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Jameson
01-10-2003, 12:55 PM
Went to the breeder two days ago and purchased four more discus. 1 Red Royal blue, Two German Red Turq, and One Wattley Turquoise. This man had one INCREDIBLE setup with fish shimmying and breeding in front of my very own eyes, and not just one pair, Three were tending to large hatches of fertilized eggs and fry in 120gal tanks eating beefheart, babies eating slime, babies stuffed in corners, tanks cleaned to perfection... A perfect setup, and he uses the local water (he lives 15 mins away) with the same parameters as mine, and agrees I am doing the right this with acid buffer to lower mine (he uses sodium biphosphate [if I remember]) and that causes blooms in my plant tank.

I had no reasons to not belive his wattley statements as he has doccumentation and pics with the man e.t.c. and his fish are all fargon perfect. He has pairs for $4k I was amazed, I didnt count but there were at least two dozen tanks with large pairs all in some stage of mating. He pairs them in three 200gal tanks then tanks the pairs and they spawn, babies are ALL raised with parents on slime then bbs, to flake/beefheart and treats of bloodworms a couple times a week, then beefheart tetrabits, and the BREEDER told me as they get bigger they will get smart and wait you out for the meaty beefheart or bloodworms, or shrimp. He also told me the size I bought (about 4-5 month old 2.5-3.5" maybe bigger I'm not sure) would NOT eat flake anymore. Well in my tank they gobble it up like candy ONF1/BSplus/Primereef varieties, as well as ONF1 frozen food.

My situation:

55gal planted tank (medium planted)
Driftwood (15"l x 3"-1" tapering width)
PH: 6.2 always-new fish it is 6.0
Hardness: 3deg KH
3deg GH
Temp: 84
Lighting: 130Watt Sealife Compact Fluorescent
Filtration: Fluval 204 w/ Matrix biomedia (2 compartments), lower compartment stuffed with bluebonded filter material, and two spnges fore. The intake is covered with a Filter max small size which is cleaned weekley, sponges squeezed monthly in fluval. I also run a powerhead for an hour on an hour off on the opposite side of tank parallel to gravel with duckbill output that flushes the debris toward pre-filter sponge.
Co2: Power reactor with rio 50 powerhead and 10#bottle.
Water change: Every other day or third day 30% with extensive vaccum of surface. I feed in two small clay high sided dishes the frozen ONF1 and it stays in or near the dish and aids in food not getting lost in gravel. I move the sipon around rooth and use the siphon tube to get the upper half of the gravel OR deeper. I really do this well.

Plants: Cabomba Carolinia
Ruffled Amazon Sword
Amazon Sword
Rotala Indica
Anubias Nana
Giant Saggitaria
Crypt Balanese
Crypt Blassi
Crypt Willisi (?)
Echinodorus Rubin

All of these grow weel in the heat and lighting. In my opinion, as long as they have enough Co2 (I DON't USE MUCH EITHER though I have never tested it it is a couple bubbles a minute in my bubble counter never wanted to wait and watch as the reactor I use uses every last bit) they will survive. The lack of co2 at high temps is the killer of most plants, as well as light needed to use the co2 to grow, and the nutrients like potassium which is most lacking in city waters and is impossible to overdose and lead to algea.
Gravel substrate 1"-2.5" tapering back
Fish: 16 Cardinal Tetras (4 months)
2 Clown Loaches 2"&4"
2 Cories
1 Bristlenose Pleco 3"
1 Clown pleco 1.5"
6-10 Otocinclus (4 months or longer)
6 or more amano shrimp


Discus Fish: LFS =One Pigeonblood 3", One Blue Diamond 2", One Red Turq 2.5", All happy and healthy for over five months now. Breeder fish listed above (four all in the 2.5-3.5" range) for a total of seven.

I removed two discus a 3" PB and a 2.5" wild as they were being meanies. They are in my 30gal quarantine (sponge filter) I lower my tap ph with acid buffer. The discus in my show tank are setting up a pecking order but feeding happily in between. When I have been observing them they are happy and the new ones show usually only the stripe on there heads and no body stripes. They arent fully colored up yet but there patterns are beautiful. The storebought ones were brighter when I bought them months ago from hormone food I think but they lost that but still have nice colors and patterns, the breeder ones will turn out nicer for sure, since I saw daddy and mommy in the first place makes me feel good. And under my bright lighting their turquoise and patterns look insane.

Is this a good water change schedule? The breeder does 20% a day from vaccuming up the debris in his barebottom/sponge setup. Told me if I flip the tank water once a week I am safe. I get no PH fluctuation, Algae requires a swipe or two once a week when i wipe off all sides of tank, then I siphon after that anyway...

Basically I want to know if I am doing the right things to get them on there way. I fertilize with potassium only (flourish) and my plants grow very well, and have been for nearly six months. The tank is setup for ten months with numerous different angelfish. I vortex the water (diatom filter) and mix the gravel up totally every two weeks or more, I havent had algea blooms of any sort in over three months and I think I have my balance figured out with water changes and everything.

What I really want to do is remove the ugly piece of driftwood from the tank as the plants are so beautiful. The driftwood looks ugly to me and I hate having to move it when I clean and just want to get it out of there. Will I experience any PH fluctuation or any water quality suffrage from doing this? Is this wood biologically helping? It has been in there since two weeks after setting up the tank, it is malaysian driftwood which was heavy and dense when I bought it and released tannins into the bucket I soaked it in (it floated for a day) and took a lot of wire brushing and resoaking for a week until i felt safe and it realesed no tannins e.t.c. I know it is a safe piece of wood, but will the tank be safe if I remove it? I dont want it further softening my already soft tap water. I know this is a long one but I had these questions and this place is the one to come for answers IMO.

In closing I have checked many a message board and been lurking here for three months, and you people here are the most knwledgeable on the net about htis subject. And are most willing to help out. I went to a breeder who obviously was a professional, and he told me what I had read here over and over, this proves to me that you have things figured out and it amazes me everyone is so willing to share there information for free. I hope to engage in many furthre discussions here and would like to thank the host and Administrator for having us and mention to him that without all the knowledgeable people who visit and post these message boards for all hobbyists would be for not. Thanks for the time.

Sincerely,

J. Carnes

ChienHsu
01-10-2003, 02:48 PM
Hi Jameson:

Can I know the name and the address of this local breeder?


Thanks

Sincerely,
Chien

fcdiscus
01-10-2003, 02:54 PM
Gotta Be my Buddy Gil Curtin in Shirley. Am I right? Frank ;)

Jameson
01-10-2003, 04:11 PM
Yes, Mr. Curtains has a lovely setup and will be seeing me shortly when I feel ready to stock the 120 I am picking up next week. That is gonna be a Sponge Filter and AC500 arrangement. If E-mailed I will give his phone number and address. This man has one lovely setup and would like to heaer of others experiences with him either here or via e-mail, I will leave mine below.

As for my questions, Should I remove the driftwood? I really want to get that sucker out of there. All of the discus are currently eating like pigs and unfortunately not showing their peaceful nature. They seem to quarrell quite a bit, not much fin nipping, but quarreling for sure. I owe it to the fact that I believe they are establishing a pecking order, but ever since I got started I noticed my fish seem healthy and eating (not only the new ones) and showing all the good signs but they jet at each other all the time like my angelfish did. They never seem to be friendly with each other. I was hoping adding these fish to have 7 would make them more peaceful. Should I take the wood out?

JC

Ryan
01-10-2003, 05:18 PM
Hi Jameson,

You may want to ask folks from the Biotopes & Show Tanks board to come here and read your question. They are probably more familiar with planted setups.

IMO I don't think removing the driftwood would be that big of a deal. It may take your fish awhile to get used to the fact that a change has been made, but I doubt it will have a negative effect on the water chemistry. Maybe there are others who could give you a few reasons as to why I'm right or wrong.

Ryan

allan_mark76
01-10-2003, 05:32 PM
Does anybody have pictures of this breeders set up??? I'm really intrigued as to how he sets up that many breeders within one tank and moves them to their own. All that I can say is "WOW" :o. Good write up by the way....now get them pics ! ! ! ! ;D

A-

Ralph
01-10-2003, 05:51 PM
That is the most amazing description of a tank that I have ever read, it is amazing.
And you have obviously done your reading.
Go ahead and pull the driftwood, after 10 months it is not even putting tannins out.
15% water change per day (did I read that right?) is a little on the light side for young discus, but it is tough to do in a planted tank (which is why many go to bare bottom grow out tanks).
The minimal amounts of algae is a real good sign, you obviously have a good balance of nutrients.
Do you run an air stone at night? It hasn't been proven either way how necessary it is, but to be on the safe side, a lot of us do. The discus will usually let you know though by surface breathing in the morning.
That is the biggest clean up crew I ever heard of and a lot of diversity.
Do you have access to live blackworms? Your discus will thank you for it and they are one of the cleaner foods that you can use (especially in a tank with a substrate).
You have a few very big plants there as I'm sure you know. Is the Anubias in a shaded area, they can get burns with too much light?
I'm sure I didn't do your questions justice, there is a lot of good help here though.
Welcome to Simply, I'm glad you are here.

fcdiscus
01-10-2003, 05:51 PM
Unfortunately, I do not believe Gil is a computer person. What he does is use a large tank to create spawning pairs, and then just puts them into their own 20 gallon tanks to pair off. Nothing unique, but the man has the magic touch! If you know what I mean. Frank

01-10-2003, 09:32 PM
Frank, I met Gil about 7 years ago--great knowledgeable guy!!! Joe ;)

01-11-2003, 01:32 AM
Frank,
And I thought you had the magic touch!!

Miles

Jameson
01-11-2003, 02:35 AM
Thanks for the reply. Yes I can get blackworms locally but prefer not to feed them more than once a month. The source I buy from VERY knwoledgeable LFS gives me blackworms for cheap and large quantity with ALL perfect worms. 7My fish frenzy. But they frenzy over bloodworms/onf1 frozen and brince shrimp too, and flake if not fed for a half day. Are Blackworms really a superior food? BTW I do 30% water changes every 2 or three days with extensive vaccumming of substrate. My plants have no decaying leaves of anykind, I inspect and trim weekly.

My fish do not surface gasp for air at any time, and never have. I have never had a fish do this of any type. I run the output from the fluval through a DIY spraybay that is 5" long with holes aimed in it. It disturbs the surface enough to just start breaking up the film directly on the strongest part of flow. I have to get low and look up to the surface to see the surface film being broken. Again I mentioned I bubble very little co2 into the system and the plants pearl a tiny bit once a week for some reason, that means supersaturated oxygen rich water. The lighting I have plays a big role as well as the nice distribution of plants to get maximum available light and still look cool and give discus fishies maximum room to show off. Just IMO guys thanks for the advice.

JC