San Merah other Reds

[ALEXIS]

I have read many post about the San Merah being the same as Red Covers and other reds. In my opinion their is only one real deal San Merah that is the San Merah. I have also read many post that a juvenile San Merah will not show bars I question that also. If you breed two high quailty San Merah together you will have fry with bars that are true San Merahs and at adult hood they will become barleess and solid. These are just my opinions as I stated earlier in this post. The Rose Red is not a San Merah neither the Red Cover or any other solid red discus. I have San Merah x Alq x San Merah they look just like the San Merah but they are not. I have sum very high quailty Rose Reds that look just like San Merahs but they are not. I just would like to end this by saying just because it looks like a San Merah does make it a San Merah !


P.S. Hello to everyone on the board and welcome to all the newbies. Colors don't make the fish what they are the genetics do !

Alexis,
I am by all means no way the resdient expert (Mike Wells), but from what I have learned and been told is this:
1. Red Cover= San Merah cross Red Alencer
2. San Merah= Ghost cross ????
3. San Merah mated with another San Merah will have a percentage with no bars and percentage with bars.
No bars= A grade
With Bars= B grade
4. Eye bars go away anywhere from 4-5 months
5. Super San Merah= San Merah cross Melon
To be honest I truly believe that they are the same fish. I have 10 Red Covers and 6 San Merahs in my tank right now, with the only difference is the color of the head. I am expecting 10 more San Merahs, and 10 Red Covers in the very near future. And come he__ or high water I will know after they spawn if indeed the Red Covers and the San Merahs are indeed the same. The fry will tell all.
Like I said Mike Wells A Dream Discus is the expert on the San Merahs.

HTH & IMO
Miles

[ALEXIS]

The expert on the San Merah on this board my be Mike (nothing personel Mike) but in the world wide Discus community I would have to say he is not in the top five. The San Merah was in its f2 and f3 stages before they even made it to the U.S.. A true pair of San Merah from the strian creator would have a unthinkable price as far as most U.S. breeders would want to pay. It is save to say a lot of San Merah sent the U.S.(young adult fish) were not the real deal but high quialty knock offs or Rose Reds.

P.S. A Super San Merah has no P.B. blood in it= Melon = black

Alexis,
That is very interesting. Could you provide names and documents about the San Merahs? I would be very interested.

Thanks
Miles

[ALEXIS]

I can supply names but if you do your homework it will have more meaning to you ! I have done my homework but I will leave you with a clue. The name of the creator of the San Merah and the Super San Merah has been mentioned on this board in the last 45 days. Good luck my friend.

Alexis,
I already know who created the San Merah. All I was asking is for you to provide the supporting documents to what you say.
By the way if I have questions about San Merahs I get in touch with Mike. Lets face it, he has them, rasies them, breeds them and sells them. Pretty dang hard in my book to doubt him.

Miles :)

[Jeff]

Miles you are correct and I aslo refer to Mike Wells with questions as he is the expert on Sans in the US. 8)

Alexis and Miles.... Are you guys speaking from experience or repeating hearsay? (nothing personal) When I say experience I am referring to personally breeding this fish.

Please understand I am not a expert. However I have line breed and out crossed them for a few years now and these are my obversations.

I agree and understand that some of the fry born with light body bars and eye bars may disappear or diminish when the fish gets older. However the bar less trait in this fish is recessive. Every generation these fish are breed the percentage of fry with bars will increase. Call them what ever you like they are not a true bar less brown base red.

The fish that See Chow San named San Merah is a barless brown base red...Thus the name San Merah should refer back to this. If your fish have fright bars I'm sorry... Just because offspring come from the same parents it does not qualify them to be the same. In this day and age what's in a name any way. If you like what's swimming in your tanks it really makes no difference...

Mike

Mike,
If what you have told me is hearsay, then it is hearsay from you.
Red Covers, I have purchased at 1 1/2- 2 inch and now are an easy 5 inch and still growing. And like I said earlier they look dang almost exactly like the Sans., that I purchased from you.
And also Mike if you read my first post I said, "What I have learned and been told".
The Bottom line is this, I like em and I own em and I am raising them and will breed them when they come of age.

Thank You
Miles

San Merah....Rose Red....Red Cover....They are all EXACTLY the same.....BUTT UGLY

Tony ;D

Good Deal Miles, I'm glad you like them.

Please note I never said

Red Cover = San Merah X Alencer

Mike Said... San Merah = Red Cover... Different source for the same fish.

There was an interview done with See Chow San in Singapore discus in the new Millennium. He explains how he created this fish. I can't find my copy but I'm pretty sure he stated that he started by breeding two Wild Brown/reds "Ica" Through selective breeding they removed first the body bars then the eye bar and last the facial striations.

If you have Asian Discus 2 there is an article that states the "ghost" discus was used to remove the facial striations. IMO I believe this to be true.

Mike

http://www.asiandiscus.com/sing.html

Tony :P

Mike

[Jeffery_Doty]

Mike,

You stated:



However the bar less trait in this fish is recessive. Every generation these fish are breed the percentage of fry with bars will increase. Call them what ever you like they are not a true bar less brown base red.


That is very interesting and something I did not know about them. If this is the case, do you out-cross them with something to maintain the barless line? Or, what method are you using to maintain the barless trait?

Thank you.

Jeff
Oregon

[keith_cny]

Has anybody heard of or seen a strain called "Red Dragons"???

Thanks,
Keith

T-Bone LMAOPIMP


You so crazy LOL!


Cary Gld!

Sorry Jeff, I ment to say every generation you breed the fright bar offspring the higher the number of fry with fright bars.

HTH

Mike

Mike,
I owe you an apolige (sp). It was from a different Breeder not you on all the information. Actually two.


Sorry to involved you,
Miles

Hi Miles,
Now How Do you Mix up a breeder like Mike with someone else? hee.hee.hee

Cary,
It is called a dumb a__ pill. LOL


Miles

[SLY]

LOL ;D

[OEG]

Hi guys,
I was wondering what you all thoght about the San Merah for sale in Sunrise Tropicals website.I was just wondering, I thoght they were good looking fish.Now school me
Oscar ;)

The Real Story of the San Merah.
I had thought all the misconceptions were over. Apparently they are not! So here it is --one last dance! If you think I am lying--so be it! I interviewed See Cheow San in 2000 at Duisburg. I have since lost the interview through the now defunct Discus Study Group. At the time, he was a subcontractor for Simon Po of Penang in a Discus Co Op called Asian Discus.

See Cheow San has been in the Discus Hobby since 1990. In 1993, he set up his farm with 80 tanks and was breeding both Discus and Rams.
In 1996 he increased the tanks to 50 breeding tanks 50 growouts and 300 tanks for adult discus.

In 1992, Ah San crossed 2 wild Browns ( Ica ) The female was much more red than the male. NO OTHER CROSSINGS!! No alenquer--no melon! Although, I must admit it appears to have ghost genes--it does not. Selective breeding only!

in 1993-1994, he selected the barless red brown progeny were selected to breed. he then worked on getting the blue striations to disappear. After 4-5 generations , the San Merah was now reality. The outcome was 90% true breeding.

Soon , the Super San Merah was developed as a totally red fish from lips to caudal peduncle throuegh careful selection--some had blue rims on the dorsal and ventral fins. In 1995, he felt the fish was "done" with no further improvements possible!

Ah San experienced at times--a lack of slime coat for the fry to attach--he used tetracyclene and lowered the water level to about 8" in the tank. ;)

He does not uae any color enhancer or hormones. The color comes naturally from a recipe comprised of 70% beefheart-- 20-30% prawn 5% Spirulina powder and vitamin B Complex.
( 1 tblsp per 4 lbs ) He feels if an excess of red color enhancer is fed to the fish, the spawn size will decrease from 150-200 eggs.His San Merah received 2nd place in the 2000 Discus show in Duisburg in the Solid Red Category. :D

The above information was excerpted from the book, Singapore Discus in the new Millenium. by Clifford Chan & Johnny Yip

I purchased 12 San Merahs directly from Ah San in Duisburg 2000 at 2 1/2" and paid $85 each. Upon returning to the U.S., I sold them. The Red Cover and San Merah is the same fish. :o
As far as the "real deal", The imports are the real deal! This is not my opinion--- It has been my business to know the Asian Discus. I do not travel there to window shop for parasols.

The Rose Red was not very poular in Asia in the early nineties as it was more brown than red. In the last couple years, the barred San Merahs became Rose Reds. The eye bar does not disappear--but becomes less conspicuous as the fish gets older. The fish is very pleasing to the eye now and is selling well. 8)

Recently, See Cheow San has went to the Flower Horn breeding --but has now come full cycle and attempting a comeback of sorts--to Discus.

Joe

[rich]

Thanks for the informative post. I have had fish labeled "San Merahs" and "Red Covers" from different breeders/exporters and the fish look different each time - bars or no bars.

Rich

;D

Thanks Joe ;) for the great post and putting all these rumors, lies or myths to rest. What some people do to pass off the cheap knock off. :o :o :o :o :o


Mike

[brewmaster15]

Thats Great info Joe- Thank you.

Now for more questions....

Ah San experienced at times--a lack of slime coat for the fry to attach--he used tetracyclene and lowered the water level to about 8" in the tank

can you ellaborate on the hows and whys here?

Thanks,
-al

[Don_Lee]

Thanks for the great information Joe!

Don ;D

[shootingstar]

Great info, Joe !

by the way, I am wondering if I can buy a copy of Singapore Discus in the new Millenium. by Clifford Chan & Johnny Yip anywhere in the states ?

thanks

I don't understand the Tetracycline thing either.

My fry all go to there backs plenty of slime... If they dident I would use foster parents before I breed discus on TC.

JMO

Mike

[ALEXIS]

Thank You for your input Joe on this topic.

[daryl]

Wow,
That was a great ,to the point answer, you learn something new every day.
Great answer Joe.
Daryl

Joe,
Outstanding post!
Just one last question I have is this: Does the San Merahs that you or anyone else sells look like the San Merah in March 2003 Tropical Fish Hobbyist Pg. 42?
And as you said the breeder is the one that knows for sure!

Miles

Brew, I don't get the tetracyclene thing either! That was from him though. I will ask though. The lowering of the water level does work on pigeons to help with the fry attaching to the parents in conjunction with paper on the front of the tank. The placement of a nightlight in the corner helps when all else fails. Also, just as the white background helps for the limiting of pepper it is also good for breeding. This info came from my friend, Peter Thode.
;D ;D ;D

Miles, I do not particularly like the San Merah in that issue. Take Care, Joe ;)

Steven, To my knowledge, the book, " Singapore Discus in the New Millenium " is not distributed in the United States. When I go in May, I will check to see the availability. Joe ;)

[Jeff]

Steven,

Ray at discushi@pixi.com has them for sale. You can email him. ;)


Jeff

Great Posting Everyone! ;)


Now try this on for size! GOD created Discus on the first day!
And the others just had the eye for Quality and Change.
For example.

KITTI bought the first PB Discus from his good friend! 8)

MR LOWING YAT Found the BD Discus in a imported order from :-X

SEE CHEOW SAN purchased the f1 sanmerah from a locall breeder in his country before ghost was added to remove the face striation. ::)

BELIEVE IT OR NOT! ???

This Post is not over yet! there's still so much to learn! hee.hee.hee

Brew,
TC with HCL will induce the slime coat! WHY? Because
HCL is hydrochloric acid. Acid will induce slime coat and so will salts. This is were just plan tc comes in. The main ingredients in tc alone are made up of complex salts + acids not to mention all the other crapola.

Basically this is one of the reasons in how it cures. By building up the slime coat of the discus it blocks out the organism from attacking the epidermis. This alone stops the Organism from further damage to the main skin layers that would kill the discus if attacked.

HTH You wonder More! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

TakeCare,
Cary Gld!

Shhhhhhh Don't tell anyone Cary.....


:-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X


Mike

O Hell!
One More ;D

Formaldahyde at 37% long and weekly baths are used to remove pepper from PB strains I mean Types for short periods of time :o

BELIEVE IT OR NOT!
Cary Gld

[SLY]

look what u have done cary. ;D

Am so naughty! :-*

[brewmaster15]

Damn Cary,
Your'e kidding me right? :o :o :o :o :o :)



Brew,
TC with HCL will induce the slime coat! WHY? Because
HCL is hydrochloric acid. Acid will induce slime coat get out of town! Your'e pulling my leg here ...right? Please tell me it aint so!.... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

My guess..........
http://www.mcb.ucdavis.edu/faculty-labs/kaplan/Safety_Info/MSDSs/tetracycline.htm


CAUSES EYE AND SKIN IRRITATION.
MATERIAL IS IRRITATING TO MUCOUS MEMBRANES AND UPPER
RESPIRATORY TRACT.

Maybe the tetracycline itself is an irritation to the skin and stimulates the mucous. That HCL, just means its the water soluable form. I think most Most medications meant to be given orally are formulated as HCL salt, but I don't think its going affect the pH much, or even the conductivity. Its such a small amount. Now I got to go and dose a tank with tetracyline HCL and measure the pH and conductivity changes.!!!! ;)

Wouldn't it have been easier to just drop the pH with acid? and roll the fish around in some Cayenne pepper!LOL :)

-al

ps..I believe the salt will cause it too, but theres really no appreciable amount of "salt" in that Tetracycline HCL. That could cause that slime coat to increase.

[SLY]

who let the dogs out..who who who who who. ;D

[ALEXIS]

This post is for Joe or anyone on the board who believes the Rose Red and the San Merah are the same fish. CHEW BING TAIK from JOHOR created the Rose Red and the fish used to create the Rose Red were the VIRGIAN RED X F2 WILD GREEN. The Rose Red and the San Merah are not the same fish ! I have noticed that the San Merah colors up in the body first and spreads to the fins almost in red patches. The Rose red colors ups from the fins into the body just like the Alq colors up. I would be interested in your thoughts and comments on this statement. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong but the chances of that are slim and none ! ;D ;D ;D


Alexis

[Tyler]

Thanks for the info Cary....... Gotta love the guy who dishes out the truth.

Tyler

Joe,
Thank you for your honesty.

Cary,
Thank you for the insight. It is great that people will be able to learn from this thread.

Miles

Come on Brew!
Am I? What do You think? when have You ever ask a Question? I know You watch daily waiting to put others in check. But not in a bad way Only for the truth.

When I seen You ask joe about the Tc and just alone this whole thread about Sans, mans and plans I just could not refuse. hee.hee.hee

I new You would be the first and only one to check LOL!
Even My comments about the Breeders were of comments made by others to Me. LMAO


Also The TC with hydrochloric acid :P will not lower your Ph or Conductivity one bit! Don't waste Your time. But again You did good and Your very right! TC is a skin IRRITAINT! this is why its so important to fully cover Your tank when treating. If any discus die from a Tc treatment more then likely it was from smashing into the glass.Imo and others they must feel some kind of burning to make them act that way! but i did not lie about it being a slime stimulant! Also I expect to see the same treatment done to Others when playing around :o LOL!

Now Sly let them dogs in NOW! Cause I know the cat has Your Tongue! Your from Sing Sing and have No info at all? maybe its just the ak pointed at Your Head LOL! Or your just not as fast as Brew ;D ;D ;D ;D


Also I allmost forgot am Importing R/o water by the gallons from England I'll be selling it for $1 Gallon Please Email me at aquastrong@aol.com ;)

Yours truely 8)
Cary Gld!

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

I can't help but ask, does the $1 a gallon include shipping.

You all going to make me lose my mind up in here up in here. You all going to make me lose my cool up in here up in here. All going to make me act a fool up in here up in here.

DMX

Were back where we started... LOL

Mike

[redlines]

Cary,

Is there a price break on the water if ordered in BULK? ;)

Cary I need a tanker truck full... let me know the price and I'll send you a paypal asap...

Mike

[redlines]

Wait don't forget the guarantee .........

To bad people do not live where I do cause the water comes out of the faucet at 60 ppm. I tell ya if it ain't one thing it is another.
The whole world is nothing but a SECRET. Dang

Miles :)

Chia pet Pottery is better then any kind of breeding cone
For breeding Discus!

My sisters Mothers Brother Told me That and Now am a Believer! ;D ;D ;D

Believe it or Not!

Yours Truly
Cary Gld!

My Sisters Mothers Husbands Only Son said your full of chitt. ;D

Mike

Thank You Mr Wells,

Your a Winner! I new there was still much to learn!


IF IT LOOKS LIKE CHITT SMELLS LIKE CHITT OR SOUNDS LIKE CHITT thats all it is CHITT! LMAOPIMP!!!

[April]

hmmmm. id say your on to something cary....im gonna go buy one and try it out. i"ll take pics!! it might just go over well. after all..my chicken pot was a sensation!!

Alexis, It may seem petty but it was Chew Beng Taik and the crossing was an F2 Wild Green X Virgin Red in 1993 . The purpose of crossing with the Wild Green was to lighten the dark Brown/Red color of the Virgin Red. The hobby first saw the fish in 1994.The importance is that the male was the Wild Green. At this time, The fish displayed full bars.I know this as I wrote the article which appeared on Jedds' board. The original fish were not popular in Asia at first as it was a muddy red color. A few attempted to improve on it , but most just dropped the fish as it still was not accepted in Asian markets as of 2001.
When I posted on the Rose Red--I was speaking in current terms of the evolving of this type. Today--the Rose Red and the San Merah are marketed, and are the same fish with the exception of the rose red having bars that become less obvious or gone as the fish matures. Some rose reds still show blue color in the face.

Let's go deeper into the development!
Want to know where the Virgin Red came from? The Virgin Red ( also called Blue Face as it has a blueish cast on the face.) The Virgin red is from the crossing, Ghost X Wild Brown. The ghost was barless with black base. The ghost has the dominant genes and rid the fish of any striations after a few generations. It

The Ghost was a morph found in the breeding of two brilliant discus that had broken stress ( mood ) bars. My knowledge about Asian Discus comes from books and conversations. I am also a member of the Discus Club Singapore member# 232. What I don't know..I can find out. :D

The new website URL is www.discusclubsg.com

Sly,
The 6th National Discus Competition 17-23 March will be held at the Bukit Timah Plaza 10am--10pm. For more info 64666665
Wish I could make it. Joe ;)

[SLY]

Cary there are more dogs to be let out but am not a superhero ;D ;D ;D

Joe I am aware of the competition in March..so who will win this year? Lee,Chai or winnie? make ur guess lol

Sly, My money is on Winnie/ Conrad ;D ;D ;D Joe

[brewmaster15]

Come on Brew!
Am I? What do You think? when have You ever ask a Question? I know You watch daily waiting to put others in check. But not in a bad way Only for the truth.

When I seen You ask joe about the Tc and just alone this whole thread about Sans, mans and plans I just could not refuse. hee.hee.hee

I new You would be the first and only one to check LOL!
Even My comments about the Breeders were of comments made by others to Me. LMAO

Also The TC with hydrochloric acid will not lower your Ph or Conductivity one bit! Don't waste Your time. But again You did good and Your very right! TC is a skin IRRITAINT! this is why its so important to fully cover Your tank when treating. If any discus die from a Tc treatment more then likely it was from smashing into the glass.Imo and others they must feel some kind of burning to make them act that way! but i did not lie about it being a slime stimulant!


- You caught me red handed Cary. I knew you were kidding, but didn't want half the hobbyists out there with problem breeding pairs dumping undetermined amounts of tetracycline-hcl in their tanks, cause they saw it on the San merah channel of Simply :) ;D ;D ;D ;D


Also I expect to see the same treatment done to Others when playing around LOL!
-- I'm sure it will be done, either by me, you , or others. Count on it! LOL someones got to keep CHITT from the CHAT.

have a good one Bro,
al

[ALEXIS]

Joe and who ever would like to respond the Rose Red of today still throws off spring with blue in the head area. I have a couple that I purchased as Rose Reds that have this feature. I recall seeing a post on this board of a Rose Red with blue in the head area. As far as marketing a fish goes a name these days in my opionion is used for pricing purposes. I have never heard of or viewed a San Merah with a blue head. I would say the marketing in this case is misleading to the buyer. The Rose Red x the Rose Red will not produce a San Merah today or in the furture because they are diffrent fish. A San Merah fry showing a bar on the eye, body or both is just a B grade San Merah not a Rose Red. When I buy a fish and breed them together I don't need surprises because the name was wrong(marketing purposes) when I purchased it. Last but not least what is the diffrence in price of a A grade San Merah and A grade Rose Red ? If the price is diffrent this just reenforces that these two fish are not the same. Also if you had the choice between a Rose Red and a San Merah which would you take ? I would be 99.9% sure you would pick the San Merah.

Alexis 8) 8) 8)

[Jeff]

Alexis,

I have Red Covers with blue on the face. In fact I have heard that there are breeders in Malaysia selling blue faced Sans.

[ALEXIS]

If it is a true San Merah it should not display blue in the face. As far as the Red Cover you have with the Blue in the face I can just say that it is a Red Cover not a San Merah. I would guess the San Merahs being marketed as Blue Face San Merah are knock offs or contain Rose Red or sum form of wild in its blood line.

[Willie]

Interesting comment on tetracycline, Cary. As Brew said, Tetracycline HCL would act as a weak acid in water -- no appreciable effect on pH. Tetracycline is an old generation antibiotic that blocks protein synthesis in bacteria. However, it also has side effects in higher animals. Tetracycline has been prescribed for treatment of severe acne. So it may well have an effect on slime production in discus. Any idea of his treatment dosage?

Willie

Alexis, Where are you getting your information from? My information stems from the ones who bred the strains you now enjoy! If you can find a Rose Red that today even resembles the one from 1995--I would welcome a viewing.

The strains of discus are always evolving. At some point, change is good and oftentimes an improvement! Case in point... the turquoise.Currently, both red and blue turquoise are vastly different than ten years ago. The red turquoise are crossed with the blue to improve the weak blue.

The blue turquoise is crossed with the red to improve upon the red color. ;)

The pigeons have been "cleaned up" by crossing with the golden. :D

The golden is alos responsible for markedly improving the red eyes. :D

The original golden was not a pigeonblood. :o
The beat goes on!

The original blue diamond was called blue cover ( genetically weak and hard to keep fish ) :(

Is it all about money? Some what, but not in entirety! --If a fish is not marketable because the color is lacking or it is just plain butt ugly, ( gold cap ghost eg. )does it make sense to improve it and keep the name? You betcha!!! Rose Red is an easily distinguished name and a fitting one I might add. The original is gone ---long live the heir apparent! We can argue this point till we are Blue in the face--like some San Merahs, so we can agree to disagree.

Thanks to the Asian pioneers, we have an array of color we may not have otherwise enjoyed. I will sign off with a quote I attribute to David Webber. " You have to go...to know"

;D Joe ;D

[Wolf]

Joe this doesn't have anything to do with San Merahs but your last post made me curious. What fish would you breed with a pidgeon to get the biggest hatch of unpeppered fish? Sounds like to me from your post a goldenxpidgeon would be a good combo. Thanks for any help.

;) ;) ;) ;) ;)



The strains of discus are always evolving. At some point, change is good and oftentimes an improvement!

But not always does this justify a change in name. Esp when the differences are so minute.

Mike

Wolf, This has alredy been done. New generation Pigeonbloods are very clean. If one was to take a peppered up fish and try to breed clean ones, then yes, a golden is the fish to use--but this could take several generations. It would not happen in a single crossing. ;) Joe

[Wolf]

Ok thanks. I guess I will just have to cherry pick the best fish out of my batch of 100 fry then. I am getting about 1 in 15 that are totally clean out of my blue cobaltxpidgeon blood cross. I am also getting a lot of fish with bars which lead me to believe my blue cobalt has a lot of blue turq in it's genes. I guess it would be much easier to just start off with two clean fish but I'm having a lot of fun experimenting.

[ALEXIS]

Joe it is good that we can agree to disagree and improvement of strians are great but as I stated before this does not justify a name change or comparsion to another fish that may look like it but is definitely not like it when you breed it ! I have voiced my views and so have you and like the two gentleman we are we will walk away until our next discussion or debate.


Alexis

Didn't naming used to be a marketing gimmick? Now with an over use of crazy names like bulldog/rubyfire/musical angel... etc.. etc... it don't mean a damn thing.... if anyone still buy discus based on these names, I feel sorry for them.... I guess with no governing body, I could start from ecache and end with veritas, for a crazy cross I did just to see what the fry look like..... Now some moron is going back to branding classical pigeon.... can't really tell if he is trying to say that these are the pigeons of the nineties, which are probably low grade for today's standard or his new musical line of imports he is concocting.... since we already have the blues, maybe jazz/pop and hip-hop are in the making who knows?

[Tim_Ellis]

Joe,

What was the origin of the original golden? Was it from browns? Do you have a picture of anything close to that golden?

Tim

Joe,
lol, I agree that the golden ghost is butt ugly, but this strain is not kept for its aesthetic value. Remember the "silver dream" it was the most expensive discus of its time. This strain can change the dynamics of your breeding programe, so sometimes beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and for good reasons. peace.

Runner, I agree the Ghost X Golden ( Often called Golden ghost ) was a good looking fish. I was referring to the gold CAP Ghost which usually had a hump on the forehead. Joe ;)

Runner, In the late seventies, Kim Kheng How saw some morphs in with his Wild Browns that were slightly transparent. Growing them up, they had a gold base with white striations only in the frontal region of the body. The eyes were very red!

The Chinese translation for Kim is Gold. Therefor he named the fishthe Golden Discus.Mr' Kim then sold the nine fish grown out from the spawn and after several suitors--Anthony Chew wound up with the fish.

Today, the fish is called Penang Golden. It is improved from the original with less white striations. Besides being the fish responsible for "cleaning up" the pigeons and improving red eye color---from it there has been notable spinoffs:

Golden sunrise, red / golden, golden snakeskin and golden ghost. ;) Joe

Joe,
Correct me if I wrong, but I thought the golden discus came from Saw Wee Hin(Penang), or at least he commercialised the strain. Yes they did come from browns.

Runner, Never heardof that guy ( Saw Wee Hin ) Saw peng Wah and Saw Peng Chee had become partners with Anthony Chew and this group is credited as the stabilizing force behind the ghost discus. They back crossed the Golden Ghost with the Golden to achieve a genetically stronger discus.Prior to the backcrossing with the broken bar Brilliant ( Male ) with the female ghost, less than 10 % of the males in the ghost strain were able to fertilize the eggs as 90 % were sterile. Maybe Viagra wouldv'e helped???

::) Joe :)

Hi Joe,
I know the Saw brothers you are refering to. They specialise in the Golden Ghosts, but check with your sources, and you will find that Saw Wee Hin was the one who introduced the true Golden(not golden ghost) at the Penang Discus Competition some years ago. All in all I do appreciate your knowledge of the History of Asian discus movement. Keep it up Joe. Take care.

Runner, My head is about to explode with all the Asian discus data I am forcefeeding it. I feel that it is relevant to know ones product as wellas how that product was developed. ;) I find it amusing that all the doom and gloom spelled out on the various forums about the Asian Discus and its plight by those not in the know, are wanting to get some from me---I say No Discus for them! Gotta go to know! Joe 8)

Don't sweat it Joe, you are doing ok. peace.

[allan_mark76]

Okay here are my opinions on the Red Covers vs San Merahs debate:

Right now I have both and both display a rich red base BUT I am finding a difference between the both.

Red Covers:
No BARS (juvenile and adults)
Red Deep base in the body with little or no brown base mixed.
Slight white/ghost face.
Little blue fade coloration on the dorsal/anal fin.

San Merahs
Bars apparent both on the body and on the face/eye area will dissapear as the discus matures but is apparent.
Brown base on the body first with patches of red forming as the discus matures with growth. The red coloration will deepen in color as the discus grows from the body outwards.
No white/ghost face. Brown base with bar along the eye region
Blue to Red fade on dorsal and anal fins


These are just my observations and I am finding that there is a difference between the Red Covers and the San Merahs as the red covers are crossed with something that expresses a deep red cover over the body as a juvenile.
What I am finding now with this hobby is it's all a "name game." I am constantly running into hobbyist who buy something named something ( ???) and come to find out that it's not what they originally wanted as they were buying a discus that was marketed supposedly "this and that" and come to find out that it's something totally opposite of what they initially thought it was. Personally a name of a strain is not legible unless you see the discus for yourself and can make a knowledgeable conclusion as to what you are buying. Also respected breeders/importers are what I look for when I buy discus now a days who are knowledgeable and trustworthy. A TRUSTWORTHY breeders/importer is what I mainly look for as I'd like to have them as a friend than some buisness person who sells discus.

Sounds good Allen,
Now Lets hit the Bar! And have a drink!
Cary Gld!

Good Post Allen,

What is the Source?


Where did you get your San Merahs and Red Covers?

Mike

[ALEXIS]

Great post Allen and I just love your observations on the diffrent ways these two fish color up as they mature! So of the two fish you just spoke of which is your favorite ?

[allan_mark76]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=12;action=display;threadid=6243

It seems this debate is endless....

Miles I have a quick question...have you ever questioned whether your red covers were really san merahs?!?!??! I'm not doubting your discus but since we are on the name game issue your red covers could really be san merahs if there really is no distinct difference between the two. JMHO.

Cary I just came back from lunch here at work and had a few at TGIF...sorry I couldn't wait for you...my tanks was low so I needed to fill up.... ::)

Mike I'm just basing my observations from my Sans and Red Covers that I have at home. All of my Sans and Red Covers are derived from Waynes and have been growing them up with a lot of TLC. Right now I'm really working hard on this strain as I really do see a lot of potential in the future with them as I feel they would really be nice to out cross them with something else or harden their genetics and increase the redness. The reason why I pay so much attention to them is because 1. NO PB genes i.e. peppering with a red based discus. 2. Brown/Red/Blue tones to strengthen on in the future with other discus to strenghten out the colors desired or undesired. 3. Minor inbreeding genetics so far with this strain versus others.
That's JMHO. Right now it's just a waiting game at the moment as I'm hoping (fingers crossed) that I will end up with a couple of pairs to work with.

Alexis the reason why I see so much in my observations is due to the fact that I have my San Merahs in one tank and Red Covers in another side by side. Having both of them separated and tanks next to each other you can see a distinct difference between the two, that and I spend so much time with them that my GF wants to kill them. J/K :-* --I think?!??!-- :-X
As far as my favorite...all discus are my favorite.... ::)

A-

Allen so you got them all from the same source then? Hmmm now I understand. Your just going by what you were told. You know the names that they sold to you as.

Hate to burst your bubble bro Red Cover = San Merah... they are the same fish different name.

If you ever breed them you will understand

Mike

[ALEXIS]

Mike they are not the same fish. The tones and shades of the fish are diffrent and they color up just the opposite of each other. I don't have to breed them to know that because I see pretty well. (Nothing Personal Buddy)

I have raised thousands I know what they are... Will just have to disagree Alexis :)

Mike

[SLY]

Red Cover and San merah are the same fish. LOL and allen how did san merah have bars on the face? if that's the case it's the throw back rose red from San..not the original San u are talking about.

Attached is Mr See Cheow San fish that won 1st at last year competition.

[SLY]

another pic.

Thats The Sly I know!


The cat is out of the Bag! Sly thats a kick a$$ Discus! I would pay $2000 but I bet it would sell for more!

cary gld!

[redlines]

Sly,

Now that is Absolutely ............... no words can express.


I wish that fish was mine!

Andy

Thank You Sly. Very nice fish I might add.

Now to all you "arm chair quarterbacks" and wannabe Asian Breeders with 2 fish tanks put your copy of Asian Discus 2 back on the shelf and go home...

This debate is over.

Mike

I honestly think thats the UGLIEST fish Ive EVER seen!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Tony :P
LMAO!! ;D

[ALEXIS]

Mike Sly posting a picture and agreeing with you does not end the debate. The fish are diffrent (look at them my brother). My cut and paste is not working for sum reason. I am asking you or Sly to cut and paste a Red Cover photo and a San Merah photo together and we will brake it down from the photos. Also Asian 2 plays no part in what I am stating.

Alexis do you know who Sly is?

Mike

[ALEXIS]

It does not matter who he is unless he created the two strians we are discussing !

You mean the one Strain.

Mike

[ALEXIS]

Mike I admire your candor and sense of humor it reminds me of a magician and a magic show. Is it really happening or did you just miss it ? I am going to let this thread die as far as my participation is concerned. If you want the right answer you must first prepare your self for the truth and what it brings !

[SLY]

Which fish and which fish are different Alexis? those 2 pics are of the same fish..perhaps you might wanna fly down to Singapore and meet Mr See Cheow San if u are not convinced those are his San Merah. Like I said before San Merah will not have Stress bar on their forehead..if there is then it's the throw back rose red..everyone knows that. And if you want San Juveniles with bars that you think would disappear or fade as they grow..I will be more than glad to get you some if you are willing to pay.

This is waynes Red Cover if u like..picture are taken from Jeff Young site.

http://www.discusfarm.us/redcover.jpg

[SLY]

My own san if u like.

[OEG]

Sly,
Youre post of Mr.See Chows fish is absolutely breath taking, I also enjoy reading youre verry knowledgeable posts. Keep it up Sly. :o :o :o
Oscar

[SLY]

OEG..thanks for the compliments..I am also still learning in this hobby..it's a never ending process..long way to go. ;D

I also want to add that San merah female have nicer red tone than male..the red is richer than the male especially during spawning mood..the female fish would be as red as tomato. ;)

[Jeff]

Good job Sly. Color enhancer does make a big difference. It will even hide the faint stress bars on the rose reds. The red cover from my site does not have any color enhancer, but I must admit I like the sans with color enhancer even better. ;)