does exist, and has been identified as a viral disease (KHV identified by the UFL). Or at least that is what I understand when we refer to the plague (don't know where the black part came from). As for the often misidentified portion of the statement, I agree whole heatedly.

-Rick

[yim11]

When Dr. Petty (UFL) spoke at the 2012 show, one thing the Univ was very excited about was the ability to test for the herpes virus that causes plague within 24 hours. As I recall they had only confirmed 3 or 4 cases of plague in discus in the US total.

[nc0gnet0]

To the best of my belief KHV has not been found in discus, only Koi and other carp. It is a notifiable disease in the UK, meaning if anyone gets an outbreak of it in their fish they must notify the appropriate authorities, failure to do so results in severe penalties. For the hobbyist that means that there are lists available where the disease has occurred, which helps in determining susceptible species. According to DEFRA (the government authority responsible for this in the UK) they report that
It would be a nightmare if KHV did make the jump or mutate into something that can. Currently there is no known cure and it often results in 100% mortalities.

Discus, like most other fish, are susceptible to virus infections, but the symptoms of viral infections are quite different ime to those that often get described as "discus plague". That is why I don't believe in a specific illness that can be called "discus plague", it is at best a generic description imo, at worst it conjures up scenes of devastation and often leads people into panic measures............

.. makes the job of diagnosing a nightmare at times.

Paul, just to clarify:

1) Your absolutely correct on the term "discus plague" being used as a catch all phrase.
2) Khv or at least a mutated and or closely related version of the herpes virus has been identified in Discus, a presentation was made by the UFL at NADA 2012 stating as such. Why it has not been published yet I do not know.
3) It was my understanding that when we referred to the Discus plague, this is now what we considered as the cause. It would be equally correct to say that the Herpes virus has been identified in discus, give it it's own name and go on to say the Discus plague does not exist, but in some cases the herpes virus would/could be responsible for "plague like symptoms".

As for no known cure, it was my understanding that researchers in Israel had some limited success using high heat(with koi) for extended periods of time (over 30 days temps in the mid to upper nineties etc). Also, I had thought they had developed a vaccine as well, but I could be wrong on this part (it's been awhile).


-Rick

[pcsb23]

When Dr. Petty (UFL) spoke at the 2012 show, one thing the Univ was very excited about was the ability to test for the herpes virus that causes plague within 24 hours. As I recall they had only confirmed 3 or 4 cases of plague in discus in the US total.I can find no reference to any discus being confirmed with KHV (or a mutated version) - I truly hope they were wrong! A KHV type outbreak could be devastating. It wouldn't surprise me to find that a herpes type virus existed though (humans carry such a virus - herpes simplex - root cause of cold sores amongst other things ;))


Paul, just to clarify:

1) Your absolutely correct on the term "discus plague" being used as a catch all phrase.
2) Khv or at least a mutated and or closely related version of the herpes virus has been identified in Discus, a presentation was made by the UFL at NADA 2012 stating as such. Why it has not been published yet I do not know.
3) It was my understanding that when we referred to the Discus plague, this is know what we considered as the cause. It would be equally correct to say that the Herpes virus has been identified in discus, give it it's own name and go on to say the Discus plague does not exist, but in some cases the hepres virus would/could be responsible for "plague like symptoms".

As for no known cure, it was my understanding that researchers in Israel had some limited success using high heat(with koi) for extended periods of time (over 30 days temps in the mid to upper nineties etc). Also, I had thought they had developed a vaccine as well, but I could be wrong on this part (it's been awhile).


-Rick
I wonder of the Uni hasn't published because they cannot verify? As I said above I truly hope that is the case and that KHV hasn't crossed over. I've seen the decimation it causes to Koi keepers stock, and the majority of them exercise better bio security than the vast majority of discus keepers do (no offence intended).

The thing with any Koi (or other carp) that survives KHV is, according to the info I have available, they remain as carriers. A vaccine only prevents koi catching it, it won't cure them. Interestingly the info I have suggest that an outbreak takes place between 15 and 28C, so maybe high temps will cure it, but I suspect that they still remain carriers.

"Plagues" in history have to the best of my knowledge all been bacterial in nature, so if it is true that KHV has crossed over plague would be wrong in the pedantic sense, but it surely would be a plague in the metaphoric sense. What a scary thought.

Some of the symptoms of KHV in carp are not what is typically described as plague in discus:
KHV Symptoms lethargic or erratic behaviour, loss of balance, loss of mucus resulting in dry rough patches, sloughing of mucus, and sunken eyes. Gills are most frequently affected displaying necrotic patches of dead tissue, often with secondary infection of bacteria and fungi.
It is the dry rough patches and necrotic gills that seem to differentiate here as the discus in most cases shed and continue to shed slime coat and so far no one I know of has described any necrotic gills. Generally viral infections I've had experience of in discus tend to cause the fish either to swim erratically (same as KHV), or generally just decline. In some cases they develop nodules or nodes on their skin and fins (e.g. Lymphocystis). When the fish start to decline they become open to secondary infections, so I guess necrosis could set in, which is again similar to KHV, but KHV specifically affects the gills.

I'd love to see the research papers from the Uni if and when they make them available. I think we need to be very careful when talking about this, it would be too easy for some to get things out of context and start stating our views/opinions as facts.

[nc0gnet0]

Fair enough, iirc correctly, the association with the term plague and khv stared with a post from Hans asking for donations for the UFL to research the cause of the "discus plague". Then when the presentation was made at NADA 2012 (I was not there but followed it closely as I am quite aware of everything you said regarding koi and KHV, and the devastation it can wreak) the end result of this research was the discovery of khv in discus.

This is how I came to understand the association between the two (khv & discus plague). I see your point in it's classification, I tried to say as much in my earlier posts, but struggle with finding the right words.

As for the verification that it was in fact khv, I will defer to the ones that were in actual attendance. I for one surely will have a few questions for them in regards to this matter when at NADA 2014.

-Rick

[John_Nicholson]

Paul you will get your chance to find out all about it in June....

-john

[nc0gnet0]

My correlation came from this post:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?88777-Money-needed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!&highlight=university

[pcsb23]

Fair enough, iirc correctly, the association with the term plague and khv stared with a post from Hans asking for donations for the UFL to research the cause of the "discus plague". Then when the presentation was made at NADA 2012 (I was not there but followed it closely as I am quite aware of everything you said regarding koi and KHV, and the devastation it can wreak) the end result of this research was the discovery of khv in discus.

This is how I came to understand the association between the two (khv & discus plague). I see your point in it's classification, I tried to say as much in my earlier posts, but struggle with finding the right words.

As for the verification that it was in fact khv, I will defer to the ones that were in actual attendance. I for one surely will have a few questions for them in regards to this matter when at NADA 2014.

-RickYep, I re-write loads of times to try and make sense, doesn't happen too often ;) The thought of something that may have no cure, is easily transmitted and is usually fatal to discus just scares the heck out of me. I think discussions like this are incredibly useful and valuable though.


Paul you will get your chance to find out all about it in June....

-johnHope so John :)


My correlation came from this post:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?88777-Money-needed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!&highlight=universityThanks for that.

[dirtyplants]

Now don't put your hope yet that they can come up with a cure, it's still far from that. Although they are working on publishing this work, they can offer a diagnostic test that can determine within 24 ~ 48 hours if a Discus has the plague.


This is very interesting, but I am still having problems with a virus being diagnosed by a diagnostic test. Since viruses can not be seen by a light scope, and diagnostics complicated by secondary causes I fail to see how a test can be developed. Perhaps with a electron virus detection can be compiled but the use of a scope would not be adequate for the testing of a virus, and how many have access to an electron scope. I do wish I could be there, NADA, as much of this conversation interests me considerably, I would love to hear much more about viruses within fish.

[nc0gnet0]

Using an electron microscope for virus detection would be painstakingly slow, not to mention expensive. I am quite sure this is not how they are doing it, but rather they are searching for protein markers would be my guess.

-Rick

[dirtyplants]

That makes more sense thanks Rick.

[DonMD]

Discus, like most other fish, are susceptible to virus infections, but the symptoms of viral infections are quite different ime to those that often get described as "discus plague". That is why I don't believe in a specific illness that can be called "discus plague", it is at best a generic description imo, at worst it conjures up scenes of devastation and often leads people into panic measures.

I don't think the phrase will ever go away,

An extreme example of one situation I was able to help with was a particular discus reseller and breeder who called me one Sunday a few years back, in a blind panic, stating his discus had the plague and that he thought he was going to lose all of them ... iirc it would have been around 40 pairs, 1,500 adults and juveniles. I went round to his place, 90% of his stock were dark, shedding slime coat, gilling, lethargic etc .

We did a few water changes, as much as we could. I added a bactericide treatment and a few days later all the fish were recovering.

I think because the fish go dark, that the name "black plague" has sometimes been coined. Discus go black for a number of reasons, usually bacterial infection ime, but often it can be a parasite like costia.

The dreaded symptoms described by pcsb came to pass in my main display tank last week. Ugh. My fault, I cross contaminated from a community angel tank in another part of the house. I feared the plague, especially as I had heard other very respected and experienced discus breeders and importers use it. But I read this post, and decided my case was identical. I went with Furan-2. UNBELIEVABLE recovery! I did cull four of the worst fish, but all my others, including some prized home-bred and raised red turqs, look better than ever. I did two back-to-back treatments. I added the underlining and bold in the original post above.

I know this is a very old post, but that's the value of these old posts. Great advice.