Opinions on Leopards

[jeep]

I've recently seen where people have refered to Leopards as "trash". Why? Does this also apply to Leopard Snake Skins? From the pics I've seen, I like them but I don't want trash either...

Are there other strains people consider as trash? I want my next order to be a good one...

Thanks

Brian

[Toothfairy]

Brian,

The old saying "One man's trash is another's treasure".

Just because some of the experts here consider them trash doesn't mean they are "universally trash". The great Jack Wattley breeds and sells them and I bought two of them from him because of their color and beauty. Do you think Jack Wattley will breed and sell "trash"? It's a matter of opinion and just like Larry Flynt once said, opinion is like an a$$, everybody has one.

People are in this discus thing for a lot of different reasons. Personally, I'm in it for their beauty, and the Leopard strains are one of the prettiest sight to behold. I display my prettiest fish in my living room and in my dental practice. And it makes me happy everytime an acquaintance or a patient compliments me on their beauty. So what if they are considered trash by others? If they die because of the supposed poor health and quality, then I will buy some more. It doesn't mean I am wrong for buying them. It serves my purpose. The quality of anything has to be based on a certain standard. For me, the only standard that matters is my own.

JMO


P.S.
I also own several large round discus from American breeders who are the more vocal critics of the Leopard strain.

[Paul]

Brian,

I know they took a beating on this forum the other day but I don't necessarily agree that they should be categorized as trash. However, I will caveat that statement by saying my experience is very limited. I currently have some and they are doing just fine. Most breeders I've talked to tend to agree they are a little harder to grow out and getting them to successfully spawn can sometimes be disappointing. The other common problem is that few ever pattern out close to what you see in the shows. I would suggest that you contact either Enchanted Discus or Universal Discus. They also have a great deal of experience with this fish and my guess is that they will give you their honest opinion. I've bought some from Samson but not before he informed me about the above.

Paul

[RAWesolowski]

Brian,

I have blues and pigeons. The fish have great shapes and I have a "runt" or two. However, I picked up a half dozen leopard angel crosses from discusfarm.us. The fish are from Wayne's Discus and look great.

I'm not too concerned if they are perfect circles or reach maximum size. I like the way that they look.

[allan_mark76]

Okay can somebody please inform me why you all consider Leapords "TRASH". I don't get it??? I thought all types of DISCUS were considered prescious.

Thanks.

A-

Hi Brigitte,

Sometimes I find myself trying to save the discus world and post things others do not understand. The problem is I learned to much to fast. I have allways wanted to help people and done so back when the discus fourm's first came out!

Man brigitte I changed so much and helped so much!

I did things like testing MEDS, DISEASES, BREEDING, FEEDING ETC.........

And shared it with all on the Discus Fourms.

Hell! I was the one who got everyone to start feeding blkworms.
I tought people how to parent raise discus just by changeing of few things.
I also pushed for the light backgrounds on discus tanks that so many use now. I Raised the Quality in the USA over the years with the help of the internet and others. I helped many treat diseases. Also you!
I Even bought other peoples discus they bought from other breeders. Payed to send them out and payed for testing at the same time paying for the discus. Why? cuz I wanted to learn and wanted to share it with all. I never wanted to hurt any other breeders BIZ.. All I wanted was truth to make our hobby better for everyone.


However I do agree Now that am way over My head And Know to much.
I know I say things that newbies need not hear or need to worry about! I know am either scaring them or they have no ideal what am talking about. I know I should not judge other peoples Discus Because yes beauty is in the eye of the beholder I agree on that But I do not agree letting the newbies think that the pic of a poor Quality diiscus is good. Or letting something be said that is not true!

Brigitte the color feeding done with whatever is used on small discus fry is to find the spotted types for grading. I have tons of reports with info on everything I claim or write on this forum. I would be glad to share it with anyone this one last time.

Also I will not take back what I said about trash And will not say other thing about it.
I will say this I do have a few good ones from sing sing (roy + sly) that are very nice indeed. I also have a few from malaysia that are clean and of ok quality that I plan to outcross so yes there are good ones out there. (BUT NOT FOR THE MOST PART)
Again I hope everyone has good luck with their new leps and lep ss.
really I do wish all of you the best! I also hope you breed them and see for yourself. one last tip before I go IMO its better to outcross them with something close. Never inbreed them brother + sister unless you trust your breeder and they are of f1 stock.

I guess the time has come were I should keep My big mouth shut. And let others learn for themselves. hell thats how I learned. :-X

Keno, I agree Big eyes wrong strain.

Toothfairy,
Again I have no reason to post false info to the board without prof.
Also Jack wattley does not breed discus anymore gabe imports them along with the rest of us.

Limige, and Others
I agree with You but how can you have suscess when starting with bad stock?

well I hate to call Myself a expert But maybe I'am Maybe this board does not need that at all.

To be honest am a little hurt about the phone calls and emails telling me am arrogent and mean. or that am getting favertisem for being around so long. Really am not like that at all and thats not how I became a FAV.

I know am a bad writer and leave alot of blanks but really all I want to do is teach and help. hell I no I made alot of people mad at me but please do not take it personal I think everyone is great.

You see my problem is I tryed to be everyones friend and tryed to make everyone happy. But when you make one happy you make another mad. Hope you understand.
Also I agree after reading a few of my old posts that I do seem cocky.
I guess it could be from hearing and anwsering the same Q's for so long.

Brigitte,
I want you to know that your post today has nothing to do with what am about to do. I also want others to know the same. This has been in the makeing for a few days now and after much thought I think it would be better if I move on. hell am not even selling Discus right now!
Anyways I have a chance to own part of my own forum were its not so busy. This way I'll have more time to stop and think were am going or what am trying to prove. instead of trying to save Discus world hurting others during My search.

I want Brew,april,Carol,Jim,Ryan,julz,paul,randel,beth and everyone else on the simply team that I might of forgot to mention to know,
You guys will allways be my friends. Am sorry for breaking the rules and making you guys look bad. Its just right now I think am at a time in My life were I might say the wrong things like I have in the past and only hurt this place more.

So I plan to log off but i'll be back from time to time to say hi to all of you.
I will allways KIT and try My best to stay out or cause debates
here ever again.
Your Friend to the End ;)
Cary Gld!

[Ryan]

There are always two sides to a story. A lot of hobbyists keep discus because they are attractive and graceful, they have interesting personalities, they are fun to watch when raising fry, etc. Then you have people who tend to focus more on the actual fish, their well-being, and the well-being of this hobby.

Whether a person likes discus for their colors, their shape, their fins, whatever -- the bottom line is that without healthy fish, you don't have any of this. Cary has amazing fish and I think everyone agrees on that, but I don't think people understand what he's been doing behind the scenes to benefit us as a community. He has been set on quality and health for as long as I've known him. I don't think this is such an unusual thing for a breeder to be focused on -- any tropical fish breeder who is serious about what he or she does will tell you that health and quality are the two most important aspects of what they do.

There are people who love leopards, and there are people who equally dislike them. I don't think Cary was attacking them or accusing anyone, but from his experience was stating an observation that he found to be true -- in this case, it was the conclusion that leopards, for the most part, were a weaker strain and therefore prone to disease and other problems. This is true of most anything that is heavily inbred/backbred. Let's face it, leopards may be gorgeous fish, but what condition are their genetics in?

This is not to say that you cannot own a healthy leopard discus. By the time it gets to you, if the breeder was a good and honest one, he has culled all of the bad stuff out. So while we may think our leopards are great, those that are breeding and raising these fish may know a completely different truth than us.

I am sad to see Cary go. Yes, I consider him my friend, but it's more than that. He has worked for a long time with these fish. He probably knows them better than most of us ever will. You can't buy experience like that. With his help, he's saved people a lot of heartache and headache that newbie discus owners so often have to deal with.

I would publicly like to say that I, for one, am a little disappointed at the fact that people contacted Cary privately for no other reason than to bad-mouth him based on his opinions and experiences. Disagreeing is one thing, but to call him arrogant or mean is quite another. He has been a temendous help to myself and the moderators/admins here, as well as our members. He has generously donated time, money, and fish to this website, not because he had to, but because he wanted to. He will be missed here.

No, I do not own leopards. No, Cary is not paying me to play favoritism, and I don't even own any of the man's fish. I just saw him as being a friendly, honest guy who was trying to help promote the hobby, and in the end it turned sour. I do not often post my opinions on these issues, but I have to say that this one really did upset me.

I think the leopard conversation is closed. Breeders who are working with them know, as a whole, where the matter stands. Those who buy them and keep them, enjoy them and good luck with them. But at this point it's all just everyone's opinion, and we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

Ryan

Cary: There's no need to explain what you've just said. you can't please everybody. We all know you've tried your best to bring up the standard of disucs in The US and Canada. You , Mike and others have succeeded. Now we can see quality discus in North American that we have never seen before. You're so honest and the first one to admit you import some percentage of your fish which another breeders will not . I know all the breeder's fish came from through a family friend in the business but I choose not to say anything cause it's none of my business. I know Jack Wattley hasn't had a single discus for a while and you are the first one to tell the public. I thank you for your honesty and your quest for excellency is hard to surpass. I choose to sit back and watch other people play the game. Instead you stand on the front line and trying the right the wrongs. You should be in the HALL OF FAME in discus. I know the rest of the fellow hobbyists will agree with me. You really makes a big difference in our hobby and not only the European has good looking discus anymore. We have them here just because of you and the other honest breeders. Here I thank you.
Jimmy.

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

Wow
Cary a man of few word, did you type all that by yourself, ha ha
As far as I am concerned MY FRIEND you are one of the best damn Discus persons around.
Ya just can't right the world
GOOD LUCK
Dennis

[Jeffery_Doty]

Cary,

What Dennis said! What Ryan said!

Your # 1 in my book!

Jeff
Oregon

[Wolf]

Cary,

I don't know who is pissed at you for telling the truth. It is YOUR opinion. I hope you get some more fish in. I was planning to buy some discus from you this spring. I like the way you focus on quality and tell the truth with no bs involved. For the people that get their feelings hurt, I say tough. It's just as easy not to read the thread than to complain about it. I hate to see you leave and hope you get back into discus soon. I have yet to see a fish from you that wasn't a grade A fish. Thanks for contributing to the forum and good luck in the future.

[jeep]

Sorry, I didn't mean to start a firestorm here. I was not refering to anything Cary, or anyone else in particular said, it was more of a broad request for legitimate information based upon my desire for good, healthy fish... Maybe it could have been worded differently.

I have been contacted privately about some potentially sensitive opinions and I appreciate it very much.

P.S. Sorry to see you go Cary, I was planning on ordering some LEOPARDS from you!!! ;)

[EthanCote.com]

Hey Wolf,

It appears now a day you can't even express your opinions anymore in fear of hurting or offending someone. Look at the people that are being sue by that Novack dude.

It is a sad day indeed when opinions are all we have and it is being taken away from us.

Truly sad to see Cary leave indeed. Best of luck to ya Cary.


Cheers,

Chi.

PS: To those thinking of stop posting, please don't!!!

[goldengatediscus]

Ryan, I'm sorry that you think the leopard conversation is closed. I think that it's unfortunate that Cary used this posting and my LSS posting to announce his departure, but I just spoke with him, and the Leopard posting has nothing to do with his decision to take a break from SIMPLY.
Cary has a wealth of knowledge, and he's a great, helpful guy. No one should be calling him privately to bad-mouth him.

The topic of discusion was and is leopards and LSS. Trying to get opinions, not-bad mouth anyone, so why should this topic be closed??
Brigitte

[mench]

Brigitte,as far as spotted fish..go ahead and buy what you like!!!! Asking everyone to tell you what is wrong with one strain against another will bring nothing but trouble....everyone has there own idea what is the best discus..I personally am not too fond of some of the solid types,but I would not say anything bad about them because it is none of my business.I have had a lot of so called leopards and other spotted types and for the most part they are "nice fish" at least till they started to grow bigger,at least 50% of the ones I got are runts and most of the others,well lets just say,they were pricy red turks.thats not to say that there are fish out there whos spots don't grow together,I am sure there are,I just haven't had any yet...I feel that by asking your type of question .you are asking for a heated debate on this board,and we really don't need that...
I think that you should always do the research as to what types of fish you want to purchase,ask breeders or who ever you buy from for pics of older fish or go the pick out your own fish.Remember to please YOURSELF NOT OTHERS!!!!
So go out,look around and pick the fish that you like and enjoy...but like I said this is just my opinion.......

Mench

[Ryan]

Brigitte,

We, as a whole, will have to agree to disagree on this subject. Whether or not Cary left is not the issue, there are still people here arguing as to whether or not the Leopards are "crap" even with Cary gone. Those that feel leopards are not the best fish will still feel this way, and those that think leopards are great won't change their minds either. At this point it is just opinions, and those seem to be getting criticized pretty heavily by some people right now.

I keep hearing the phrase, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" thrown about in relation to this, but fish are NOT just looks and looks alone. We all know this. When they were referred to as "trash" everyone assumed they were being called ugly or small, and they got offended. This is NOT the situation at all, IMO. Those that called them trash did so because they'd bred them, raised them, and imported them, and they saw a side of it that regular hobbyists do not see.

Leopards and Leopard SS are like any other discus, this forum isn't black-listing them or anything. Feel free to ask questions. But the whole "to trash or not to trash" thing will never have a definite answer, just two opposing sides ready to battle it out.

Ryan

[allan_mark76]

Okay can somebody please state the "FACTS:o, FACTS:o, FACTS:o, FACTS:o, FACTS:o" as to why there are so many problems with Leapords. Right now I'm hearing a lot of here- say on this strain and no absolute harcore facts on Leapords???. I'm not a breeder nor an expert on DISCUS so can somebody please state very simply while yet accurately why there is such a problem with Leapords and LSS???.

Thanks.

A- ;D

[Jaie]

A quote from JimmyL's post:

"I know all the breeder's fish came from through a family friend in the business but I choose not to say anything cause it's none of my business. I know Jack Wattley hasn't had a single discus for a while and you are the first one to tell the public."


Jimmy,
I understand what you are trying to do. But if you have to extol the virtues of one breeder, let's not slam another competitor unfairly and postulate that he does not raise the discus he sells.

And my point Jimmy is that if you cannot tell us with reasonable certainty and with proofs to support your conjectures, then it is nothing but rumor and innuendo, and with all due respect, in doing so does a disservice to the hobby in general.

The only accurate phrase in your post is "..it is none of my business".


For all you doubters out there, here's Gabe's version: excerpts from an e-mail from him:

"Carry has no foundation for coming up with this, and this is why I no longer
post on simply discus or any other forum.
At this very moment we have 5 breeding pairs of Leopard's at our hatchery.
Carry has never been to our hatchery and therefore cannot assume anything.
Everything we advertise, we raise at the Miami hatchery.
Gabriel Posada
www.wattleydiscus.com"

Have a nice evening all.

[goldengatediscus]

Hi Ryan:
Thanks for the reply. I agree with you that there is more to fish-keeping than just "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder". As a buyer, I would want to know if a particular strain doesn't grow so big, gets sick easily, responds slowly to meds, doesn't breed true, etc That's all I was trying to get at.
Brigitte

[SLY]

I wouldn't label LSS as crap or even any spotted fishes but I have to said that they are not EASY to take care of so I can understand some of your frustrations on LSS. Remember those LSS are cross with RSG and have inbreed for several generations..any fishes that are inbreed like that would not be easy to handle. To me it's more of a challenge than frustration. Go figure why Leopard snakes has been grandchampions in numerous competition now..you can deny their beauty and every spotted fish have their own characteristic..every spotted fish look different..this is why it's so desirable and this is why breeders and hobbyist are still trying to improve the strain.

Many hobbyists wonder why their leopard snake spots joint after a while and most of the time it's the food they feed..if you feed red enhancer to your leopard snake all the time..you would think that it would bring out their spots right? Yes I would say partially but if you do feed them with red enhancer like astaxantin or naturose..you only take care of the RED part..but what about the blue/green outline? if you feed them red enhancer all the time wouldn't the red joint and cover the blue outline? You figure that out ;)

Conclusion is Leopard snake are not crap or trash..any fishes that has problems/diseases can give u hell of a headache and that's not just spotted fish alone. If you don't take care of them well..they would turn to crap or trash..that I am sure. ;)

Cary I am sure you will be missed but like some say you can't please everyone..Sometimes when I wanted to say something straight forward here..I have second thoughts because some of the people here couldn't take criticsms in a positive way and worse I have seen comments on culls/runts being sold here said to be great fishes or beautiful..so I understand how u feel..take a short break bro..you have me on your side. ;D ;D ;D

[April]

Ok sly..well im just gun shy of spotted fish. but i do know that roy has some very nice ones..and I know their health would be good...as i know you guys run a tight ship and care about the fish before the dollar. so sure.id go for one or two...from someone i knew.like you guys or cary who says these fish are good. still love the rsg x diamonds etc.

I by no means want to beat a dead horse with a stick and I feel the mods (Ryan) have done an excellent job in this subject. However, I think the issues here are more than just leopards and LSSs. People are taking things too personally sometimes and taking things the wrong way other times. No, this is not a problem that will go away. I find the fact that someone called Cary for the sole purpose of badmouthing him sickening. When I was a newbie and had a single sick discus that was soon to die, I met Cary in the chat here on Simply. Only because my fish was sick, he used his own money to call me long distance to talk about my fish, and then proceded to send me a med in the mail that I didn't know how to get ahold of. I can honestly say that i firmly believe Cary has done more for the standard of discus keeping in North America than anyone else has.
I also think that when we are faced with conflicts such as these, we should take into account the degree with which we know the people involved. For, a conflict between Cary and a fella that has made 17 some-odd posts is a no-brainer as for who to trust. I think Cary has too many friends here to stay away and even if he says he won't be here often, he will be-he'll just post less and under a guest name. It's a shame that he who is quite possibly our single best source of information must be lost because of someone we don't know, and I would like to be the first (or one of the first ;) ) to invite Cary to come back and continue to help as he has helped before. Take a break for as long as you need buddy, and come back when you're ready, and myself, along with others, will not let you take any crap that you don't deserve.

If only i could say i don't owe so much of what I know about discus to this man.....

Brad

I love LSS and got some very nice fish.
However they die just about every week.
Can't say its the heavy metals, but it sure match the discription to a T.
I don't hate them, just want some honest fish.

[OEG]

Who cares if Lss or Leopards are crap or not, people are not opening their eyes to what is happening here. Cary is in my opinion as good a breeder as Mr. Wately and Mr.E Schmit Focke and when he says something take it as truth not from prejudice but from practical experience. Can you all put yourselves in his shoes and see what this must feel like to him. How may of you have been helped by him in one way or another? I bet the majority of you. All he does is try to help each and every one of us out of the love he truely has for this particular fish, whether it be spotted stripped,peppered or other. He takes so many calls on a dailly basis and answers so many e mails and some still call him erogant, that ticks me off, some dont realize what a gift he and his knowledge is to each and every one of us. We must all learn to put our ego aside and learn from those that we can learn from. Alot of us do things to our fish just becouse we read it in a book but Cary does it becouse he knows the specific means in which a certain treatment will take to help resolve whatever problem may be present, thats practical experience. How much time do you all think this all takes away from the time he spends with his son and his wife and new baby, he loves this fish and would do only things to help it grow bigger stronger and healthier. Screw the beauty is in the eye crud, he stated facts about a certain strain, get over it its factual the strain is weaker and harder to maintain. Does that mean he doesnt believe their beautiful, not necessarily. So many breeders put up pics of faboulus looking leopards and leopard SS and we say aahhh, how dumb of us. the reality is that they might get to us and look like red turqs and not good ones at that. The strain has great potential and one day a great breeder like Cary or Mike will set it in stone as best possible. We are loosing a great resource and its due to some dip sticks that take it all personal, like i said before get over it, the mans is a great person and an awesome breeder who only tries to help the masses and of course he cant please everyone but he sure tries. How he must feel to know that those he tries to help have not appreciated it.

Cary, if you read this know this. You are in my book and that of many others in the same league as a Mr.Watley and Mr.Focke and thats not smoke man its the truth. Your wife is a saint to let you do what you love so much and tolerate so many phone calls to your house from total strangers. I will always be thankful for your help and your friendship. Your sons will be very proud men when they are old enough to know what an awesome person you are, if you think about it brother thats all that matters. Call on me whenever you need anything, i will always have you and yours in my prayers.

Oscar

I know nothing of nothing, but do know that Cary will be missed by many.

His expertise is the envy of a few bad apples, and IMO that is the only reason why they cause his stess..... Those who can not handle his truth need to move on, and let the rest of us continue to learn from his knowledge. GLD is here to stay, you are not.

Wake up people, he now belongs to a tight circle of friends, and we are not willing to let go!.

Julz (who has lots of corners)

[fcdiscus]

Well said Oscar. You too Julz! :thumbsup: I said it when I met him through Aquabid,and I will repeat it now- In my opinion- Cary Strong is " Simply The BEST!" Frank

[Jeff]

I agree Julz,

I/we still have a great deal to learn from Yoda. I appreciate all the help you have given me. I know from time to time everyone needs a break. Take it and come back even stronger. May the force be with you!!! :thumbsup:

[sanan]

Well put Brad, Oscar. As a new member to Simply, I have found nothing but great advice from Cary's postings. It is often impossible to get someone with Cary's experience to teach others. We should all be grateful not only to Cary but to others who are on this forum with a focus on advancing the hubby.

It seems that for some this forum is "free advertisement" for pushing one’s business and nothing more. If that is the case please get an ad and leave the advice giving to the experts!

-sanan

[zzbruinzz]

I don't know cary but i really enjoy reading his threads. He has indirectly made me more picky regarding quality when buying discus. have a good holiday! I emailed him about getting some fish but he won't have any till next year!!!! :-*

andy

[limige]

wow, it's beginning to smell of politics around here!!

what began as a simple post about problems/success rate of a strain has gotten way outta control.....k kids settle down now, take a breath, we can all get along!

cary, i hope i haven't offended you in any way. i simply stated my opinion, but then i'm one who tends to learn on his own will some help from others. i strongly respect your wisdom and experience you have helped me in the past and you have some bueatiful fish. i was just thinking, if you didn't like those spotted lep's you have then i could come over and pick them up any time! lol.

this forum is a place to share opinions, there is no need to post several times to try and prove a point, theres no need to argue. everyone has their own opinions and we need to respect each other's. if someone choses not to listen even though you know your right then, well that's their problem.

and if someone is giving bad advice to a newbie or whatever you could always just send the person an email instead of agrueing on the forum.

now, everyone say their sorry and be good.

[Aquatic_Design]

I do have some of Cary's fish and they are the best discus I have. Cary called me on the phone prior to shipping and after I received the discus to be sure that I was satisfied and the fish were happy and healthy in their new home. He has also gone out of his way to answer questions that had nothing to do with the fish he sent me. He is a very honest knowledgable person who just wants to help as many people as he can.
I for one will miss Cary's input here and hope he will return one day. :'(
To those who called or e-mailed him with negative comments SHAME ON YOU. >:(

Donna

[Liz_Streithorst]

When I fisht saw Cary's statment about leopards being trash I must say that I was a little shocked. While the experienced knew exactly what he was refering to without having to have it spelled out, I didn't have a clue. I can understand that people who had never tried to breed them and raise them up would be offended by his catigorical statement. We all know that along with Cary's endearing qualities of not being able to see and not being able to count that he also isn't William Shakespere. In his mind he was taking a short cut stating that most leopards were trash rather than saying that they tend to sicken and die easily, they tend not to grow as big, they rerely breed true, blah, blah, blah. I have received some beautiful fish from Cary. I don't think that he has any meanness to him what so ever. I don't think that he'll be able to stay away from here for long. He has too many friends and loves helping out too much. Whaddaya say we give the guy a break.

Liz

[brewmaster15]

Okay all.... time to move on....


thank,
al