Inbred fish?

[NickK]

If I buy multiplier fry from a breeder (all from the same parents), can these fish pair off and breed? Or is that considered inbreeding, and not acceptable practice? Do the breeders here require pairs to be from different sources?

Nick

[Liz_Streithorst]

I asked this question of Cary. He told me that you can go to F4 with fish (breeding sibling to sibling for 4 generations) Be sure to ask the breeder how inbred the fish that you are getting from him are. If they are already very inbred you will want to breed them to an unrelated fish. If they are a product of an outcross or only F1s of F2s you are OK.

Liz

[Rod]

Inbreeding aligns genes meaning that traits are concentrated into the line. On the one hand this is good as it allows us to create very similar appearing discus after a few generations, on the flip side it also concentrates unwanted genes into the line so that unless one is very careful about the brood stock deteriation can setin very quickly. I see nothing wrong with inbreeding for many generations as long as you are very very selective about the breeding fish's quality.

[limige]

i've got a few fish were the stress bars are alittle messed up, i understand this is from inbreeding. is it still ok to breed them or should they be considered culls if you want to breed quality fish. meaning should they be outcrossed or crossed off?

[limige]

they fish on the right for example

[Carol_Roberts]

The red turk pair I won in the contest were unrelated and many of the babies had less than perfect bars. I wondered if it might be due to my harder water and high pH?

I would imagine you'd have to have perfect bars to win at Duisberg. You don't see the stress bars in most adult discus very often, so I guess it's personal preference.
Carol :heart1:

[limige]

maybe it's just a common genetic fluke? i was told inbreeding, any other opions/thoughts?

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

You see uneven, or broken stress bars in a fair number of wild fish also, I don't feel this is a genectic weakness and a reason not to breed domestic fish.
Of course if I saw two indentical fish that I liked one with nice even bars and one with broken bars I would buy the one with the even bars, but in my opinion this is just a cosmetic issue.
Dennis

Nick,
I agree with Dennis 100% on this one. F1's and F2's are fine. You need to cross them out if you go any further.

HTH
Miles

if you're a good discus keeper then you should never see the bars on your fish anyway!!!!! ;D

j/k....so it was a bad attempt at a joke, i appoligize

[limige]

well brad event the best breeder will have stressed fish on new arrivals and the fish showing their bars.....which is the case in the pic i posted, that was the night i brought them home from toronto.

i did get your joke just making a point.

[Rod]

The amount of broken bars vary from spawn to spawn even from the same pair. i have come to believe that it is due in part to the water parameters at the time of fertilization and is not an inbreeding fault. What i call a "nailed" spawn is when the fry are almost all perfect, if there is a larger % of bad bars then i will cull them. It is not uncommen to find wild discus with uneven and broken bars, even a number of bars other that 9 are found in wild discus and i doubt much inbreeding occurs in the wild. A small % of uneven bars are prob just a normal genetic variation in discus, but when the % gets high then you have to consider altering the water parameters for the next spawn to attempt to correct the problem.

JMO

[April]

hmmm.....interesting...never heard that.. i'll have to see how my fry look. : ) think i might need help culling. can one culll from far away?

[Jason]

Rod is 100% correct, It all comes down to the quality of the line, and the selections the breeder makes.

I've seen a Schmidt-Focke line, that was brought to F10 with very little defective fry, because the breeder was very, very selective and kept the line strong by culling heavily.

and I've seen F2 and F3's that were not culled properly and even out-crossing to wilds and unrelated lines could'nt help the strain.

whack those crappy fry, don't keep'em and don't sell'em.

[brewmaster15]

HI,
I agree with Dennis here, The broken stress bars have nothing to do withtoo much in breeding as many wilds show this trait, and in breeding among the wilds is not likely.

-al

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

This is more of a queston that an answer.
Every one says they doubt much inbreeding occurs in the wild,
How do you arrive at this statement.
I know that most fish in the wild stay in groups of the same size (age) all thier lives and this would mean siblings would most likely stay together and even pair off together.
Dennis

[vinson]

It is difficult to judge whether broken stress bars is not a genetic defect due to inbreeding or linebreeding. I am interested to know if there are sciencific record of this. I have a pair with broken bars that gave me almost 100% perfect stress bar charactertics. At the same time, a nice pair that pass on broken bar gene to percentage of the fries. ::)

In wild, as rightly pointed out, each clan stayed within their own habitural environment, generations of inbreeding could occur. While mother nature does its own culling, only the strongest survival to continue the bloodline.

Inbreeding beyond F4 would lead to weak gene. Selective inbreeding or linebreeding and outcrossing can enhance charactistics and stablise the genetics buildup. Breeder has to monitor progress of its breeding program to achieve good result. Nevertheless, it is a calculated risk game, and part of learning as we are trying to play the role of mother nature.

I AGREE 100% WITH DENNIS


I ONLY BELIEVE IN 5 TYPES OF DISCUS

WILD BROWN,WILD BLUE,WILD GREEN,WILD HECKEL,AND WILD CROSS.


IMO AND IN MANY OTHERS AFTER DISCUS FRY ARE PARENT RAISED IN THE WILD THEY DO THEIR BEST TO STAY IN A GROUP. REMEBER EVERYONE THERE IS SAFTY IN NUMBERS.
THE ONLY THING SPLITTING UP THE GROUP WOULD BE PREDITORS AND FLOODING.

SO IF YOU PUT YOUR MIND TO IT AND GIVE A LITTLE THOUGHT
HOW DID THESE 5 TYPES DOMINATE THE RIVERS WITH OUT ANY INBREEDING?

AGAIN IMO I BELIEVE MANY OF THE WILD DISCUS THAT ARE COUGHT IN GROUPS ARE LICKLY BROTHER AND SITER TO A CERTAIN EXTENT.

WHEN I BREED I ONLY WORK UP TO F4 THEN OUTCROSS.
CULLING IS ALOT OF WORK AND SO IS RAISEING. NO TIME TO RAISE UP 200 FRY WITH ONLY 30 BEING WORTH THE THE RIDE.

TAKECARE,
CARY GLD!

Who is this Cary guy and why does he think he knows so much??? He only has like 4 posts....

[Chris-C]

Yeah Brad,'
and wazzup with his spellin ;) ;) ;)

Just Kidding Cary
Nice of you to stop by and say Hello

Chris

[fcdiscus]

Whoever- I agree with him and with Dennis and with Al! Frank :D

I agree with Dennis and Al...but this guy that says he's from GLD or something thinks he knows too much. I bet he doesn't even have a breeding pair...