All fish stay at bottom, help.

[BanMeNot]

Discus Help Checklist… (Al Sabetta 8_29_01)


Physical condition of the fish
1. visible parasites (describe) --- N
2. stringy feces ---N
3. head standing ---N
4. bloated/ constipated ---N
5. Hole in the head, lateral line erosion ---some have little holes.
6. spots, salt like flecks, velvety appearance,cotton like growths etc. ---N
7. excessive slime production ---N
8. labored breathing, disfunctional gill ---N
9. cloudy eyes ---N
10.darkened color---two is
11. faded color---some is
12. other unusual changes... ---top fin not raise, stay at bottom of tank, and not eating much.


Water parameters
1. pH? ---6.8-7.0
2. Temperature… ---86F
3. hardness? ---donno
4. conductivity? ---donno
5. TDS? ---donno
6. R/O (reverse osmosis) filtered, or Tap (well or chlorinated city water), rain water --- San Francisco chlorinated city water had aged a day.
7. Water change regime? ( example .. 30 % daily, weekly monthly etc) like 10-20% daily this week
8. appearance (cloudy, green , clear, yellowish etc)---clear
9. Odor (smells clean or sulfur-lit match smell-anaerobic indicator) ---smells clean

Tank parameters
1. Size in gallons/liters? ---30 gal
2. Substrate.? (bare glass, gravel, sand..) ---bare glass
3. Planted? ---N
4. Drift wood? ---N

Filter types
1 Wet/dry? --- aquaClear 200
2. Canister?
3. hanging box( aquaclear whisper etc)?
4. sponges? --- Hydro-sponge IV with air, just put in yesterday.
5. supplimental Peat filter?
6. supplimental air?---Y
7. Carbon, resin exchanges, ammo-chips etc


Lighting( Important for algae problems and plant growth)
1. Hood
2. bulb type size, watts, spectrum (ex 5000K daylight) ---Fluorescent Lights cool white 1ft.
3. light/dark cycle (number hours on/off) ---on hr: 10am-10pm


General….
1. Diet(what and how often do you feed you fish?--- fronze bloodworms and tertra flake food daily. Stopped live CBW after those happened.
2. Other tank occupants than discus? ---one catfish for clean glass surface.
3. How many Discus in your tank? ---11
4. How long have you had them? ---3-4 months
5. Where did you get them (breeder/ Local Fish Shop -LFS)
6. Tank and filter cleaning schedule?--- once a week
7. Medications/ salt treatments recently used or tried to treat this problem?--- after 2 tablespoon per 10 gallon in last 2 days, then those not itching, but still stay in bottom and not eat well :(

Hi all,
I have 60gal tank already aged for 1 day, should I put those in that tank or wait until all fish healthy?
Is CBW free of disease, good to feed?
Some faded colored fish not eating well.
One dark color stay at corner of tank, not eating well also.
Some are nervous to ppl movement.
What is the basic "Water parameters" measuring instuctment I got to buy first?
HELP!!! ???
And thanks for and advices. :-)

Keith

[Wolf]

Let's see if I can help. If I read your post right, you have 11 dicus in a 30 gallon tank. This could be a your problem especially if you are only changing water once a week. I personally and I am no expert but I would move the cycled AC 200 and sponge over to the 60 gallon tank and move the fish over to. Of course, use your aged water to fill the 60g with and make sure it's the same temp as your 30g tank. I would add a tablespoon of aquarium salt per 10 gallons and keep up with your water changes daily for a while. At the least vacuum out you old food and waste once a day. You might want to add one more sponge filter. IMO a AC 200 and one sponge is a small filter for 11 discus in a 60g tank.

Another thing you could do is move one filter out of your cycled tank into the 60g and keep 5 in the 30g and 6 in the 60g depending on size. It's recommended to have 10g per fish on adult discus. You can usually get away with packing more young fish in a tank with plenty of water changes.

[Carol_Roberts]

You may have other problems, but your discus have definately outgrown the 30 gallon. (I'm assuming they've grown since you bought them) What are you going to use for filtration on the 60? An aqua Clear 500 will work nicely along with an air sponge. You can put the seasoned sponges from the 200 in the AC500 along with the new sponges to help seed it faster.

I'd do 30% daily water changes adding back a couple of tablespoons salt per 10 gallons for the water added. Feed sparingly for a few days . Any white stringy feces? You may ahve a bacterial infection in addition to (or because of)overcrowding.
Carol :heart1:

[Smokey]

banme not;;;; - Water is overstocked.. probely high Nitrates... increase w/c's... min. and I mean minimun -- 50% per day. the 200 is to small to handle the fish load without the water changes!!!
I've got 7 - 6 month old discus in a 70 gallon system --- and 50% w/c every 24 hours is necessary to keep the nitrates below 5.0 ppm.
Moving everything into the 60 gal. will help... but keep up on the water changes !!! Larger tank..still 50% daily is necessary. Plus , more filter media would be of help.. The A/C's are a good filter, probely one of the most efficiant on the market... for the money.
Overstocked, poor water conditions, ... receipt for disaster, IME.

A nitate test kit is the one to have in every fish room. When everything is working proberly nitrates tell everything. ph - test kit- yup.
good luck
Smokey

[BanMeNot]

Hi all,
Thx for those suggustions. I have ac300 and two hydro-sponge IV for the 60gal filtration setup. Is that enough? I think I will move all fish to 60gal at this afternoon. :P
Carol, no white stringy feces are found.
Smokey, I need nitrite or nitrate test kit for basic?

Will that be problem if untreated chorinated water are added for w/c? I have 10gal tank for aged storage.

Thanks,
Keith

[Wolf]

Some people add dechlorinator and tap water straight to the tank but I would be careful about doing that. Water temp needs to be pretty close to original water temps. Also, water that isn't airated for 24 hours may give you some big ph swings the fish don't like or need. If you have room, try to find a 55g drum to age your water in and a pump to pump it out with. I got mine for $15 and it's a great water storage tank. There are several post on this board talking about where to find them at.

[Carol_Roberts]

Chlorine in the tap watert can kill your biofilter. If you do not have them buy Ammonia, pH, NitrIte, and NitrAte test kits (in that order if you're poor) A 300 alone is NOT enough for a 60 gallon in my opinion.
Carol :heart1:

[Smokey]

The purpose of a filter/media is too allow bacteria to grow and multiply... which in turn consume the ammonia, nitrites produced. .. So.... a undersized filter can not do the job. A a/c 300 is rated for a 25 gallon tank, moderately stocked(?).
Each of the bacteris needs its own special enviornment.. anerobic, arobic,.
Chlorine "KILLS" the bacteria immediately, this is what chlorine is meant to do.. DO NOT ALLOW ANY CHLORINE TO CONTACT YOUR AQUARIUM ! They say one drop of chlorine can wipe out an entire healthy filter media bacteria colony. As carol mentioned , test kits are necessary, purchase the kits as your pocket book allows( you should have purchased the kits as your basic equipement). They tell you what is going on with the aquarium water. Once everything is mature and working proberly, the NITRATES are the guide-line for water changes. Rinse the dirty foam media in water removed from your tank, to clean them. DO NOT RINSE UNDER CHLORININATED TAP WATER! all the good bacteria will be killed .
Hydro/air sponges are extremely efficient bio-logical filter.
Hmmm aging water.. If you use a good brand dechlorinator/ammonia remover, and the water is at the parameters you want for he discus.. IMO.. aging is not necessary. Discus water is changed so often, 30 - 75% daily, that it does not have time to bounce around.
If your tap water has to be adjusted for.. ph.. hardness.. , YES... do use a seperate container. This will allow the water to become stable( after all the changes).
Remember, discus do not like changes in their enviorment. STABILITY... STABILITY ... STABILITY..
Hope this information is useful.
P.S. everything aside.... the water (enviroment) is what supports the discus, gives them life. Take care of the water and the discus can take care of themselves. and a lot of TLC ......
Smokey
ps .. because I know my water well enough, I depend on a NITRATE test kit to keep me inline. Even when I don't feel like doing a w/c ... over 5ppm no3 ... change the water... ok, ok i'm on it..lol.. got to go w/c time.

good luck Kieth.

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Keith:
Some people are lucky and their water doesn't change much after leaving the tap. Mine goes from pH 6.8 to 7.8.

A 50% waterchange with straight tap would lower my pH from 7.8 to 7.3 in minutes. A BIG SHOCK for discus. I have plastic barrels to agitate and heat my water in, but a plastic garbage can will do. It takes three hours of heavy agitation to raise my pH to 7.8. Others can jsut use an airstone overnight to raise the pH in their water.

The harder your water is the more agitation you have to use. GH test kits tell you how hard your water is. Mine is GH 11, what is yours?

Carol :heart1:

[Smokey]

Carol; when you said your water hardness was GH 11, are you using dh scale ? or???
curious .

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi smokey:
Aquarium Pharmaceuticals sells kits to test GH and KH, in addition to the pH and ammonia kits we're all so familiar with. You put 5 ml tank water in a test tube and count how many drops until the water turns from orange to green (for GH)

Mine takes 11 drops so it's eleven degrees of German Hardness/General Hardness which may equal 197 ms? Anyway it's moderately hard. My KH or carbonate hardness is also 11.

Carol :heart1:

[Smokey]

Hmmmmm. ..... ok I'm familar with the test kits. Been using them for over a decade.. i use a diffent manf., though. Its just that whenpeolpe post their water parameter stats. they fail to give the units of measurements. its like saying a tank has a capacity of 30. Is it liters, imperial gallons, U.S. gallons or what. ???
Every test kit has which scale it uses, and the proper conversion to others. EX.- throught out the world the gh can be measured in : dh degrees; Clark H degrees; fh degrees; hardness degrees; or mEq/L. PPM seems to be the standard which the hagen brand uses. and the kits which I use. pH is a universal standard of measurement, thank god, or can you imagine the confusion that would arise! everybody is gunho on the eletronic testers, which give the measurement in ms's..
My water stats for gh = 100 ppm; 5.6 dh'; 7 Clark H"; 2 mEq/L. after treatment. Before treament the gh = > 450ppm.
So, as you see the, importance of including the units is very important for others to understand. what a person is refering to.
Getting back to Keith's orginal question/situation.... the a/c 200 is undersized for a 60 gallon tank; and IME a NITRATE test kit is important for monintoring when w/c are necessary. Assuming everything else is working properly !
Starting out, new tank, filters, overstocking.. the ammonia and nitrites must be monitored to maintain safe water parameters... change the water... Without this type of information, how is a person to know what is going on in the tank; why fish are acting strangely.. Years of expierence has told me 90% of discus problems occur from unhealthy water.

Keith.. monitor your water conditions. Do the necessary water changes, keep a habit for doing daily w/c's. Let your tap water sit, aireat and see just how much the parameters do change.
I use a r/o system and peat filtered water to achieve the necessary softness required for my discus. Works well, no surprises, consistant....
Every body has their own method, Keith, find waht works best for you and stick with it. A pH of 6.8 - 7.0, as you stated in your tank, is great. Keep up the w/c changes, keep the filters clean of debre, and most of the problems should go away.
Just imagine yourself locked in a smoke filled room, not healthy!

Good luck

Smokey
Smokey

[BanMeNot]

Hi,
Carols, Smokey, thanks for you guys info, that will help me alot.
Carols, I not had any tester except ph, then can't tell what the GH is... ???
I tested my trap water ph is like 7.8+, and my 60gal now is like 7.0. I think aged water will lower down from 7.8+ to 7.2. Bigger aging tank are needed, that is for sure. :P
I was using tap water to rinse sponge media, that is wrong....
I hope a/c 300 and two hydro-sponge IV is good for 60gal. Hehe. :-[
Back to fish condition now, all are good. Color come back, and swim around the tank sometime. But it still nervous to my motion, hope those get better later.

Any good brand dechlorinator is recommanded?
Keith

[BanMeNot]

Hi Carol, Smokey:
I tested my tank water KH=3, GH=2, ph=6.6, NITRATE=0. I think that is too soft for discus, right? How can I bring that up? My trap water is KH=3, GH=2.5, ph=7.6
Those are better after i move them to 60gal. But doesn't swim up when I am feeding like they were. ??? Those don't swim around tank when light is on, but those act normal at dim light. And got nervous when I walk-by. Are those still stressed? Help, thx.

Keith

[Carol_Roberts]

I don't know very much about soft water. Your water is perfect for breeders and I think jsut fine for juveniles as long as you do daily water changes so the minerals are not used up.
Carol :heart1:

[Pick]

BMN,

I have water conditions very similar to yours. It sounds to me like there is quite a possibility that you have no bacterial filtration because of chlorine. I recommend moving them all to the 60G with all of your Aquaclears running on it. Place one of your used sponges in the other Aquaclear to help speed the process (hopefully it has some bacteria growing on it). Then as others have said, change 30% to 50% of your water DAILY, at least for a while. And add the 1T/10G non iodized salt to your replacement water. Any Local Fish Store should have a reasonably priced dechlorinator. Always dechlorinate your tapwater before putting it in the tank. You can't have nitrates if you dont have the bacteria to convert the ammonia to nitrites first!.

TC

[Smokey]

Every thing sounds better.now. The disucs will take some time to get used to their new home.!! Let them aclimatize
and they should start to respond. Your water sounds ok, let the discus get used to it before you start to fool around with it. Like BMN said , and I emphasize. de-chlorinate the water>>>>>. Keep the lights low and feed the disuc by hand
. Let the discus eat from your fingers. that way they get used to you and will swim up to you when ever you come around.

Smokey

75-90% water changes daily!!! For atleast a month , IMO would do it all the time. Clean water keeps the fish happy.

Miles :)

[Smokey]

Good advice; Miles.
Sometimes hobbiest forget that clean fresh water is the best medicine if all!!!
It is repeated over and over and over , a healthy environment - healthy DISCUS .
8)