The controversial Bulldog. A cull or not a cull?

Here is the pic of bulldogs some Breeders has been collecting from me and breed to fix the strain. I have one female able to produce this kind of egg shape discus with drooping cheek.

Another one

His brother.

Another one.

[Fish_Fin-atic]

Jimmy, personally, I would cull them. Nip it in the bud while you still can. Otherwise, soon we'll end up with all sorts of strange and ugly deformations in our Discus. Just look at what happend to the poor Goldfish! What started out as a nice Carp-like fish, now sports, two tails, bubble eyes, fat bellies, ugly growths on the head....what's next - three eyes?!! :P Don't let the king of fish be subjected to this humiliation, stop it now before it's too late! :(

[prew62]

Why do you want to propogate a deformidy? Look at the problems persian cats have with their eyes and respiration. Has this condition shown up in wild fish? That should give you your answer. Survival of the FITTEST.
Please cull these fish.

Interesting,

I get those popping up in my browns, and yes some are wild,

they're Jimmy's fish, if he wants to fix the trait or work with him it's his perogative.

I dont see the controversy........those ARE culls :o.....without a question of a doubt!!

Tony

[April]

hmmmmm.....i have one wild cross who is very high finned but pointy on the top of the fin...and it has kinda sticky outy gills...think he may be one. hes ugly as sin. his brothers are ok.

I've been culling them all along until one famous breeder (family friend) asked me to keep them for him and he and his breeder freinds has been secretly working with them for the last 2 years. For what? I really don't know and have no interest of asking. Now I have 8 /3" fish ready for the breeder's wife to bring them back to Asia. I was just thinking if I should keep them. I've just decided not to keep them since the Wild of Dennis H. has been calling me. When I look at them, they really have an ugly human face like the Flowerhorn. I'll empty the tank and put some Alenquer Curipera instead. Below is the fish we all want to see.
Jimmy.

[April]

Far better.. Jimmy. and no...you cant have teh curipera like dennis. as i want them. and you are gonna end up scooping them before me.

Thanks for posting the pictures Jimmy, Not sure why they would call it a bulldog... but for each his own.... It popped up in one of my pairs about 3 years ago... here is a pic.. the top right pigeon culled it at 5"..... When I split the pair neither produced with other partners... This to me looks like a pushed in version of the blue bat or something that I have seen before..... It is a cull but if there is a market why not... but I doubt it will be a fixed strain...... but who knows...

http://www.geocities.com/amuruges2000/images/sale.jpg

April: Oliver will deliver right at my door steps. His family live in my area. Hahaha.
Jimmy.

[April]

not fair jimmy

If they are capable to hold their own grounds and are healthy, keepon breeding them.
Nothing wrong about being different.
You might be breaking new grounds for the discus.
We got all colors of the rainbow already.
Maybe your bulldogs will be the new fashion like the different fancy of the bettas, the goldfish, the arowanas, the flower horns, and all the cats, dogs, rodents, horses, etc...

Good Luck.

Talking about Bettas. My friend just spend close to $1000 of 8 pairs of half moon Battas from Singapore.They're different from the regular$1.99 Betta in a cup in LFS. 4 pairs already have fry whitin a month he received them.

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

Jimmy
I would say if you have a market for them and want to breed them, why not.
After all the end buyer has the choice either to buy or not.
ps I love the snakeskin, they are one of my favorites
Dennis

Why is it that people complain about the overall poor quality of discus on the market....and then turn around and encourage...or at the very least, condone someone to keep and breed DEFORMED fish?? Eventually these genetics make it into the mainstream...hidden in those little beauties you just bought.
Dont be dissapointed when some of the fry you grow out look like someone stepped on thier head....

Tony :-\

If the world known breeders are working on them. There must be something going on with those fish. They must have seen something good in them that we miss.
Jimmy.

[Smokey]

Tony , I agree with you 100%.... old story.. people want cheap fish.. then they complain it was not their fault...when the fish turn out less then perfect...(compared to someone eleses)...
There are the persons who buy a fish 'cause it "looks" nice.. or it is the latest craze....and there is the person's who buy a fish for what it represents. Perfection...the ultimate challenge, beauty onto itself.
Discus, IMO, are such a fish..

Smokey

SO if the market is good... it is okay to breed those butterfly discus as well..... just out of curiosity...

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

Anand
I personally DO NOT approve of mutilation.
How ever if a pair are throwing fish that are a little different than normal and there is a market for what ever reason and a person wanted to raise them I do not have a problem with that. I wouldn't but that is my choice, just like it would be your choice to buy such a fish or not.
I seriously doubt that it is going to hurt the gene pool, domestics have been inbreed so much already the gene pool is already a terrible mess.
Dennis

Jimmy

JMO....but I dont buy it...I think the only thing they see in those fish is a dollar sign.

Anand

When I first saw a picture of the butterfly (a couple of years ago??) I was under the impression that the lack of a tail was genetic....in the last bout...on simply I think, someone stated that the fishes tails are removed manually. Im not sure what the truth is.....I'd be more in favor of the manual rout(not that I agree with that either)....at least there's no chance of them contaminating the gene pool that way.

Dennis

I agree...the discus gene pool is a terrible mess....why make it worse??...Im not saying that these fish will have a huge impact on the gene pool, but why add to the mess and just say....hell....it was screwed anyways?? Thats how we got where we are now!

Call me a tight ***....thats how I feel.

Tony

[April]

ok.....everyone ought to go out and buy a wild..
lets all hug a wild....and remember where all these fishies came from.of course some of them are less than perfect also...but no breeder is at fault.
think thats why alot of breeders are breeding back to wilds..to get back some of the basic traits.and genetics. and strength

[Willie]

OK, I'm going to get trashed here, but I've got to say something.

There's nothing particularly natural or inherently good in any of the characteristics we prize in a hybrid discus. We want them BIG, we want them ROUND, we want them VERY COLORFUL. We keep them in glass boxes with lots of water changes, feed them huge amounts of high protein food, periodically medicate them and push them to spawn every 15 days. All this makes for a big, fat discus. Then we try to raise 150 - 200 frys out of every spawn. You don't see any of this in nature.

Now, I find the so-called bulldog form hideous. But a native of the Amazon may find a spotted red snakeskin equally unnatural. Let's not get too dogmatic with value judgements on new discus strains. Remember that saying about living in glass houses... :-\

OK, fire away, Willie

I have to say the best looking fish in all the ones i have is a wild heckle, inspite of its lack of brilliant color.... there is something about a healthy proportional shape that is more admirable than anything else.... When you state "if there is a market" then you are, inadvertantly admiting the hidden agenda to make money, not that there is anything wrong with that, but when you start throwing names like bulldog, unicorn or gnome discus it goes a step beyond making money, it is deceitful. This hobby is flooded with first timers, with an average of 50 bucks a fish not many average hobbist will buy more than 10 discus in their pursuit to successful discus keeping.... In the past few years with more online activity I see more people have nicer looking discus than before.... All these new fancy names will be moving away soon.... As for me I am moving towards getting a good bit of wild stock myself, they seem to be getting more of those lately, good ones too.....

[DarkDiscus]

Very interesting thread.

IMHO, those fish look like discus with a thyroid problem. I had some rainbows which got like that. And one female would have offspring which all developed that same problem. I would be curious to see if it is a medical problem rather than a genetic characteristic.

John

Had a conversation with the breeder this morning. He simply uses the bulldog to breed with a desirable color female with not so perfect shape to bring the dosal fin up. Esp the wild stains they are all working on. He prefers my Blue Diamond Bulldog cause he can mix with any other female and retain the desirable wild color. He is not trying to fix or sell the bulldog. He just want to improve a football RSG they will not normally breed to a round and desirable shape. He also notice the F1 keep their dorsal fin eract while eating. I never knew they normally fold their fins???. At least they have some value.
Jimmy.