what can lower kh in the aquarium?

[mas]

hey everyone, well continuing the "marcus finally starts dealing with chloromine/ammonia in his tap water saga" i just wanted to ask about what factors in a fishtank can lower the kh?

some background. i recently switched to prime to treat my tap water. im probably uncessarily using 4x the recommended dose. ive been doing larger water changes after some postive reactions from my fish after switching to prime, (it definitely must be converting the ammonia to ammonium (i think)). they seem happer and alive after the water changes again.

but this morning i woke up and the school of threadfin rainbows in my little tank were all dead. so i checked all the water parameters and nothing was unusual save the ph. my small tank was at 6.6 and my large tank was at 6.4, which is unusual for me as usually they're at 7 or above. after reading a bit and doing a kh test, the clue was right there, both tanks had a kh of 1 degree! (the test solution didnt start to turn blue) i tested the tap water and it had a kh of 3, and also some water with the same 4x dose (aged for about 4 hours) and the kh also showed up as 3.

the discus seemed the same as usual.. but in case it gets worse, am just trying to understand whats going on.

thanks in advance,
.marcus

hey,
I think what you want to do is raise the KH in your aquarium to prevent the ph crashes. Add some baking soda to your water. About 1 tsp./10 gallons should raise the KH one degree, so I'd at 2 tsp/10 gallons to raise it up to 3. I think you're using too much prime too.

Brad

[Ivan]

Is that TABLE spoon or TEA spoon?

TEA spoon....it's a little different for everyone's water, so you just have to experiment. Now that I think about it, it may be 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons. Just do some experimenting

[mas]

cool, thanks.

will try some adding some ph up stuff (which i think is bicarb soda) to the tank. the ph is still a bit low in it. will do it slowly over a few days.

yeh i think so too. now im trying about 1.5x just to be safe.

thanks for your help,
.marcus

could u put a cycled filter in your storage tank and then just add a decholinator to break down chlorine and let the filter get the ammonia? Or does it not work like that? I'm no water expert.

[mas]

from those archive links further up i think that would do the trick. the only thing youd have to be careful of then is the nitrates.

chloromine sucks.

[mas]

ahh just found an answer to this question in the ph threads, brewmaster mentioned that acids made during biological filtration can consume ph buffers..?? anyone know if this effect is significant?

or what else can cause the ph to fall / crash?

thanks,
.marcus

[Wolf]

Ph fluctuations will occur also once the co2 is aired out of the water.

Here is what I do to my water that contains ammonia out of the tap at your same levels yours does. I store and airate it in a barrel for 24 hours. I use a chloramine remover (use recoimmended dosage don't over do it) and then I use a cycled sponge filter in the storage container to convert the ammonia. Be sure to add your chloramine remover before you refill the storage container. You don't want to kill the bacteria in the cycled sponge. Test your water 24 hours later and you should have no ammonia in your storage water and you can them add it to the tank.

Your fish will start liking water changes again soon after. I noticed if I add the treated water to my tank before the sponge filter breaks down the ammonia, the fish will be skittish for a few hours until the ammonia is broken down by the main tank filter. Anyway, this works for me and I have fish breeding and about 30 1 week old fry out of my city tap water which is supposed to be horrible for discus.

It took me a few months and reading around here to figure out this system and ever since I have my fish have been happy with the water.

[Steve_Warner]

ahh just found an answer to this question in the ph threads, brewmaster mentioned that acids made during biological filtration can consume ph buffers..?? anyone know if this effect is significant?

or what else can cause the ph to fall / crash?

thanks,
.marcus


Hi all,
Marcus, The Nitric acids produced via Nitrification are really not that significatnt if you have a good buffering system established in the tank. When an acid is produced, Alkalinity will counteract(buffer) it and render it neutralized. The process of Denitrification(NitrAte reduction) keeps the whole buffering system going by freeing the Calcium ion contained in Calcium Nitrate, thus opening it up for eventual morphing(by bonding with Carbonic acid) into Calcium Hydrogen Carbonate(potential acid buffer) and the whole process is maintained. The addition of acids in greater amounts than can be "processed" by the system is what will make the pH fall, depending on the amount injected into the water column. It is when a system gets completely flooded with acids when the entire system collapses and a pH crash occurs. This can happen when the Alkalinity is VERY LOW and the process cannot keep up with the amount of acids being produced, or when there is a HUGE amount of acid injected into the water, such as a Co2 cylinder accidental purging, etc. The buffering process might sound confusing at first, but when it is understood, it is really quite ingenious! Ain't nature great! HTH


Steve

Ok, the water man (Steve) has arrived, so i won't post any more on this topic...lol Steve has helped me out several times and can talk circles around me about water. Listen to him.

Well since Steve is around, I would like to ask someting.

I have tried once to bring the kH up from 1 to 3.
using Bakingsoda. I had as result that it stayed there for a very short time. After reserching the Internet I read somewere (I think at the Krib) that BackingSoda is only 24hrs active and then loses it's buffering.
Is that true ??

Thanks for the resonse

Ronald

[brewmaster15]

I'll jump in here... :)
baking soda... is sodium bicarbonate. The Bi-carb gives you your buffer in the tank. Sodium Bicarb dissociates quickly in water, if you want a more long lasting buffer for your kH. You need to use Calcium carbonate. Limestone, crushes shells etc...some salt water Kh preps also will work.




brewmaster mentioned that acids made during biological filtration can consume ph buffers..?? anyone know if this effect is significant?
can be very significant unless there is sufficient buffer in the water to counter the acid production!!! (basically what Steve said! ;) ) for example RO water (has no buffering capability) in a tank with many discus(=much biological activity), can drop from 6.5 to below 3 in as little as a day!!! when acids are titrated against their buffers, once the buffer is consumed the pH drops rapidly.


hth,
al

Just to add on to what Al said, you may want to watch what you use if this is on breeding tanks. Calcium Carbonate will raise the GH rougly one degree for every degree KH it raises it. This could cause bad hatch rates if you put a lot in. Other than that it works great. How long does Calcium Carbonate hold it's buffering power? If you change water daily, though, u really don't need more than 24 hours of buffering.

Thanks for clearing this up guys.

Ronald