Turned Dark, Clamped Fins and White Spots

[discusluvr]

Hi all,
I need help in identifying disease/curing my newly acquired Discus.
I purchased two red turk (I think they're) on Tuesday (the fish arrived to LFS on Monday). 1 is doing really well and the other seems to have problems described below.

Physical condition of the fish
1. visible parasites (describe)
No
2. stringy feces
No
3. head standing
No
4. bloated/ constipated
No.
5. Hole in the head, lateral line erosion
No
6. spots, salt like flecks, velvety appearance,cotton like growths etc.
Whittish spots on side, back and upper fins.
7. excessive slime production
No
8. labored breathing, disfunctional gill
No
9. cloudy eyes
No
10.darkened color
Yes
11. faded color
No
12. other unusual changes...
Fish seems to be itcy, frayed fins

Water parameters
1. pH?
7.4
2. Temperature
85
3. hardness?
Nitrite/Nitrate very low. 0 Amonia
4. conductivity?
How to measure??
5. TDS?
Not sure about this one either
6. R/O (reverse osmosis) filtered, or Tap (well or chlorinated city water), rain water
Tap water conditioned with Amquel and NovAqua
7. Water change regime? ( example .. 30 % daily, weekly monthly etc)
50% Daily
8. appearance (cloudy, green , clear, yellowish etc)
Clear
9. Odor (smells clean or sulfur-lit match smell-anaerobic indicator)
Smell Clean

Tank parameters
1. Size in gallons/liters?
20 Gallon
2. Substrate.? (bare glass, gravel, sand..)
Gravel, but removed it this morning (bare from now on)
3. Planted?
1 live plant, 2 plastics
4. Drift wood?
No, is it better to have driftwood on discus tank?

Filter types
1 Wet/dry?
yes, with 2 Biowheel
2. Canister?
No
3. hanging box( aquaclear whisper etc)?
Same as the above
4. sponges?
No
5. supplimental Peat filter?
No
6. supplimental air?
Yes, 1 air stone
7. Carbon, resin exchanges, ammo-chips etc
Just removed carbon from filter yesterday

Lighting( Important for algae problems and plant growth)
1. Hood
Yes
2. bulb type size, watts, spectrum (ex 5000K daylight)
Got a light, but not sure
3. light/dark cycle (number hours on/off)
Just turned it on when it's feeding time

General….
1. Diet(what and how often do you feed you fish?
Live tubifex worm
2. Other tank occupants than discus?
1 small Panda Cory
3. How many Discus in your tank?
3, 2.5 inches each
4. How long have you had them?
1 turk for over 1 week, the other 2 from this past Tuesday
5. Where did you get them (breeder/ Local Fish Shop -LFS)
LFS
6. Tank and filter cleaning schedule?
Daily water change of 50%
7. Medications/ salt treatments recently used or tried to treat this problem?
I've tried raising the temp to 90, but the fishes went crazy so I droped it back to 85. Add salt 1 teaspoon per 2 Gallon a couple of days ago, added back salt after each WC. Add 40 drops of met blue to the tank yesterday, had not added more after WC because condition seems not to improve. I have Nitrofura G at home, should I try it??

All my fishes are new, so I did not quarantine them seperately. I'm still puzzled because when I got the red turk, she seems to be OK. But, its situation seem to deteriote little by little. This morning, I noticed lost of appetite. She usually would eat the tubifex but only ate a couple this morning. She also become shy and try to hid when the other fed. I also noticed that the other healthy red turk is bullying the sick one. What should I do? I tries to feed them more food to curb the agression, is there a better way? I read that discus is better keep in a group of 6, but I have a small tank and don't want to overcrowd it. Also I don't want to introduce new fishes while there is a sick one. Hospital tank may be the other option, but I have very little space left.

Attached is photo of my fishes, it's not very clear, but I hope it can aid in finding cure for the sick one. The one on the left is the healthy one and the one on the right is the sick one.

Thanks in advanced for all your help and support.

KIM

[EthanCote.com]

Hi Kim,

Welcome to Simply.

From my limited experience in keeping Discus, it looks like there is several things going on in your tank.

First, it looks like the "salts like flecks" are ick. But it is odd to have ick at such a high temp. (85F). Ick can normally be cured by raising the temp but since you tried raising the temp, your Discus freaked out, I'll try with an Ick medication, either that, continue with the salt treatment, I believe it should help fight the Ick.

Secondly, the "cotton like growth" sounds like fungus.

Thirdly, I do not suggest feeding them "live tubifex". Tubifex are normally found in foul water condition and these conditions are a normally associated with bacterias and other nasties creatures. If you want to feed them live food try Clean Blackworms.

Fourthly, regarding the aggression, if it persist either placed the sick fish in a QT tank (if you can) or get a divider and separate the sick one from the bully. Since constant bully pressure will reduce her immune system.

Fifthly, how long have your tank been cycled before you added the fishes?


I do not know what I provided above help or not, but I'm sure someone more experienced will lend you a hand.

Wish you luck with your fishes and take care.


Cheers,

Chi.

[discusluvr]

Hi Chi,
Thanks for your fast response. Just curious. what drive u to the conclusion that she has ick? Behavioral?? I want to continue salt + heat treatment. Do you think my temp / salt need to be adjusted? I read that it's OK to increase salt to 1tablespoon / Gallon. What do u think? Howbout the met blue ?? Should I continue to use it? I assume treatment for Fungus are temp + salt too, right??

I just learned after I join the forum that live tubifex is not recomended for Discus. I'm planning to get some BlackWorm later, but my LFS only carry live Tubifex and my fisheds love them alot. Last nite, I tried frozen bloodworm, but only the healthy red Turk seemed a little interested. My main concern now is for the fishes to eat so that the sick one will get better and the other become less agressive. Is there anyway to sterilize Tubifex?

U made a good point on getting a tank seperator, thanks.

The 20G used to be a gold fish's tank. The gold fish was adopted by a close friend so I did 50% WC, added new carbon and heated the tank for 2 weeks before I added my first Discus.

Thanks again for helping.

Kim.

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Kim:
You have several things going on - let me see if I've read correctly.

This was a gravel filled tank with gold fish and a cory.

You removed the goldfish, left the cory and waited 2 weeks before adding discus. (Good bacteria may have died off with hardly any fish in tank for two weeks.) You have detectable levels of nitrIte?

After adding one discus you removed the gravel possibly stirring up lots of gunk. Lots of bad bacteria in tank - did this gunk get sucked into filter? have you rinsed filter media? (not bio wheels, leave them alone)

Then a week later you added two more discus? Bad number

Now they are picking on the weekest one, who has stopped eating and has fungus on fins and body?

So, you have a water quality problem and three discus in a 20 gallon.

You are doing several things correctly already. Keep up with the water changes, make sure the media inside the filters are rinsed in used tank water and free of debris. (not the bio wheels) Continuing adding a few tablespoons of salt per 10 gallons and replace with water changes. Leave the temp at 85/86 for right now. Throw out the carbon. I'd stop the meth blue. Get a divider. Wait a couple of days and see if things settle down or get worse . . . .
CArol :heart1:

[discusluvr]

Hi Carol,
Sorry, I didn't make myself clear on previous posting. The actual events are as follow:
1. My friend took the goldfish away, left with empty tank.
2. Did a 50% WC, cleaned filter media and left the tank empty for 10 days.
3. Bought a Turq Discus and put it into the empty tank
4. A couple days later, bought a small cory
5. Added 2 more Discus this past Tuesday.
6. Removed the gravel from the tank this morning, did 70% WC at the same time, did another 30% WC just now.
The nitrite level is at a safe level (very low is detected). I cjust hecked my fish, it is getting worse (more noticeable fungus). Will adding Nitrofura-G be helpful at this point??
Thanks,
Kim

[Carol_Roberts]

I hesitate to advise adding meds that might kill your filter. You may be trying to do too much all at once. Do you have about 10 tablespoons of salt in the tank now? If not add some more.

Do you have a prefilter on the intake of the filter - if not, you may have sucked alot of gunk into the filter when you took out the gravel.

I'd wait and see how they are tomorrow.

Buy a divider tomorrow.

Carol :heart1:

[discusluvr]

Hi again,
Cleaned my filter media yesterday. It did turn out with lots of gunk. Did 70% water change, put in divider and added salt to the tank. It seems like the fungus problem is getting worse, the wounded parts are all covered in cotton like tissues. The fish was able to move around slowly and still managed to have a couple worms tonite. Is antibiotic a good time now, or shall I wait a few days? I'm afraid it'll too late by then :(
In addition, my turq is now nipping on the healthy red turq, eventhough the red turq is larger in size. What should I do next? Please help :(
Thanks,
Kim

[Carol_Roberts]

Try furan 2
Carol :heart1:

[jeep]

I would stop the tubifex worm. Like Chi said, they are bad news (by my own experience). It sounds like a bacterial problem and high heat will amplify. Keep the temp around 82-85 and do the Furon 2 or Neomycin and continue W/C's.

Best of luck!!!

[discusluvr]

It's me again :)
I went to my LFS, they don't carry either Furon 2 or Neomycin. The owner suggested to treat using both MarOxy and Maracyn (Active Ingredient: Erythomiocyn). Did 50% WC before adding medication to the tank. Is anyone has any luck with MarOxy and Maracyn in treating bacteria/ fungus problems? It's a 5 days treatment, should I continue WC before adding them to my tank for the next 5 days? Responds would be appreciated.

Kim

[Carol_Roberts]

Sorry, I've not used either product, so can't advise you.
Carol :heart1:

[fcdiscus]

Hey Kim, Here is what I would do in your situation. Use the salt at 1 tablespoon per gallon. Do a daily 50% WC and replace removed salt. Before each WC, wipe the inside of the tank and all the things in the tank with a clean Handi-wipe or paper towel and rinse out the floss part of your filter. You can also use the Maroxy and Maracyn 2 at the suggested dosages. Do not worry too much if the fish do not eat too much, they need to feel better first. Get rid of the tubifex, and stay with the frozen blood worms. Buy some Tetra bits for future use. If the Cory is still in the tank, the salt will be rough on him, but???????? Also, keep the light on or off steadily. Putting it on for feeding just spooks them. If the room has i's own light, leave the light over the tank off. Give this a shot for a week, and we can take it from there. Frank

[brewmaster15]

HI Kim,
You've gotten some advice here. I think Frank summed up how I would treat the tank. My only caution is the The maracyn works mostly on one kind of bacteria...gram positive... many pathogenic bacterias are gram negative. If you don't see an improvement in a few days.... you may need to switch to something else.... like maracyn2.... which works on gram negative. The maker of these says they work well together, and can be dosed at the same time...they also say that the use of a hospitol tank is recommended, but that they should not effect your bio filter. To me ...that means they could affect your biofilter. So monitor your ammonia levels during treatments.

HTH,
al

[discusluvr]

Thank you all so very much. I'm keeping my finger crossed :) I'll keep you posted.

Kim

[discusluvr]

Hi Everyone,

Here is the condition of the fish:
1. It's color has really lighten up, but all stress bars are clearly visible.
2. The lower fins are badly deteriorated, I notice some of the light pinkish flesh on lower body.
3. Fungus problem is getting better, but noticed a couple long stringgy materials remains.
4.The breathing is getting heavy.
So my question is:
Is the fish on the right track to recovery? The MarOxy and Marycide treatment is for 5 days. Should I continue until there's no visible signs of diseases?

Happy thanks giving,
Kim

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi - I've been gone fo the holidays. It doesn't sound as if your discus has improved much. Are you checking ammonia levels in tank? The meds could be affecting biofilter. I see you haven't posted in a couple of days - any improvement?
CArol :heart1:

[discusluvr]

Hi Carol,
Hope you had a great holiday. The fish didn't survive. It passed away a couple of days ago. I guess you are right about the amonia. Anyway, I'm left with only two Discus and a cory in my 20G tank. I am still using the seperator to seperate the Discus so that the don't nip on each other. Is this a good idea? Or shall I add some more fishes so that they can form a small group?
Thanks,
Kim

[Carol_Roberts]

I'd leave the divider for now, let the tank settle down and regrow the bacteria bed then add more discus IF and only if you will be buying a larger tank soon. A 20 really isn't even big enough for a full grown pair. It's great to grow out six 2 inch babies for a while.
Carol :heart1:

[springbank21]

I have used mar oxy and the maracyn products with great sucess. Use them in conjunction with one another. Example USE MAR OXY,MARACYN, + maracyn11. Make sure you treat for 5 days as instructed. The nice part about these products from Mardel is that you don't have to change out the media in your filters as it does not kill the bacteria. I've tested it and it works as the company claims. Great product and the fish respond after 1 treatment. It's my medication of choice for body fungus.

[springbank21]

oh I forgot you do not need to change the water during the cure. I've done it both ways and got rid of the fungus faster with no water changes.