Help! Fish hanging at top

[rsawest]

Help! Just got a call from my Dad, who doesn't have internet access, with this problem.

72 gallon established tank with 10 discus, varying sizes.

Filtration is 2 Penguin 440, one established, the other new. 1 large hydro sponge, cycled.

ph is 7.6 ammonia is 0.

fish are listless, hanging at the top. usually very agressive eaters, but now just picking at food.

Last water change on Monday, about 25%.

Water change routine was changed from once a week to twice a week, about 25%.

Feeding routine used to be lots of beefheart, about 4 times a week. Change to beefheart once a week, more flakes and tetra bits with occasional bloodworms.

The only thing I can think of is that the hydro sponge hadn't been squeezed out in a long time, water was black. He squeezed out the sponge too much, losing the bacteria?
But wouldn't the Penguin440 with established bio wheels and sponges as inside media make up for this?

I thought it may be an ammonia spike because of the loss of bacteria, but the test says 0. I don't think the water change routine was that drastically changed. I've always believed that more water changes (not too drastic) were good for discus. Would another water change help?

What do you think? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks.

[jeep]

It could be a bacteria bloom (from squeezing the filter out???). Even if it's not, I would do some water changes soon. 25% twice tonight or 50% once and do another w/c tomorrow.

Good luck,

Brian

hey,
tell him to just waterchange, waterchange, and waterchange. Also, tell him to add 1 tbs. non-iodized salt per 10 gallons and bump the temp up a little. The salt helps w/ stress and the heat speeds up the metabolism. They may be sick, are there any other signs such as white, stringy feces or bloated stomachs?
Good Luck,
Brad

[EthanCote.com]

Hi Linda,

I'm sure everyone will agree with me on this...YES, do the WC now. As you probably already know, daily WC is recommended but not always the case.

If daily WC is not feasible, in your dad's case, I think he can benefit more with at least 2 or 3 times a week WC reasons being:
- 10 Discus in a 72 gallon can be crowded (depending on size of fish, as you already know, recommended is 1 adult fish/10 gallon)
- it appears he feeds his Discus quite often daily (if I am correct, he is making 4 daily feedings)
- beef heart are rather messy and can cloud water if feed too much
- less WC=more build up of toxic chemicals in the tank


What is the temperature? Higher temp=less dissolved oxygen

I think a WC will greatly alleviate the problem he is experiencing now.

Just my two cents. I wish him luck.


Cheers,

Chi.

[allan_mark76]

I would do another large water change since you said the water looked black. Do another one at 50% the next day and make sure the water is propery airated. Does it look like your discus are gasping for air at the top??? If so they are not breathing correctly and need more airation in the water. Could also be a bacterial bloom as jeep said. WC WC WC WC + SALT SALT SALT ! ! ! Also let the water settle for a bit 2-3 hours and check all the water parameter. Hope this helps.

A- ;D

[EthanCote.com]

Hi Linda here is a link you can go and check out:
http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/disease/clinicalsigns.htm

Scroll down to the part where it say:
"Several fish are lethargic. Fish are not eating or eating very little.
Fish are skittish and shy. Some fish may have split or ragged fins"


I hope that helps.


Cheers,

Chi.

[jeep]

I think the w/c are the best way to start. Everyone stresses w/c at 50% per day. I do not do that ONLY because i have 2 fish in my 55g tank. If I had as many as you (or your dad) I would do much more just to get rid of all the junk.

Fish waste products are not the only thing you have to deal with in an aquarium. When you establish an aquarium, you establish an ecosystem. Fish are not the only hungy critters in there. You have bacteria up to planaria up to your fish. Nature corrects over population of the smaller and more dangerous organisms. How? by changing the water!

From what I've learned, your fish are not in serious danger (unless there is a real illness developing). W/C and salt will do a good job.

Chi, that's a great link!

Brian

[rsawest]

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I just got off the phone with him and told him to do a waterchange now, and one tommorrow, bascially everyday throught early next week, using salt.

From your answers, it seems that he squeezed out the sponge too much; the black water was helping him keep the bacterial load down with his heavy feedings of beefheart.

I think I've convinced him to change water more than once a week, and cut down on the beefheart.



Thanks again.

[korbi_doc]

:bounce2: If they're hangin' at the top, add airstones fast, & lower the water level so the water dropping in from filters has a longer drop & aerates the water........JMO Dottie :o :o

[Carol_Roberts]

Dottie is correct! Fish aren't getting enough oxygen. Airstone and water cascading into tank will add oxygen.

Either not enough oxygen or maybe chlorine burned gills - did he forget de-chlor product? that will kill filter fast too.
What about CO2 for plants? could also be problem.

Carol :heart1:

[April]

definitely id agree loss of oxygen. but usually from a high bioload. he should really check his other hang on back filter. there may be alot of gunk in the bottom. id say not squeeze them out completely as he just did the other one..but theres a good possibility theres tons of stuff on the bottom that needs to be gotten rid of. like old beeheart. that;d do it. swish and clean any gunk off the sponges. what i do is put my pump in the bottom of my aquaclear or siphon and siphon out any gunk. then put the sponges back in.
and definitely a large water change. and an aerator.
one other member here had the same problem and when she checked her aquaclear found out tons of stuff had gotten into it and once she cleaned out all the unbroken down waste...the fish were once again happy.
definitely more water changes with 10 discus in a 72 gallon. id go for 50 percent a day for a bit. then 25 percent a day at least if he can.
hope they are back smiling again. let us know.

[larry lob]

hi,

Can i also add that one person said add salt and INCREASE the temp... DO NOT INCREASE TEMP the higher the temp the more oxygen needed. the salt is right and the airation issue is to be looked at but did you also check NITRITE? a nitite spike is possible with filter maintanance and would also make the listless and head up to the top.

interpet no.9 anti internal is a good product for easing stress and making fish less listless also up that salt from 1tbl spoon per 10g to 2 table spoons per 10g

hope this helps and check the nitrite.

Larry

[Mike_T]

IMO, feeding beefheart 4 Xs a day and changing water 25% once/week will create a good environment for parasites and bacteria. I would cut down on the beefheart feeding a little and up the water changes alot.

Mike T 8)

[rsawest]

Thanks for all the continuing advice. It's helpful, and I really appreciate it.

I may have not been clear in my initial message.

He doesn't feed beefheart 4x a day but 4 x a week. Nonetheless, it's still a lot of beefheart for only one 25% w/c per week. I think he's changing his feeding routine and using less beefheart and more flakes, pellets, and bloodworms.

The oxygen question is interesting. He does have one large hydro sponge connected to an air pump, so there seems to be enough oxygen. Though, with the bacterial bloom and or high nitrites, this could change. I think he said that the fish were listless and fins slightly clamped.

I haven't had a chance to talk to him today, but I'll let you know what's going on.

Thanks.

[redlines]

Linda,

For a 72 Gal tank with 10 fish it would be better if he had 2 Hydrosponges going not just one. IMO there is deffinately not enough oxygen input & he would benefit with more filtration too.

In my 65 Gal I have a Hydro 5 & Hydro 4, PLUS two airstones AND an old Wisper filter filled with sponge too. The Discus seem to like a little bit of current.

In my 29 Gal I have a Hydro 4 & one airstone. In my 50 2 Hydro 4 & 1 airstone & an old Penguin with a sponge.

Regards,

Andy

[rsawest]

I spoke to my Dad earlier today. The fish are much better. He's done the w/c's and put in another sponge from his other tanks.

Once again, thanks for all the advice.

[Steve_Warner]

Hi all,
Linda, a few things to think about. The seasons are changing as is the water supplies......did the local water supplier co. add in some treatment chemicals that are NOT added in the warmer months due to changing water storage levels? Also, the ADDITION of ANY minerals, including Sodium(salt), will DECREASE the water's peak saturation potential to hold Oxygen, as will increased temps., as will elevation. Bac. blooms will rob the water of it's Oxygen too, as some have stated. Co2 elevated levels will inhibit respiration as well, but it sounds like that is NOT a problem in his tank. Any chemicals used in the house recently(ammonia, kitchen cleaners, paint, etc.)? They can enter the water through the airpump! Increase aeration AND surface agitation and keep water clean. HTH

Steve
I almost forgot one more thing........the addition of some meds(Formalin for example) also reduces the Oxygen content in the water.