Question of numbers....

[b3dlam]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post... :)

I have a planted aquarium (8x2x2). I am filtering with 2 x Eheim 2026 cannisters. The water parameters are as follows:
dkH = 4
dGH = 4
pH = 6.8 - 6.9
Nitrates = 5-10ppm (added daily).
Phosphates 0.1ppm (added daily).

It has 100 cardinals, 12 SAE, 12 otos, 2 mollies and 2 L. curviceps.

Lighting = 3 x 150watt MH, 2 x 40watt FL. Photoperiod of 10hrs total.

I would like to put in 4 discus (variety unknown at the moment) in the tank. I am not looking to breed them. The question I have is this:

1. Will 4 discus be enough to make them feel 'safe'?
2. I am doing 25% water changes per fortnight. Can I continue with this regime?
3. If the fishes I buy are 3-4in, will 2 feedings per day suffice?
4. What is the minimum temperature you would recommend?

Any suggestions you might have would be greatly appreciated. A pic of my tank is posted here: http://www.pbase.com/image/7581862

Thanks!!
;D

[RealFish]

You are probably going to get a lot of disenters here. This is a feed heavyand change a lot of water crowd. Oh, and don't forget bare bottom.

With that size tank, I would try to go for 6-8 dicus. Four is usually a pretty small group. I woud get them in the 4 inch plus side. It is pretty difficult to feed them too heavily in a planted tank without getting to much algae because of the uneaten food. Two times a day will work, but not for juvenilles who are growing.

I would try to change water more often and vacuum up as much of the uneaten food as possible. I have generally lived on once a week and have not had problems.

My biggest concern is the metal halides. That is extremely bright for discus. I had VHOs on my tank and need to take a bulb or two out before the fish felt comfortable.

[Mattzilla]

your tank is beautiful :o :o :o :o :o :o. that type of tank makes me realise why some people wnat to have planted tanks. good luck with the discus. ;D

[Ralph]

Welcome to Simply!
Saw your tank and I like it a lot, actually I'm completely jealous of an eight foot long tank.
My version of answers:
1) I've seen opinions as to the minimum number of discus necessary to provide a comfort level vary between three and six. Younger discus would lean more toward six. A planted tank may mean less would be OK (this is strictly my guess and not based on any evidence). There are other variables but four is probably fine.
2) Discus have very "clean" water in their habitat and the closer you can get to that, the better it will be for your discus. I think at the very least, you want to go to a 25% change per week. Some people here do 50% per day!
3) Opinion runs about 10 to 1 against raising discus in a planted tank (I know that wasn't your question). The general feeling is that you run a greater risk of sickness and stunted fish. Now that we got that out of the way, two feedings would be fine for adult discus but youngsters need around four if possible. Smaller stomachs and greater need due to growth means food more often. Some people use auto feeders.
4) Anything less than 82 degrees F will likely mean stressed discus and young discus would do better at a minimum of 86 degrees. Make sure that your discus tankmates and plants can handle the higher temps.

Great questions, I probably left out some good info though. Somebody will no doubt add to this.
Keep reading and posting questions, I'm going back to check out your website.

[b3dlam]

Hey Realfish! I was just hoping that 4 would be sufficient... :) Didnt want to crowd them in the tank...

dooper: glad you like it :)...its in the living room, so a bare discus tank wouldnt have gone down too well with my gf... ;)

Thanks for the welcome Ralph ;D
Regarding the 'clean' water/tank part: My tank is using about 5ppm of nitrate per day. If I dont add Potassium nitrate, my plants start to deteriorate... I am not sure what is meant by clean water? low nitrate? high mV/redox? Is there any material i can read regarding this?

I was thinking about getting a food dispenser for the tank...but was going to dose chemicals with it...hehehe...but I will use it for food if required. ;D

The higher temperature is a bit of a concern....my tank is running at 25.5oC atm....was hoping it would only need to go up to 27oC max... I guess not many ppl here keep them that low....?

Thanks for the info....very much appreciated! Keep them coming!

:D

[Ralph]

Your driftwood looks planted. Did the wood come with the recesses or did you grind them out? And what planting medium did you use in the wood?
Also what substrate do you have?

[b3dlam]

Ralph

the driftwood had the void spaces when i bought them.... took me a long time to find the ones i was looking for... :) There are no planting medium on the wood. I placed some java fern on the wood, and after a week or so, they stuck and spread like wildfire... Java is pretty good in that respects, they dont need much nutrients and they take a lot of it from the water column..

I am using 3mm quartz (?) gravel. They dont have sharp edges on them. Laterite is used in the bottom third of the substrate layer. Its also using heating coils.

Just finished reading your post in the planted tank vs. bare bottom thread. Very good read! I am using a pH controller to ensure there is no shortage of carbon for the plants, so I cant really envisage pH crashes to occur...is this just hopeful thinking?

[Ralph]

I'm setting up a piece of driftwood with miniature chain swords growing on it, the wood hasn't sunk yet, updates to follow.
WCs are mainly to rid your tank of nitrates, solid waste from the fish, and uneaten foods. But it also removes ammonia, nitrites, hormones, liquid fish wastes, and some things we probably don't even know about. I do about 5% per day (35% per week) even though my nitrates always run 0 ppm. Theoretically, you probably could set up a tank that wouldn't require WCs but you would need a row boat to do tank maintenance.
Someone on the forum tried to keep their fish at 78 degrees but their fish got sick.
Like Realfish said, the forum is strongly in favor of BB tanks and heavy WCs. You are the first person to even admit to reading that post on planted vs. BB tanks.
I'd like to hear how the heating coils work out for you, I was going to try them but cost got in the way.

[b3dlam]

But it also removes ammonia, nitrites, hormones, liquid fish wastes, and some things we probably don't even know about.
This is why I posed the question of only 4 discus for the tank.... I have 0 nitrogen based compounds (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) accumulating in my tank. All the nitrogen contributed by the fishes are consumed by the plants. Hence the need to add more KNO3... But you mentioned hormones?? Is it common practice to add hormones to promote growth/colour in discus?

A 25% wc per week is not really maintainable in my setup.... It takes me over 2.5hrs to do this waterchange...in addition to pruning the plants etc. Its not looking good for me atm, is it? ???


I'd like to hear how the heating coils work out for you, I was going to try them but cost got in the way.
Heating coils is a much debated topic, probably in the same region as BB vs. planted tanks. It borders on religious proportions... ;D
All I can say is it works for me. If you live in a climate where the room temperature is often lower than the tank temperature, the coils will work. With laterite, the small water flow from the water column to substrate (and vice versa) prevents anerobic regions (esp under driftwoods). It also helps to bind phosphates and acts as a chelating medium to allow rooted plants better access to iron and other nutrients. Personally, the logic behind the coils make sense.
It a 'nice to have' equipment, but it is noted to improve stablility and long term viability in planted tanks. In a nutshell, if you are strapped for cash, don't get them. There are other equipment that will be of more benefit to your planted tank. If you plan to totally change/uproot your tank on a frequent basis (<1yr), dont get them.... :)

hth..

[Ralph]

I came to the same conclusion on the heating coils, it would be nice but.....
Also, the climate here is such that I don't even use a heater for seven months a year, in fact I have to cool my tanks to keep them below 92 degrees during the summer.
I can't say that definately you need to do 25% WC per week. I've heard that Europeans get by with fewer WCs (and more planted tanks). And plants do remove nitrogen (in various forms) from the water. You might want to start with older discus though, lessening the chance of getting stunted or sickly fish, that's up to you of course.
A couple of things that you can do to reduce water problems: feed often (using small amounts of food - I try to keep food from hitting the gravel) with cleaner foods (live foods, flakes, and some frozen foods). Also instead of doing one large water change bimonthly, I vacuum out a gal or so everyday. This keeps decomposing solid waste and uneaten food to a minimum.
A planted discus tank is do-able but it is a commitment to extra work (especially an 8' long planted show tank!!!).
Oh...the hormone thing, the fish put out the hormones, mostly I guess as a communication thing, probably as part of mating, fry raising, maybe pecking order and growth inhibiting hormones. There doesn't seem to be a lot of research done on this yet. It's a big subject all by itself.

100 cardinals, what kind of behaviors do you see, do they school always, is there a pecking order? I have 20 rummynose in my tank, I watch them as much as I do my discus. You got me thinking about a bigger tank (again) with 100 rummies, that would be amazing.

[b3dlam]

If seven months of the year is warm, then it wouldnt make much sense to get the coils.... There is a cheaper alternative though...Dupla makes smaller wattage coils which is designed only to warm the substrate and just enough circulation to prevent anerobic zones. Its called Dupla Thermik i think.

The long term well-being of the inhabitants is definitely a priority for me. There is nothing worst than sickly fish in a tank....not to mention cruel. Hence the numerous questions i am posing...hehehe...:D

Cardinals do school...but not all the time. They enjoy swimming the whole length of the tank against the filter outflows...quite spectacular! They also lose the need to school when they feel very comfortable and safe with their surroundings. No pecking order. When I prune or uproot plants or if the curviceps have spawned, the cardinals also start to school together. Rummy noses are better in this respect i think....

A friend might be able to get me some 'mango' coloured' discus... I will post some pics once I see them....

:)

[April]

b3dlam...now that is a very nice tank. even if my discus have a bare bottom tank.!!!'

[b3dlam]

Thanks April... :)

Do you have any opinion with my proposed maintenance regime?

[dm]

Another thing to consider if you are going to put Discus in a heavilly planted tank without daily water changes is to get the largest fish possible to start with. With your setup they might not grow as big as they would otherwise. Large planted showtanks are not usually used until the Discus are adults. In your tank the begger the Discus the better they will look. nice job!

[b3dlam]

hey dm,

Thanks for the heads up... but i am afraid you are too late... ::) I already bought 4 leopard snakeskin discus this morning...sigh...

i plan to feed them about 3 times a day. A automatic food dispenser will be purchased soon. Here is a pic of the discus in the lfs tank...

http://www.alphalink.com.au/~oafi/livest2.jpg
They are still very young, but i thought they were showing a fair bit of colour. What are your thoughts?

btw, i set the tank temp to 27.6 deg (82deg F). If the fish show signs of distress, i will increase it slightly.

[Harriett]

Hi, all. I have been a dedicated 'lurker' for months but I'm getting heat from Cary to come out from under my rock so here I am! Just wanted to add 2 cents; I have a 6 x 2 x 2 tank and started doing discus at the beginning of this summer. I have a pretty similar planted tank, and was concerned about fouling the tank faster with uneaten food, so here's what I did and it works beautifully: when my dsicus were still in QT, I trained them to eat from one of those 2 dollar feeding cones you can buy at the lfs (with the suction cup that attaches it to the tank wall). I enlarged the holes in the bottom 25% of the cone quite a bit and feed exclusively from them--when I put the discus into the 180g tank, I put another one in there and they automatically go to it when I feed (or when they are begging). Because it's at the top and they feed at their own pace, the food sort of stays in it until they knock it out...discus feed at the top, and the SAEs, cories, etc hang out below them and get the rest--heirarchy of discus decides who feeds right off the cone and who is hanging just under it for the extra. It ends up with everybody fed and NO food left to ro or end up in the filter system...if anything gets to the gravel, it's quickly eaten because it stays in a finite area and the cories just wait to clean up...very polite. I hung the feeder in a corner with the lowest 'current' in the tank. Too many fish? I just hung another one about 10 inches away and everybody goes to where there's the least competition--so the bullies don't keep the smaller or less dominant fish from getting their fill also.
Best regards,
Harriett in Chicago
There, now I've made the leap!

[Don_Lee]

Good to see you Harriett, keep on posting!

Don ;D

[Ralph]

Hi Harriett,
Good problem solving skills! What kind of foods do you use in the feeders? I actually have one already that I haven't used yet.
I use a similar method. I only feed floating or slowly sinking foods. My fish are in four layers, hatchets at the top, discus, rummy nose tetras, and then cories on the bottom. I've never had a blackworm hit the gravel.
What kind of cories do you have?

[b3dlam]

Thanks harriett... ;D

Very good idea.

I am using the feeder cone for frozen food but never thought about using it for the dried stuff!! I will certainly try it out.

The discus are starting to eat now....tetrabits and frozen foods...woo hooo!!! ;D They dont know what to make of the feeder cone...i think they are scared of it. Though I am sure they will get used to it.

I know I did bad by not having a quarantine tank ::) ......but they are the only discus have/will I put in there.... knock on wood...

Thanks again!
;D

[ChloroPhil]

Wow b3dlam that's a great tank, I bet your fish love you! I'm getting all sorts of inspiration looking at the pics.

Aside from those insanely long water changes how's maintenance on that monster?

[b3dlam]

Hey Bio,

Those discus better love me....lol....conditional love...lol

*cough*
ok...
Maintenance....hmm.... The discus are eating a lot: 4 frozen cubes and tetrabits (this is about 2.5 times the amount i used to feed the fishes).... I have been trying to feed them 4 times a day. I am hoping this will be ok, and that their growth won't be stunted too much. The amount of faeces is not yet noticeable. I will do my first waterchange this Saturday (10%). Might repeat again on Sunday.
Just looking for a plastic water drum (25% of tank vol) so I can age my water. Time will tell if this will get too much.... ::)

[ZaPPPa]

Harriett,

I do something similar, just more natural.

I put a cube of frozen food on top of my drift plant (ceratoptheris thalictroides, narrow leaf). When is slowly defrosts, parts of the food will start to sink and the discus move in and eat it. When they are really hungry they'll start head-butting the drift plant and more food will come down. Kind of like a natural food-dispenser isn't it 8) ?.

It works beautifully for mosquito-larvea and even beef-heart pieces.