Discus Newbie, be gentle...

[soylent_john]

Hey all, John here, making my first official post on what will probably become my most visited website. Technically, I'm not even a newbie yet. I've been keeping fish since i was about six, and I even worked at a pet store for a few years before heading off to university. But I've never considered undertaking the challenge of the discus until I got a 37 gallon show tank for christmas, complete with one of those eclipse 3 hoods. I've been surfing non-stop since I got it, trying to figure out what I want in it, and spent a bit of money getting it all decorated how i wanted it. Then I decided on discus... I had about a third of a local pet stores stock of plants in my tank, and I had a 55 watt compact flourecent on order, so they weren't to happy when i came back telling them I wanted a bare tank for discus. So I spent about 6 hours taking out the plants, removing all the gravel (which is surprisingly hard), and making a few huge water changes with the only bucket i could find... a 1 gallon ice cream pale. But thats all behind me now, and I'm ready to dive in. First question... what the heck do I do now? I have a dozen zebra danios in there to cycle it (they'll be returned to the great porcelain gods when they are of no furthre use), a 200 watt ebo-jager heater, a complete set of test kits, and a lot of learning to do. How many can i put in my tank? How do I keep them happy? How do I keep them alive? What should i feed them? What should my water conditions be? Where should I get them? What kinds should I get? I have about a million different answers to all these questions from the million discus web pages i've visited, but a lot of them are old. I think thats all for now, thanks for indulging me in my stupid-long post, and thanks in advance for your answers. Oh, also, how many of you are locals? I know april is, but is there anyone else?

-John

[April]

Hi john and welcome. got your email..i will reply in the morning.
but....to make it short....bare bottom is what you need. especially to start. you would have nothing but problems in a small tank with plants and co2 and just learning to keep discus. and to be honest.....a bigger tank is better. but...you could start some small juvies in there...but then youd have to keep your eyes open for a bigger tank. and with that tank youd need to do large changes daily. you really need to learn to know their mannerisms etc.
but...for sure i think you need to try discus. you will love them.
keep reading. ;D
we are ordering...but not for a few weeks or so.

[Debo]

Why would you flush the danios :'( :'( I would think you could return them to your pet store. There is a way to do a fishless cycle. Does anyone know where where that is located?
Deb

[Discusgeo]

Here is how you can do the fishless cycle of your aquarium that I copied and pasted with permission from Chris Cow ccow@dclchem.com
Ph.D. Organic Chemistry

George
I also placed this article in the library as I have seen this talked about recently

Advantages of the fishless cycle:

The advantages of this process over the traditional method of cycling a tank using a few small, hardy fish to get the bacterial colonies up and running all result from "front-end loading" the tank. The amount of ammonia added is far above that generated by a reasonable number of cycling fish, resulting in faster growth of the bacterial colonies, and larger colonies when you're finished. In practical terms, this means that your tank cycles faster (reports of anywhere from 10 days to 3 weeks, depending on the fish tank... compared to average of 4-6 weeks for traditionally cycled tanks), and that you can fully stock a tank when the cycle is complete. This latter point is of particular interest to keepers of african cichlids or other aggressive fish. If these fish are all added together as juveniles, they're much more tolerant of each other than if they're added in small groups after the first fish have established their territories. Of course, another big advantage is that no fish are subjected to high ammonia or nitrite concentrations, eliminating mortalities and ammonia/nitrite related illnesses which frequently occur in new tanks.

Alternative Recipe:

While the original recipe works quite well (4-5 drops NH3 / 10 gal / day until nitrite peaks, then reduce to 2-3 drops / 10 gal / day), it does NOT take into account varying concentrations of ammonia that are available. ACS grade ammonia, which I was using, is ~28% NH3, while most household cleaner grades vary from 4-10%, a fairly wide variation in concentration. Bottles that have been left open for long periods of time will be lower in concentration, as the NH3 gas escapes back into the atmosphere. With that in mind, I'd like to propose a different recipe, which was suggested by D_Man and others (thanks!): Add ammonia to the tank initially to obtain a reading on your ammonia kit of ~5 ppm. Record the amount of ammonia that this took, then add that amount daily until the nitrite spikes. Once the nitrite is visible, cut back the daily dose of ammonia to ½ the original volume. One advantage of this method is that the ammonia spike occurs immediately... when adding 4-5 drops/10 gal/day, it could take 4-5 days before the ammonia reaches the same levels. This should result in an acceleration of the entire process, though by how much (on average) remains to be seen.

Sources of Bacteria:
While it is probable that the bacteria required for the conversion of ammonia and nitrite to nitrate exist at very low levels in most uncycled tanks, it greatly accelerates the process to inoculate the tank with a large dose of healthy bacteria to get things started. Good sources of beneficial bacteria are ranked from best to least:
1) Filter material (floss, sponge, biowheel, etc.) from an established, disease free tank.
2) Live Plants (preferrably potted, leave the rockwool on until cycling is finished). Crypts or amazon swords are good choices, and not too demanding.
3) Gravel from an established, disease free tank. (Many lfs will give this away if asked nicely)
4) Other ornaments (driftwood, rocks, etc.) from an established tank.
5) Squeezings from a filter sponge (any lfs should be willing to do this...)

There are also a number of commercial bacterial supplements (Cycle, Stress-Zyme, etc.) available. IMHO, without getting on a soapbox, these have very little to no effect, and are best left on the shelf. If you want to try it, go ahead, but I believe that any of the above options will be more effective, and most if not all of them will be cheaper.

Sources of Ammonia:

The most difficult part of the fishless cycling procedure, according to many postings on the message boards, involves finding a good source of Ammonia. Ammonia used should be free of surfactants, perfumes, and colourants. Unfortunately, not everyone has access to ACS grade ammonium hydroxide. Always read the ingredients on the bottle. The best sources for Pure or Clear Ammonia are discount grocery stores or hardware stores. Often, the no-name brand is the stuff you're looking for. Some other people have reported success with the following brand names of ammonia: Top Crest or Whirl Clear Ammonia. To paraphrase RTR: If it doesn't list the ingredients, or say Clear Ammonia (or Pure Ammonia or 100% Ammonia, or Pure Ammonium Hydroxide), then leave it on the shelf and look elsewhere. Shake the bottle if you're not sure about it... ammonia with surfactants will foam, while good ammonia will not.

Water Changes and Ammonia Removing Chemicals:

A large water change (50-70%) should be done before adding any fish to the tank to lower nitrate levels, which can be a pain to bring down later. When changing the water during a fishless cycle, do NOT use dechlorinators that also sequester ammonia, such as the very popular Amquel. I have heard from at least one individual who did everything right with regards to cycling her tank using this method... the tank cycled quickly, then she did a water change, then added a reasonable fishload the following day with more than adequate filtration, and observed both an ammonia and a nitrite spike. The only explanation that I could think of after questioning her extensively led back to the Amquel. In a normal, established fish tank, the ammonia is being generated nearly constantly... in a fishless cycle however, the ammonia is added as a daily dose... IMO, it's concievable (though not really provable unless a lot more people experienced identical problems) that the Amquel temporarily deprived the bacteria of its food source, causing a minor die-back in the colony at the worst possible time... right before adding her fish. To be on the safe side, use a simple chlorine/chloriamine remover which does not affect your ammonia levels.

By similar logic, any other ammonia removing chemicals (eg. Ammo-lock) or resins (Amrid) should also be avoided while cycling... they will affect the cycle, extending it's duration or otherwise adversely affecting the bacterial colonies.

Too Much Ammonia?:

It IS possible to add too much ammonia to the tank (generally several times the amounts suggested in either recipe), as some individuals discovered by mistake (thanks Boozap). What happens in this case is that the ammonia will spike very far off the chart then the nitrite will spike as well (also way off the chart), and it will continue to spike for a very long time. Why? There are a couple of possibilities... the first is that the filter media and surfaces in the tank or oxygen levels are simply insufficient to grow and maintain a bacterial colony massive enough to convert all of the ammonia and all of the nitrite to nitrates. Another likely possibility is that the ammonia levels are high enough to inhibit growth (through a biofeedback mechanism) of the bacteria rather than promoting it. The solution is quite simple, however. If you realize that you've added way too much ammonia simply do a water change, or if necessary a series of water changes to bring the ammonia and/or nitrite levels back into the readable range on your test kit. Then proceed as normal with daily additions of ammonia until the tank is cycled.

Other Uses:
Fishless cycling is also very applicable to hospital/quarantine or fry growout tanks... when not in use, a maintenance dose of ammonia (eg. 2-3 drops/10 gallons) can be added daily to keep the tank cycled and ready for new fish indefinitely. Simply stop the addition the day before you want to buy your fish, take ammonia and nitrite tests to be certain that the levels are still zero, and do a water change to reduce nitrates.

Future of Fishless Cycling:

The future of this method is up to those of you out there that have tried this and like the method. If you do, please continue to promote it, whether on the internet, at your lfs, or at fish club meetings. Feel free to print off this or the original article for education purposes; the more people that know about this method the better. I'd be very happy if lfs caught on to this idea as have fishkeepers on the internet, and recommended it to newbies as a safer, cheaper way to do things. IMO, the number of people that didn't get frustrated in the early stages and thus continued with fishkeeping would make it worth their while. Please continue to give me feedback on the method, or to ask any questions you may have about it.

Written by Chris Cow ccow@dclchem.com
Ph.D. Organic Chemistry

If you are in a hurry to get your tank going and have $20 bucks sitting around you could get Bio-Spira and it would have your tank cycled overnight. What it is is the live bacteria. It's kept refrigerated at some local fish stores. It does work, but may not be the option you're looking for.

Brad

[soylent_john]

Hey all, thanks for all the good info. Maybe the zebras will survive after all... The reason I was going to flush them was because even if i had my tank cycled within the 30 day return period, I want to keep them longer, just in case. And the pet store I got them from doesn't even want them if I just give them back. I suppose I could plan some sort of covert operation by which i return them to the store, with no one the wiser, but with this fishless cycle, I may not need to. Next question... Where should I get them? And how much should I expect to pay? I've been looking at the great lakes discus site, are these pretty much standard prices? How many should I get? I will be looking for a larger tank, I'll probably have a 72 gallon within a year. And whats the best way to soften water?

[Ryan]

First thing is first, what are your water parameters like once you let the water "age" (aerating it overnight in a bucket or container). In fact, for the heck of it, post your water parameters straight from the tap and aged, and let's see the comparison. Most of the time, the pH of tap water will either increase or decrease after aging, depending on the chemistry of your water. We're looking for info like hardness and pH.

The reason for asking is that in most cases, people have no need to alter their water chemistry for discus. For growing out discus to adulthood, soft water with a low pH is not an absolute must. In fact, it has been pointed out that there are some advantages to hard water with juvenile discus. It is best to keep your water parameters STABLE... trying to alter your pH and such with chemicals may cause your parameters to fluctuate, and this can stress your fish if it's constantly happening.

You will need to have a way of completing pretty large water changes each day. For a tank that's only 37 gallons, juvenile discus will outgrow that in a short time. So keep your eye out for something like a 55 gallon. Check out garage sales, classifieds, pet shops, etc. You can often find really good deals.

I think Cary's prices reflect most breeders' prices. There are some out there that are more expensive, some less expensive. I think the main thing is to know what you're looking for when you order discus so that you can be specific and tell the breeder exactly what you expect. You'll also want to be familiar with what to look for so that you can ask the breeder for pictures of the fish you're buying (if they can be provided).

Discus are not cheap fish. I think this reflects the time, food, etc. put into them. Little discus have big appetites. Water changes are crucial (trust me, I just learned that first-hand)! You'll need something bigger than a one-gallon ice cream pail :) You may even look into buying a water pump with a hose. I just got one for about $40 or so--all I do is plug my siphon hose into it, run the outlet hose to the bathtub, plug it in and watch it change water for me.

Most importantly, hang around the site and ask questions. Read as much as you can. There have been lots of threads in the past few months from new discus keepers asking for advice. It is better to prepare yourself as much as possible now, and save yourself heartache and headache later. There's a "search" feature at the top of the page. You may try putting in keywords and looking for topics that interest you. If you can't find results, post a thread and ask us.

Remember, discus keeping is subjective, and there are always multiple ways of doing everything. You will get conflicting advice sometimes, but ultimately you have to read everything and decide what is best for you. Also, once you get your discus you can start to change things and modify stuff to make it more comfortable for yourself. That's the best way to learn.

Don't get discouraged. Discus keeping is a challenge and sometimes seems hopeless in the beginning, but with some effort and patience it can happen. Besides, that's all part of the fun (until you start breeding discus, then it's a whole new set of challenges... ;D)

Ryan

[soylent_john]

Okay, water testing complete (for the most part)

In My Tank...

pH = 6.8 - 7.0
NH3 = 2ppm
KH = 2
GH = 0

Fresh Tap Water

pH = 6.8 - 7.0
KH = 0
GH = 0

I have some water aging right now, so I'll test that when its nice and old and post it up here. I wouldn't completely trust the pH of my tank as it is, because until recently I had a large piece of bog wood in there, and that may have lowered it. One thing I do know is that my water is packed with chloramines. I plan on getting one of those jungle python contraptions, unless anyone says otherwise. I've also considered getting a 20 gallon tank and a water pump. I can suck out about 18 gallons from the 37 with the python, pump it back in from the 20 gallon thats been aged and treated from the day before, then fill the 20 gallon back up. Does this sound like a good plan to everyone? Also, Cary, i think you may have a new customer, mostly because I've been reading a lot of your posts and you seem like a nice guy. I've been reading this site for pretty much 30 hours straight, with a few hours for sleep, and i've been surfing for about a week, so I know the answers to most of my questions, I just want get as many opinions as possible and avoid out dated information. I also want to assure everyone i am NOT in a hurry. I know these are expensive fish, and I know I don't have much money (although i just got a new job, so that will soon change). I want to make sure I have my tank conditions perfect before i start, and i want to make sure i'm prepared for anything that may happen. I don't plan on letting these fish die, although i realize thats something that could happen. I'm not an impulse buyer, so you don't need to worry about that. Ryan, when you say they'll outgrow my tank fast, how fast is fast? A few months? A year? Like i said, I'm aiming for a 72 gallon. I'll probably use the 20 gallon as a wet/dry, and this 37 as my refill tank.

[Ryan]

By the time discus are a year old, they should be pretty large young adults. They may grow some after a year, but at the end of 12 months you should have some pretty large fish. So I probably wouldn't wait a year on the bigger tank. You might have a few months.

I say this because discus are shoaling fish and do better in groups. Most will agree that 6 is a good minimum to start with. So 6 discus in a 37 gallon is going to be tightly packed in a few months time. For comparison sake, realize that adult discus breeding pairs are kept in 29 gallon tanks, and that's just two fish. Now imagine cramming 4 additional fish into that tank if it were only 8 gallons bigger.

I kept some little juvies in a smaller tank until they hit about 3" then they were moved into a 55 gallon. But, if you order from a breeder like Cary, the fish will most likely be that size when you get them, so you may want to ask for other opinions on the tank size/number of fish thing.

By the way, your pH is perfect in my opinion. I'd kill to have water like that. My pH is 7.6 - 7.8 and my TDS is up around 250ppm.

Ryan

[soylent_john]

Kill for water like mine eh? Well, I happen to have a few enemies, and I've also recently aquired several large barrels... Maybe we can work something out. A few months you say... Well, whats money for if not to spend! I'll start hunting right away. This is going to be a big diy project, maybe I should take a gander at that area of the forum. Does anyone sell smaller fish, or do you think Cary would send some smaller ones my way? I'd like as much time as I can get. But anyways, lets asssume i get 6 3 inch fish. Will they be happy for say... 4 months if I do daily 50% water changes and keep all my water tip top? Because 4 months I can do. Then they move into a 72 gallon and prosper...

[bottle-blonde]

am i the only one who's tired of the bare-bottom dictatorship? bare-bottom just is not the be all and end all only option for discus.

[bottle-blonde]

i'm going to start calling millitant bb keepers benito barebottoms! lol ;D

[RandalB]

Don't have to call me that, I do both! BB and PT.

I do agree with BB for babies though. Too messy otherwise!


RandalB

[bottle-blonde]

i hear ya. i guess it depends on how many fish you have in what size tank anyway. if you have a ton of discus bb is the way to go i guess. also, i only have the one tank right now but i'd imagine that if you have a whole discus room that bb would be way faster and easier to deal with.

[soylent_john]

Thats all I'm really after, simplicity. I don't think discus need to be surrounded by plants to be enjoyed. Sure, a well planted discus tank looks amazing, but the extra time and money it takes could be better spent (like buying gas so i can get to work). April, let me know when you're ready to do your next order, and get my hard earned money in.

[April]

John. our water is great...but for growing out i add kent ro right to add minerals. our water is essentially ro water. not enough minerals to grow babies and not enough hardness to keep our ph from crashing. daily water changes keeps the ph stable. otherwise it will slide.
and one other thing....never try to use amquel!!! it will crash your ph within a few water changes!! it has a warning way down at the bottom of the bottle. warning . not to be used with alkaline unstable water. i did..and had a major crash.
use prime or a regular dechlor nothing fancy.
cary has a big top secret sale coming up....in about 3 weeks....and also another order coming in from california. that you can order from.
i'll try and get the scoop .
patience and the word wait will be your reward for healthy fish . and nice fish.

[bottle-blonde]

i'm in vancouver too and i got my fish from a lfs that got them from a local breeder. i bought them when they were only 1 inchers (wayyyyy too young but i didn't know any better at the time). they've grown up to be amazing looking but it seems like that breeder is only selling that fish store his culls now. they're all egg-shaped with bulging eyes and are way over-priced for their quality. point being, there are some good local breeders too but it seems like they prefer to sell fish stores their culls. it would be great to get ahold of some of them to try to pick them out and buy direct. april do you have any leads on local breeders?

[soylent_john]

Top secret eh? Sounds enticing! As far as amquel goes, you and me are in the same boat. I hate amquel, despite the fact that its all the pet store used back when i worked at one, and I was actually told to reccomend it. A lot of people in abbotsford are on well water, which is really hard, so its fine for them, bit 90% of the people coming in were on city water. Despite getting rid of ammonia (if you have that much ammonia in your tank, you're either cycling, in which case you shouldn't be trying to get rid of it, or you're doing something to which amquel will only be a temporary solution), it really does kill your pH. We were always having pH problems, but I think my boss was on the amquel payroll, because he never wanted to change. Prime is made by seachem isn't it? I've never used it myself, but I've been reading the posts. I plan on doing daily water changes, but I can't say I've seen this "kent ro right". What is it? powder? liquid? salt? I'll definitely be getting in on the sale from cary in 3 weeks, so keep me posted!

-John

[bottle-blonde]

kent ro is great. i add it to my tank and my babies grew three inches in three months (not including the tail). it adds salts like potassium, calcium, sodium and magnesium to the water which are important in making the fishies bones grow. for declors/destressers i've had a lot of luck with aqua plus and the sera brand declor. sera's more expensive and they both seem to do the same job so i recommend the aquaplus by nutrafin. anyway, kent ro gets my thumbs up too. :)

[April]

kent ro right is to add minerals back to ro water. but good for our water. its a powder. or...i have a recipe that calls for equal parts of salt ...epsom salt and calcium carbonate.

[soylent_john]

Speaking of calcium carbonate... I think i ate to much pepperoni. So I mix myself up a nice batch of calcite and epsom salts. How much do I add, and when? Any other household tricks I should know that'll save me money? By the way, I already got a good lead on a 90 gallon, and I have the perfect place to put it. This is shaping up to be one of my more expensive hobbies... Oh well, at least its not cocaine.

-John

[BlueTurquoise]

John, sorry to but in but to me it sounds like the biggest thing that you will have to worry about above most (and I am not sure if you have or have not realised it or not as I only briefly skimmed this thread) is you will have to worry about water changes; the single most important and time consuming thing about discus. I suggest you figure out a solution that is best for you that is consistent, repeatable with as little effort as possible. If you are serious about keeping discus healthy I would suggest daily water changes.

Anyway whatever you decide to do (R/O, home water chemistry etc) just make sure that you can repeat your process daily and keep water perameters consistent above all else. The setup and water change process is a VERY large portion on the discus hobby, the fish itself is really is only a small portion of the whole picture...

Bare bottom is a good way to start out, when you are confident then perhaps you can try a planted tank but it is a fair bit more work I'd have to say... (it is already alot of work with just bb!)

Sorry if it is all old news to you but basically you will have to get more serious water change equipment than just an icecream bucket! ;D I have soo many buckets, hoses, filters and other support equipment, I am thinking of renting an extra garage space to store everything LOL! And I only have 5 fish!!! lol Then again every one else has a whole house full of fish "junk" hehe

Cheers!
Chong

[soylent_john]

Ha, I don't consider it butting in when I ask for help and someone gives it to me. Thats what I'd call... braining in. I do hav e apretty elaborate plan (for me at least) to deal with the water changes. I'll get a spare 20 gallon tank, fill 'er up with water and treat it so its all nice and happy, then i drain 20 gallons out of my tank using a python. Then I pump the water out of the 20 gallon into my tank and fill the 20 gallon back up and treat it! That way i get 20 gallons of day old and treated water every day. I'll do the same thing once I get my 90 gallon (the next size i'm aiming for now), but I'll be using my 37 to do the water changes instead of the 20 (for obvious reasons). I'll have the 20 to make into a neato wet/dry filter! Does this sound like a good plan to everyone?

:guitarist: :singer: :drummer:

[April]

sounds ok to me John. but...you can use that 20 gallon for a hospital tank or quarantine tank and the bigger one for a pair...and use a barrel or rubbermaid for water storage. ;)
and...i use a magdrive pond pump for changing water in and out. with a rubber garden hose on the end i buy by the foot from canadian tire.
way faster. plug it in it sucks it out. then reverse and pump in.
but sounds to me like your getting all organized. ;D 8)

[BlueTurquoise]

Question April, do you have an inline filter of some sort when sucking water out? I have heard this and that about getting solid wastes on the impeller...

What Magdrive model do you have? I am about to buy one and need advice on the power output that I should get...

Ta,
Chong

[April]

hi chong. just make sure it rises over 7 feet or not enough to pump up to the tank. i dont have any problems with the waste on the impellor. its very powerful.
and it also comes with a sponge for the intake so you dont get circles on your discus. which i do. but they heal up in a day
i try to aim it to the bottom of the tank and i use it to vacuum by moving it along the bottom.

[BlueTurquoise]

I see, what if you attach a Python to the end of it? still get circles? (*cringe*)

I will have to look at sponge ends then hehe

Thanks!
Chong

[April]

yes you can do that chong. get a hose to fit on the intake then onto the python piece. i tried it but never got it organized. but that would be better. easier to clean too if you need to disinfect between tanks. i just stick it in a bucket of bleach or pp and run it for awhile with the end going back into the bucket so it makes a few cycles. but if your pump wasnt in the tank....just the python hose then itd be easier to clean. i just do things the easiest way withouth adding more stuff. lol.