No nitrates!!!!

[ronrca]

I need all the plant brains to brainstorm here, plz!

First:
My 90G tank has been setup since April 2001! At the moment it is moderatly planted with Vallisneria spiralis covering the back wall and 2 large sword plants. That tank is also moderatly stocked with 4 discus, 8 cardinals, 5 angola barbs, 1 dwarf rainbow, 1 honey gourami, 4 otos and 1 sae!

The parameters are all acceptable (0-ammonia/nitrite/nitrate, ph 7.0, 140-kh/gh), temp 86-88F. I have pressurized C02 during the day and fertilize every day (lagune pond fert). I feed once a day generously and preform weekly 25-35% water changes. Lighting around 3-3.5wpg!

The interesting part is that since the introduction of plants, I have never had any nitrates. No problem really but why not? Is it because the plants are consuming the ammonia? Plants consume nitrates however 6 weeks ago I started adding nitrates. 1 week after I added nitrates, the levels is pretty much the same and after 2 weeks is still present! I have heard or read somewhere that plants will take ammonia over nitrates!

Is this true?

If so, starting with a heavy planted tank, there is no need to 'cycle' the tank! Or am I missing something!

[Ralph]

I'm trying to remember where I read it, I think it was in Walstad's book, she referenced or quoted a scientific paper (how is that for third hand info?). The preference list for plants went ammonia, nitrites, nitrates in descending order. But they will use nitrates as a source of nitrogen.
Your tank has a combination of rapid plant growth (if what you are giving them is any indication) and low fish load so it wouldn't surprise me that you are running 0 nitrates. (Does your fertilizer have nitrogen?) And if you are like every other discus keeper, you probably have an extensive filter system(s).
The key though to nitrogen use by plants is their growth rate (as I understand it - I don't sound like much of a plant brain here). So technically, if you had an established planted tank with actively growing plants, cycling could be skipped, in fact, with a low fish load, you wouldn't even need a filter. And nitrifying bacteria actually coats every surface of your tank, including the plants and even the fish. So that, with the ammonia absorbtion by the plants would keep you and your fish happy.

[ChloroPhil]

Ronrca,

The plants you've got in there are Nitrate hogs, especially the Vals. You need to start adding Nitrate to your tank. Your discus will be putting out good amounts of Ammonia with their waste, but with your combination of plants, high light, and CO2 you're running so hard that your plants are using the Ammonia the second it hits the water.

How's your algae situation? With the description you gave you should have a tank full of it. Like Ralph asked, does your fertilizer have Nitrate in it? What about Ammonia or Urea? If I were in your shoes (and I was) I'd call Homegrown Hydroponics up and have them ship you a two or three pounds of Potassium Nitrate. My tank's very similar to yours and I add 1/2 tsp during my weekly maintenance and 1/4tsp twice during the week to keep my levels high enough.

Also, there's no need to shut your CO2 off at night. With your hardness you don't need to worry about harmful pH swings and it'll give your plants what they need when the lights come on. Just a thought.

[ronrca]

Im adding nitrates for around 6 weeks however over a course of 2 weeks, the nitrate level does not come down much! I just added more last Saturday (10ppm). Ill check the level tonight to see if it has changed!

About the algae, its there but it is not taking over the tank. Its on the back wall and slowly grows on the substrate but not too much. Of course, I would like to see less though. More otos?

Thanks guys!

[ronrca]

Tested my nitrate level last night! 5ppm from 10ppm last Saturday! However, it will stay at 5ppm for a couple of weeks instead of going down farther! ???

[ronrca]

Well, I will continue to add nitrates as you describe Bio! I also picked up some Tropica Master grow. WOW! Pricey! $25cdn for 500ml! Do you know of any good PMDR (Poor man's dosage recipes) that I could make instead?

I updated my yahoo album with pics of my 90G. Yea! Quite a bit of algae at the moment as I was gone for 2 weeks on holidays therefore only ferts adding every 2nd day instead of daily and no nitrate supplement. Amazing what a different it does. Im in the middle of renovating still and having a hard time to get plants to want.

This is the tank where Im using the cool whites with electronic ballast to 'over power' them!

Comments/suggestions are always welcome! Check out the yahoo album for bigger pics!

[Ralph]

Wow! That looks great! Don't you dare add any more plants. That stump is too amazing to cover up.

Do whatever you want to, I lost control for a bit. But I do like the way it looks right now. Where did you get that wood?

[ChloroPhil]

ronrca,

See what I'm talking about? :( I went on vacation for three days and came back to split pea soup one time. That was the beginning of a horrible four month war with GW.

I agree with Ralph, almost. Your stump is truly beautiful, but it's too straight and looks somewhat artificial. Try moving the sword you put in the middle of the left midground into the crook between the two large root sections. The top of the stump will still show and the sword in front will lend a more natural feel to the aquarium. Right now, they both look like someone placed them where they are instead of feeling as though they grew in the aquarium naturally. Also, try moving the sword on the right away from the glass a few inches to give it room to grow; it's looking a little cramped.

How easy is it for you to get Glossostigma elatinoides? That would look really good taking up the front left section in the root fork and should give your discus plenty of room. Right now it looks like someone put it there. I like what you've done with the vals in the background it lends a reedy texture to the whole design. Planting some Echinodorus tenellus in front of that will bring it forward and give a better sense of depth to the whole aquascape. It'll also do well to accent the attractive line that root gives.

-OR- if you've got enough room between the vals and that root a well trimmed Nymphaea zhenkeri would add a dramatic touch of red to the scene. The only issue would be to keep it trimmed well enough that it'll start growing low and across rather than up.

Those are just the ideas that immediately came to mind when I saw your picture. :) I like the foundation of your design a lot. You're right, it just needs to fill in a bit now.

[ronrca]

Thanks guys! I love the piece of wood myself as soon as I saw it! I found it in the forest/bush on my parents acreage. The sump actually had a lot more roots twisting everywhere unfortunately, the tank is only so big therefore had to trim off quite a bit.

Thanks for the suggestions Bio! I'll try to find the plants you mentioned and get them in my tank asap! However, I think I had some Glossostigma elatinoides once and was not very satisifed with them. They grew but always up and after a while you would see like 1" of roots above the substrate, then the leaves. Any suggestion on the glossostigma? I attached a pic! Check out the pic! Is that glossostigma? See how its growing funny? That was around 8 months ago though maybe with the addition of ferts and nitrates, maybe it would do better!?

[ChloroPhil]

That's Hemianthus micanthremoides, better known as Pearlweed.

This is Glossostigma

http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=4006090712&f=3506023812&m=3836098022

[Ralph]

How can you guys cover that up? If I had that tree stump, I wouldn't put a plant in there at all. I'm gonna go pout now.

It did give me an idea though. I bought a tree stump with no roots at all, it looks good but nothing like yours, Ron. I'm going to get some branches that are the same color and make them look like roots. I can cover the spaces with gravel or plants maybe. Or maybe I can shape them with my Dremel.

[ronrca]

Ahh! Yes! Thats what it is! Thanks Bio! I had forgotten the name!
Since that is cleared up, I have heard and read that glossi is hard to grow! True? Nice site btw! I love the pics!

Instead of glossi, I was thinking of some Echinodorus grisebachii! What do you think?

http://paul.aaquaria.com/ProfilesHome2/plantprofiles/ecgrise/ecgrise.htm

Go for it Ralph! You could even visit lakes/rivers for some cool dirftwood too!

[ChloroPhil]

I think you should keep the great majority of plants in front of the wood low enough so that it can be seen. The large swords being the exception as they'll give the trunk a "grown in" look. The roots themselves are too pretty to obscure. :)

About the glosso. With your lighting and CO2 you should have no problems whatsoever growing it as long as you keep your ferts up and stay on top of them. I've found it does best if planted right up to the top leaves, go ahead and bury the rest. I always get good ground coverage planting it that way.

The E. grisbachii would look great sparsely planted on the right side, thickly behind the root and sparsely in front. The whole trick is to gently obscure, not hide the wood. Less is more, your plants will always grow in if you want more. :)

[Ralph]

Where did you learn all this, Phil? I'm sure glad you post here.

[ronrca]

No kidding Ralph! He should have his own thread called "Aquascaping 101"! At least I know who to call on for good sound advice!

Keep it up Bio! I really appreciate it! ;)

[lcs]

Love it!! :o That stump is amazing.

I'm thinking of starting a 90 and I was wondering how many vals it took to cover the back wall. Did you fill it when you first planted or have they grown in? I was worried it would be difficult to find plants that would grow the height of a 90, but I guess not. Cool. 8)

Lisa

[ronrca]

I think I started with 10 valls or something like that. Slowly, the valls send out runners and start filling in. I constantly have to un-root runners from growing to the front. In the beginning, the background it looked quite 'empty' which just a few valls spaced probably 4-5" apart. So, they filled in quite nice!

If you think that plants have trouble growing to the top of a 90G, not! If you check out some previous pics from a year ago with lots of plants, I had to weekly trim the plants 25% off the tops. Im not kidding. I really wished that the plants would only grow to what they stated on various plant sites like tropica! So dont worry about that. Be more worried about keeping the plants down so that slower growing plants get enough light! 8)

[ChloroPhil]

Thank guys... :blushing:

To answer your questions:

I do aquarium design and maintenance professionally. :) Most of the aquascaping techniques I've learned have come from more hours than I care to count poring over books and studying pictures of other peoples' aquariums on the internet. I've also been keeping aquariums since college and have learned a lot by trial and (a lot of) error.

Discussion forums, such as this one and the AquaBotanic sites are excellent places to learn new things too. There's always someone better or more experienced than you posting the next topic over so help is never far away. In fact, here's a link from a VERY good Austrian aquascaper: Wolfgang Amri.

http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=4006090712&f=5196060812&m=3876034022

I've got Tom Barr to thank for all the wonderful advice I give on fertilizers. The levels and techniques I use are all his idea. I've just had a lot of success using his methods and feel it's my job to spread the joy. :) For more information of technical plant information and the more scientific parts of this hobby check out the Aquatic Plants Digest. It's a great list to get, even if you just lurk and pick out bits here and there.

I was a teacher before getting into aquascaping and enjoy helping other people learn about this awesome hobby. Thank you for your kind words. :)

[ronrca]

Tom Barr? Plantbrain?
Can you ask him about cycling and plants, particularly plants consuming nitrites! I read his post from who knows when and can not find it anymore.

Thanks Bio! It is great to have you aboard simply. Guess where Im going for more suggestions on planted tanks? ;D

O! Another thing! How can I get Aquatic plant digest?

[ChloroPhil]

The same Plantbrain.

In regards to cycling and planted tanks, if the plants have been given sufficient time to adjust and establish themselves there will be no cycle as in an unplanted aquarium. If you end up moving plants around in an inhabited tank chances are your plants are going to adapt very quickly, and if you let up on the fertilization enough there will be no problems. Stemplants like Rotala, Ludwigia, and Hygrophila are water column feeders, so they will continue using nutrients in the water column as usual.

Click here to subscribe to the APD:
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/

[ronrca]

I know about the cycling part however Tom mentioned that plants do not use nitrites therefore if you do get ammonia being converted to nitrites by bacteria, the plants will not consume the nitrites rather the bio will need time to grow to compensate. Im know that I read a post by plantbrain but I believe that the messageboard was moved or something. I know that Ralph was asking about that.

Thanks for the link! ;) All signed up! ;D

[Ralph]

Hi Phil,
When you sign up on the link, do you get the messages as email? Not surprised about your education background, I was a teacher too for 5 years (burnout convinced me to try something else).

Ron, I found that reference: a study from '69 by Ferguson and Bollard called Nitrogen Metabolism of (Duckweed). What they found was that plants like ammonium best but will use nitrite and nitrate.

[ChloroPhil]

I'm not 100% sure why plants like Ammonium more than Nitrite or Nitrate. My guess is stability and ease of molecular breakdown. I know for a fact though that plants appreciate NO3 so I use it. :)

Ralph,
Yes, the list will come as a digest to your email account. It may take a day or so, but it'll come.

[Wahter]

Diana Walstad definitely has tested it out and presented the findings of plants liking ammonia/ammonium first, then nitrites, then nitrates at our local aquarium club meeting. She also presented her findings on using EDTA to bind up some of the metals in her well water and the effects that has on aquarium plants (growth over time, etc...).

If you want some tips/ information on aquascaping basics/ concepts, I'd suggest that you pick up Amano's "Aquarium Plant Paradise" book. The first few English versions of his AquaJournal magazine also covered some basics of wood and rock placement. One rule of his - never, ever place anything exactly in the center of the tank; he will always have things set slightly off center. Also there is some information about layout in Amano's Nature Aquarium World book 1.

It's rather unfortunate that Amano's magazines aren't widely available outside of East Asia; they often have photos of various tanks setup by people and each tank is judged by the selection of plants, the layout, etc...

Also Pablo Tepoot's Aquarium Plants, The Practical Guide has an example of the layout styles - side slope, mound, valley, and front slope.

HTH,

Walter

[Ralph]

What was she like Walter? I always have an image of an author and have usually been surprised when I find out what they are really like. IM me if you think it's appropriate. Either way, I really like the way she writes.

[Wahter]

Diana lives in this area, so I see her several times a year. She attends our local aquarium club's annual workshop/auction too. She's nice and jokes around too. FWIW, she's working on a revision to her book.

Walter

P.S. - Here's a photo of her selling her book from our 2000 workshop/auction. :)

[Ralph]

Thanks Walter, next time you see her, tell her she has a fan in Phoenix.

[ronrca]

Thats interesting! Very interesting as a matter of fact because Tom Barr on the other hand says that plants do not use nitrites! He does mention it briefly at the beginning of this post:
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200202/msg00335.html


Do not do fish less cycling. Produces NO2 which
as you can see, plant don't use. NO2 is not good for plants, fish or your tank. from the above link!
I also remember a post on aquabotanic from Tom Barr going into greater detail however the link I had no longer exists! :(

[Ralph]

I am sure they are sincere in their opinions and are probably passing on what they feel is reliable information (and how many of us actually conduct scientific experiments to confirm the things we hear).
But it doesn't make sense from the standpoint of nature. We are talking about one of the three elements that is vital to the plants survival. If nitrogen is available in the habitat of aquatic plants, they will find a way to use it, in any form. Plants are amazingly adaptable, their lack of mobility requires that. Their survival is based on the ability to utilize their required elements in the forms that are available to the plants. That doesn't mean all aquatic plants, but probably most, can and will use the nitrogen from nitrites and nitrates.

[ChloroPhil]

From what I've been able to figure out today plants don't use Nitrate itself. They need the Ammonium ion to synthesize the amino acids needed for protein synthesis. By adding Nitrate we're providing the least toxic form of Nitrogen we can, but we're also forcing the plants to expend energy to change the un-usable Nitrate to usable Ammonium.

Walstead mentions a ratio of Ammonium to Nitrate formula for optimum plant growth. Ammonium is negatively charged and Nitrate s positively charged, NH4 vs NO3. The natural balancing act between ions does a lot of the work for the plants by virtue of electron transfer. It is this action that makes the Ammonium/Nitrate ratio work. I believe Ammonium is important for optimum plant growth by taking some of the plants' work away. This frees up energy for use in other things, like growing.

Water borne or free Ammonium, however, is not vital to sustain plant life and encourage growth, plant only aquariums being the proof of this. By adding Nitrate we're giving our plants the materials they need to create Ammonium when it's not available and to be active enough to use the Ammonium when it is. When plants are supplied with insufficient amounts of Nitrogen, in any form, they shut down, leaving ALL nitrogenous materials available for algae.

A highly active planted aquarium absorbs and uses Ammonium at such a rate that release to uptake is almost instantaneous. Furthermore, algae are more efficient users of water borne chemicals. By keeping our plants revved up on Nitrate we're doing our best to make sure that the easier to use Ammonium is absorbed as quickly as possible, keeping it out of the water column.

It's still not advisable to add even minute amounts of Ammonia/Ammonium to an aquarium. You'll get an algae bloom for sure.

The EDTA Walstead mentioned is used as a chelating agent. This keeps many trace elements, especially Iron, from oxydizing and bonding, rendering themselves usless to aquatic plants. The old idea of putting a nail in one's substrate is a good example of this. The iron's released into the substrate at rust which is totally unusable by plants. Add a nail and some EDTA and it should be a different story. I think Ms. Walstead's use of EDTA in her well water is a great idea and one that would likely work very effectively in a backyard pond. Just keep in mind, Ms. Walstead's tanks are by nature much closer to ponds-in-a-tank than they are an aquarium we would keep discus in.

[Ralph]

Absolutely!
Go Phil.
That's real close to my understanding of the situation (for what that's worth) and some more that I didn't know.
Apparently the actual mechanize that the plants use to convert the nitrites and nitrates to ammonium is an enzyme (a little like the digestive enzymes we have to convert substances into a form we can absorb and use). And you are right, the plant has to utilize it's energy to manufacture the enzyme and thus the preference for ammonium.
Great post!

[ronrca]

Wow Bio! That was good! If you ever leave simply for any reason, Im coming looking for you! :whip:

Thanks for the explaination! That is why we need to keep the nitrates up then. Well, back to the nitrate topic, I have been adding 1/4 teaspoons of nitrate twice a week plus 15ml of tropica master grow daily. I have also increased my algae crew with 2 more otos and 1 shrimp (lfs gave it free as we want to try it out in a discus tank). So, right now I have 6 otos, 1 shrimp and 1 sae!

Just had an interestingn thought! :idea:
Adding ammonia is bad! What if we were to dilute it with water and add prime. Prime would detoxify the ammonia to the fish but still make it available to the plants! Of course, this is only between us so do not try this at home!

[ChloroPhil]

Ronrca,

I wouldn't intentionally add ammonia to any aquarium for any reason outside of a laboratory. It's too toxic for me to be comfortable adding it to my aquarium. If I wanted more ammonia I could just add more fish or feed them more. That's a much more attractive solution.

Apparantly SeaChem's new Flourish Nitrogen product is a mixture of Nitrate and chemically bonded non-toxic ammonia compound. It might be interesting to try using that instead of Potassium Nitrate and see what the difference is. As for me and my house, we'll use KNO3 because I know it works well and is much cheaper than any commercial product. :)

Oh, let me know how the shrimp does in your discus tank. I'm starting to get some algaes that my SAEs and Ottos aren't eating and I'd like to try putting shrimp in there.

[ronrca]

I hear you Phil! Im not for adding ammonia either! Especially with discus!

You bring up a very good point though! Algae's that otos and sae's do not eat. Which ones do they not eat? One of my fears! Here you add a good sized algae crew only to have them dye because they do not eat the algae. Then, all this other algae grows because there is no algae crew! So, you get an algae crew only to have them dye because......repeat!

The other side is you start feeding them algae wafers only to discover they do not eat the algae anymore! :P

I'll let you know about the shrimp!

[ChloroPhil]

The algae my fish won't eat are staghorn, spot, cladophora, "green dust", and the various hair algae. My current problem is staghorn, I had a die-off in a thick patch of chainsword and it got well established there before I found it. If it weren't for the green spot most of my leaves would be completely free of algae. The glass is another matter entirely..:( I get little bits of beard algae every once in a while, but it's quickly taken care of.

[ronrca]

I have a lot of green algae on the glass especially on the back wall and heaters. Im not really prepared to clean that every 1-2 weeks so I leave it. Probably not a good thing! >:( Its ironic! First we try to rid algae by increasing light intensity, dose fert daily, add nitrates, add algae eating fish and shrimp only to grow algae that loves the conditions we created and the algae crew does not eat! Ummmm, now what! ??? LOL!

[ChloroPhil]

We scrub the glass and change the water. :P Or we get an L-number catfish and hope it doesn't eat our plants too. Personally, I don't mind scrubbing the glass..as long as the algae stays off my plants I'm ok with it.