Teachers & Scholars

There are teachers in every capacity in society. Some members are teachers, but all members should be scholars. If the capacity to learn is satisfied in totality--then we become brain dead! If I am overstepping my latitude, I am sure I will be made aware of it by the Admin.

Mike Wells put it so eloquently in his thread, " Be careful what you wish for " by his reference to Parrots. There is a wealth of knowledgeable people on this and other boards. However there are those wantabes that are freely giving out bad advice and generic cure alls with reckless abandon. Some information should be deferred and not misquoted to those of experience.

The dissemination of information here affords one and all with the benefits that I and those before me did not have available to us. Strap up the seat belt and enjoy the ride! The Discus Hobby in the Western Hemisphere is riding a wave --until now that has not been realized. One should not provide pertinent information purely upon heresay --but with actual experiences to back it up! Thanks, I had my stand on the dais, Joe ;)

[Pick]

Well said Joe,

I for one am enjoying the reaping of work sown well before I stepped up to the plate. I'm still expending blood, sweat, and tears - but a lot less tears than I would have were it not for those who blazed the trail before me.

Thx (salute)

TC

[brewmaster15]

Hi Joe,
That is a very true piece of writting. I can only add to it by saying that you should always know the source of your information. Just because a thing is posted on board doesn't mean it is true. Mis-informations are just as common as accurate information.

When asking for advice on these boards, you should always look into the credentials of someone before accepting thier advice. You would not use a doctor who is not a doctor, or a mechanic who is not a mechanic, would you? Consider the experience of the person giving the advice , and their reputation.Consider their their professional back ground if it is relevant. Do they understand the reasons why something works or doesn't. Look beyond the advice... Do the pertinent textbooks support the advice, has there been published data to support the advice. How does the rest of the board react to the advice. How does the person giving the advice act when questioned further on it. How does this person act in general dealings on the subject.... These fish cost lots in time and money.... give them the best you can, and their is no substitute for facts and experience.

Lastly, to the one seeking advice. All the experience in the world will not help you solve a probelm if you do not follow the advise to the letter, and carefully explain all the parameter in your tank, and whats going on. One deviation can make the difference in something working for one person, but not another...

Examples...pH, hardness, filtration can all affect medication...
Meds mixings in the tank ( copper and sulfa antibiotics, tetracyclines and KH/salt, using Potassium permanganate in high pH)...all can cause serious probelms in one tank but not another.


Question...question... learn....and then question what you learn, the principals behind it, and then apply it.

-al

[jim_shedden]

Joe : You are so right. That is why I very rarely post anything in the Water section or the Disease section. At this point I feel that I have just enough knowledge to be very dangerous and the last thing that I want is for someone to follow my advise and have a mishap.

Jim

Wow :o My thoughts exactly.

If those that spew hearsay would sit back and realize how fake and sometimes dangerous they look to the knowledgeable people in the international discus community they would think twice about clicking the post button. ::)

You don't have to have be 40yrs old with 50yrs of discus keeping under you belt to be part of a discussion or to post knowledgeable advice. :(

These fish are pretty amazing. Wow what one spawn can do to you... The ego's they create, and the things they make us do and say. :o Sometimes I wonder who is keeping who.

Mike

I agree 100%

But I know brew,Joe,and mike very well. I would only like to state IMO That Joe + Mike Are talking more about Breeders who sell discus not the people that help here. Like Round head allways says Know Discus or NO Discus! But latley its been the more I sell The better I feel if You have Problems You should Vist Here www.simplydiscus.com IME I get more bad info over the phone then what is wrote here.

On the other hand Brew is talking about the people that help here. IMO some of You are doing a fine job Keep up the good work And well said Guy's! ;D

Cary Gld!

[brewmaster15]

Hi Cary,


I get more bad info over the phone then what is wrote here.
- sure glad about that! :)

I can't speak for Mike , and Joe... but as for myself.. I was pretty much talking about this site (And in my opinion theres one heck of an awesome group of knowledgeable people here too. :). My experience with breeders/sellers is limited to the few I trust ;) :)

The point of my post was basically to suggest how to make the most out of this sites vast resources.

yep, You know me pretty good there Cary.

-al

[Carol_Roberts]

I couldn't agree with your more Joe and Mike. The professional breeder/importers work with thousands of discus and numerous pairs. You guys have run acrossed all kinds of things that we small time hobbiests never see due to the sheer volume you deal in.

I've had experience with the basic meds, like metro, prazi, Flubenol, furan and epsom salt, but I've not had much occasion to use antibiotics or fluke meds (even with my own fry). A lot of times all I can tell people to do is make the patient (discus) comfortable and see if gets better. :-\

I have learned a lot from the links Cary has posted, but it would be really wonderful if we had more folks who could actually recognize these viral and bacterial diseases and recommed the correct treatments.

Joe and Mike, I hope to see you both more active in the disease and breeding sections now. ;D

Carol :heart1:

There are so meny different bacteria and protozoan that affect these fish... all causing the same or similar symptoms.

I find it hard for anyone to diagnose these type of problems through there keyboards. With out a diagnostic lab report from someone that has done the cultures do we really know? All you can do is suggest.. By guessing I may be doing more harm then good. Let alone the cost involved obtaining meds that may not even work.

Here lately meny antibotics have become a house hold name with discus keepers, and most have never had a reason to use it, let alone prescribe them to someone else. Things can get confusing for those looking for advise. Esp on a message board. I wish you all could listen in on some of the calls I get. The advice people are getting is ridiculous. (Brew, Cary, Joe I know you get them too)

I think all of the names that were mentioned in this thread participate more then one may think. (IM's, e-mail and phone calls)

[wildthing]

Hear-hear, well spoken all!
:)

Time is the ultimate test. The folks who are serious have been around &/or will be around for a long time, learning through thousands of hours of observation & dealing with problems as they arise and not letting set-backs get in the way.
The only relief for the genuine helpers is that most of the phoneys are easily discouraged & blow through the hobby after a year or so, usually at the first disease problem, when they tend to get wiped out .
All these forums can be a goldmine of good information, but just like gold mining, you have often to dig through a lot of useless stuff to get to it.

"There is no substitute for experience" confuscius

:)

DW

[Don_Lee]

I agree 100% with the value of experience. I definitely still feel like a newbie in this hobby, and value greatly what I learn from those with more experience. I believe Joe is right on with the statement that we all should be scholars, and constantly try to learn all that we can.
Thanks to all of the teachers that give their time to those of us who need direction and help.

Don ;D

To All, It is good to see that this thread seems to have affected readers in the way it was meant to --positively!:D It could have easily been misconstrued and followed up with a deluge of negativity. The intent was not to point a fickle finger, but for certain inexperienced types to do some self-examination and be true to themselves. I hope the intended purpose is thought provoking rather than deemed an attack. Before giving advice, take a deep breath ( something that is taught in anger management ) and decide if it is in the best interest of the hobby to paraphrase what another one has said or be a spectator and learn.

In the past, I have heard about more discus deaths due to panic and misdiagnosis than any single illness. Antibiotics are now recommended with reckless abandon by the inexperienced. The roads are paved with good intentions! Contrary to popular belief, salt does not cure everything! When "parroting" someone , inevitably, something gets lost in the translation. Giving ill-advised treatment that kills another's fish is a heavy responsibility! So let the stones fly if I have offended anyone!!! ;) ;) ;) ;) Joe

Well said Joe

The Question for me and the rest of us newbies is:
How do I differ good advice from emm not so good advice.
Do we all end up e-mailing, IM only a few knowlegeble ?
How do we determine whom to trust ?
Is someone with 500 posts expierienced ? (no offense to anyone)

Ronald

Ronald, Unfortunately, it is difficult for the novice to tell if they are receiving reliable information or not. Then there are some who are not fooling anybody! No--the number of posts is not a reliable guage as to the knowledge one has. Joe ;)

[Don_Lee]

One suggestion I would make to help learn as much as possible is to read discus related books. Although most are definitely not up to date, they can usually give some good general guidelines to go by. The book "Discus Health" by Untergasser is a good example of a book that is great for a reference in case of health problems. I also try to attend as many discus/cichlid events as possible, and really learned alot from Al, John, and Francisco when we got together. Sometimes even magazines have interesting articles about discus, even if there is one bit of good information it is worth reading IMO.
And the big question, how to determine who is giving good advice. That is a tough one. I am somewhat biased, but I feel that most of the time that advise given on this forum is good b/c people tend to know their limits. I seldom post answers on questions I am unsure of, and feel that most of our members do the same. If you read the board enough you will get an idea of who knows what. Or, just posting a question and seeing the responses one gets can be helpful, as there are many good sources for information here.

Don ;D

ps-gotta go with Joe on the number of posts thing, it is not a reliable gauge of ones knowledge at all.

[SLY]

I always feel that advices should comes with experience as in you have experience it before and have tried and it works..this is the kinda advise that I am looking for but ofcoz what works for me might not works for you as we have different water params/environment and such. Advising base on hearsay is like spreading a rumour which might not be true or some part of the rumour which is critical might be missed out from the original rumour :P but I certainly agree with Joe and Mike on this one 100%..nobody can be an expert overnight..it takes a lot of pain to be one 8) ;D No offense intented.

[larry lob]

Hi,

I have been fishing for 26 years, i am 31, I also own and run a fishing tackle shop, so you can imagine the volume of customers that come to me for "advice" i never profess to know everything or forget that i can learn, pick up tips from the newest of anglers as well as the oldest. What i am saying is that your NEVER EVER too old or experianced to beleive you know everything nore should you preach that you do. All you can say or offer is what beleive to be the best information you have the EXPERIANCE to offer and on this site i always say IMO and get a second oppinion, you can only extend what has worked for you and make clear whats good for one may not be for another.

IMO
Larry

[brewmaster15]

Cary, Joe, Mike, DW, and all the experineced hobbyists out there....


...this post shows that we all understand the need for accurate information based on experience, and fact..not fiction and hearsay. Its a probelm... a real problem that we all have dealt with. I don't think it is enough to point the problem out though and not work to a find a solution. Problems should be solved by those that see them.

I and the moderators of this site do the best we can to help people. Sometimes its just simply pointing them in the right direction. Often times there is no other source of help for these hobbyists, and to not try and help would be wrong. Though I recognize what Mike said about all the different pathogens out there and needing a lab result.. thats not practical for most hobbyists. Sometimes just knowing someone is trying to help them is enough to keep them from panicking and doing the wrong things.

Basically it comes down to this.. we are saying that advice on these boards should be based on experinece, but if those of us with the most experience are afraid to help because of the difficulties involved ... then who will help?


I need everyones help here. I especially need the breeders. You guys have the experience> I am asking you now to share it in the breeders , disease, biology and foods sections here.


I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally will continue to try to help, and I will ask our moderators to do the same. I believe as a collective whole the members of this site hold the knowledge to help , but are either afraid they can't help, or just too busy in other areas. If I don't know the answer to the problem I'll do my best to help that person find the answer.



Knowledge that is not shared is lost. Share what you know, and we might be able to help fix a problem, and maybe we can keep some fish alive. We can do this... I know we can. I can't do it alone, but I'll keep trying....Simply Discus will keep trying.

thanks,
al

[limige]

i must say, i've probably been too quick to post suggestions sometimes. i am no expert i always try to suggest others to post their opinion, i hate to see people in dire need of help to save their poor fish,if i can help i try. but i must watch myself and only address things i've dealt with. thanks for the reminder joe!! i have no problems with others correcting me always open to others to point out where i've gone wrong so i can do it right next time!

i just wish some of the greats like cary and mike as well as others had the time to help more. just seems like there's not enough time in a day for these guys!! try and have a home life with a family and other interest as well as take care of their wonderful fish, help others, ship orders work other jobs, it's crazy. my heart goes out to these wonderful people ;D

Cary, Mike, Al, & Joe,

What an awesome post! It is people like yourselfs that give all us expertise knowledge from trial and error. You guys help smooth out the road. The internet is a wonderful tool to use. This forum helps people to find quick answers to their probelms.

Thanks Guys,

Miles :)

[fcdiscus]

Damn Al, Your intelligence never ceases to amaze me! ;) Frank

[Francisco_Borrero]

I think this a very important topic, and thank all for stating their views.
When I read the first post on the thread by Joe, my first thought was....is this about me and the advice that I give sometimes ? I don't know, though it may be.

I think that it is very important for experienced discus people who see bad advice, hearsay being passed, etc. to actually contact the person doing it, perhaps most effectively via email or IM. Only then, a sensible person will do differently.
Well...I may be about to get a lot of email and IM, but I 'll rather have it so.

For people who sometimes give advice/opinnions and offer them to others who ask, I suggest to use some of these principles, which I try to adhere to myself every time I type:

1- I usually start by,
"I am not an expert, but IMlimitedExp....."
"This is what I think, hopefully others will also...."
"my understanding is....hopefully others...."
"If it were me and my fish, I would try to...."
2- I do not respond to anything on the basis of hearsay. I only suggest things that have worked for me, in the limited time I have been doing this. Three years with discus, most of my life with tropical fisn. Otherwise, and if I would say something at all, it would be along the lines of "I believe xxx may be of help, since such and such people have been successful using..."

People receiving advice, even true newbies should be aware of the need to understand that people will have different opinnions about an issue. This is in part but not only because even with a good description, there is not substitute for being there and seeing over time the progression of a problem. In fact, there may be value in more than one of the stated views. That is why it is important that different views (several respondents) express their views/give their opinnions. If a very experienced person reads bad advise and does not attempt to correct that on the thread, then he/she is allowing the bad advise to stay as correct.

Finally, when does a person like myself become "qualified" to state opinions/respond to a request for help from someone ???. If we stay within the limits of what is actually our experience (limited as it may be), refrain from acting on the basis of hearsay, and invite other people with some or lots of experience to contribute their views, then I don't think we are incurring in harm by responding. Otherwise, say I have X years of experience keeping discus and I expect to stick with it for the long run; the real experts may have today 10X,20X,30X or more years of experience. 5 years from now, that makes them that many years more experienced than myself, but does that mean that I should not feel that I can contribute ? I just don't think so. I believe that if one states one's level of experience and does not attempt to deceive anyone, then our views should be welcomed....and weighed along with others from people who have other ideas and levels of expertise.

So I may be about to get some mail. I can take it. This is how I feel about it.

Cheers and thanks, Francisco.

Brew, I agree100% with your post. Undoubtedly, you are aware of this problem as well! I have and will continue to assist anyone in this hobby. People sometime lose track of the fact that Cary, Mike , myself and others who are dedicated breeders/importers are hobbyists as well. We are indeed approachable. :D

Francisco, This post was meant for no one in particular and was put quite generally. Your attitude about giving advice through experience is right on. Thank You!

What I have observed is people generically prescribing meds to others because someone else said it was a good idea. Too often, the meds are too close at hand and used in a panic situation rather than have sanity prevail. In the past, the discus hobby in this part of the world was non-existant. Myths formed how they were hard to keep. Why? Many times, an antibiotic martini was being administered without knowing the problem. I also see impatience as well. If the discus doesn't turn around in a couple days, some double dose or reach for another wide spectrum med.

Some don't understand--or maybe the signs are ignored. Discus require a committment. Observation and knowing the behavioral attitudes of ones fish is paramount! The fish will tell you something is amiss in most cases long before it goes Belly Up! I think if the general membership here stays focused and stays within the scope of their individual expertise--then the hobby will grow and maybe the " Revolving Door " of the hobby will spin a bit slower! Joe ;D

[Francisco_Borrero]

Joe (Enchanteddiscus):
Thanks for your response and compliment. I appreciated. I also agree with the aim of your points.
Cheers, Francisco.

Again,
IMO I think everyone should help if they can when they can.


I also agree that if You do not know! IMO Theres nothing wrong posting to them collecting more info on the situation.

It also helps to keep them around.

It also helps to keep it in view were others might see it and be able to help! Not to mention that it more then likely helps the other person feel that there is hope.


SO Everyone Please keep doing what You do best! the worst thing that could happen is someone replying that they do not agree. So What maybe you will learn something or someone else will come along after that person and teach him a thing or to. You never know untill you try!


All I can say is the best thing we all can do is learn from our mistakes. IME if Your anything like Me the more mistakes you make the faster you will learn!

Remember NO INFO IS BAD INFO and BAD Info is only BAD when No one is willing to HELP .

TakeCare,
Cary Gld!

[brewmaster15]

Thanks Cary! :)
-al