MY experimental Planted tank.....

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
After reading thru so many of the posts in this section I decided to set up a non- bare glass tank, and see how it went. I've done this before, and have raised some decent looking fish in gravel tanks, planted densely with amazon swords, java fern, and vals. I would never call it a show tank, and its definetly not a biotope tank.

What it is though is a gravel substrate tank, with a chunk of driftwood, and some miscellaneous Plants. I just lik the look and like how the fish behave in it. This is the type of tank I had set up before. The idea was to tinker around from this starting point..something that I was familar with, and work from it, adding different plant , toying with substrates, and water chemistry, Uv sterilizers, companion fish, co2 etc.

The tank has a temp of 85F, pH of 7.2 , and conductivity of 350us (its my tap water). My initial experiment was for weekly water changes of 50-75%, and feeding the adults 1x a day. The substrate is a medium size common brown gravel from an aquarium store. For the potted sword.... its the same same gravel, with a 1inch layer of peat , 2/3's towards the bottom of the pot. I do not add fertilizers to the water at this point, but I do add a 325 mg ferrous sulfate vitamen pill to the pot monthly, as well a calcium citrate pill ( the kind people take as vitamens)
Lighting is a 30 inch strip light with dual 30 watt cool white commercial lighting. Lighting is one of the parameters I intend to experiment on.
Filtration is one aquaclear 500 with prefilter, and there is a supplimental airstone.
I had this tank running for a few months with a pair of angels. Last week I set it up for with four adult Discus, One was a known male. I was hoping for a pair, as this is a 50 gal tank, and I wanted to dedicate the tank to one pair of fish. The idea was to also raise a spawn in the tank.


The tank...
http://a4.cpimg.com/image/7A/03/16443514-5b25-021C0195-.jpg

http://a2.cpimg.com/image/78/03/16443512-043e-021C0195-.jpg

http://a7.cpimg.com/image/73/03/16443507-1b33-021C0195-.jpg

http://a5.cpimg.com/image/8F/04/16443535-feda-021C0195-.jpg

Things moved ahead a little quicker than I had planned, and I got a pair afew days ago, so I pulled the other two fish after the pair spawned .

The pair...

http://a9.cpimg.com/image/89/04/16443529-ee0d-018C0210-.jpg

http://a3.cpimg.com/image/2D/09/16443693-353d-02000180-.jpg

I had hoped to have a little more time to work on the tank, but since we are on day 2 and the eggs still look good, I guess I will wait a little longer before I start doing any changes. I'd be thrilled if this pair raises fry in the tank. The male has only spawned 3 X ( the blue) , The female (the red turq) has only spawned 2 times, so I am not to sure that they will succeed this time around. They are tending the eggs very well though,and haven't eaten any yet. Theres also the possibility that I may not get a good hatch rate because of my tap water, but I have gotten fry in the past with just my tap water...though the rates are very low.

http://a6.cpimg.com/image/9A/04/16443546-3217-0195021C-.jpg

http://a2.cpimg.com/image/96/04/16443542-e738-0195021C-.jpg

I'll try to post about this tank as I change things around. Suggestions for different things to try are welcome, as well as sources for plants that can tolerate 85 F and relatively low lighting. I have a green thumb with land plants, and studied botany extensively,so if I can find the time (not likely but I'll try) I should be able to comeup with some neat possibilities here.

Wish me luck....

-al

ps at this point there are no other fish in the tank.

[Ralph]

Wow Al, you've been busy.
I can't remember seeing a picture of discus using driftwood for a breeding site (they always go for the PVC), though that must be what they use in the wild. That is an amazing picture. I can't wait to see some free swimmers in there.
How did you get the driftwood to stay like that? I assume it's attached to a flat piece of something, what did you use for the base?
Plants and heat: I think it would be a shorter list if you compile the plants that can't handle it. My tanks are up around 91 degrees here in the summer (Phoenix) (I actually have to cool them), and the only plants I've had trouble with are the so-called stem plants, and not all of them. Generally if you look at where they are originally from, it is a good guide to their survivability (S. America, Africa, S. Asia, Australia are usually good - N. America, Europe, N. Asia - less likely).
Good luck with the eggs!

[brewmaster15]

Hi Ralph,
That driftwood has a slate base, which didn't hold the wood down at all. But it gave it just enough of lip so that I could weigh it down with rocks The rocks I used are granite from a quarry near by..its actually a world famous quarry.... called Stony Creek Granite. Its famous for its unique pink tones. .... I've always used them in the tank as they have little effect on pH except maybe shifting it down a few degrees.

Thanks,
-al

[Wahter]

Keep us informed of how the eggs/ fry do Al. Nice pics.

You can try some anubias plants like a. barteri (var barteri, var nana, var coffeefolia) - they will tolerate the heat very well. Java fern (microsorum pteropus) should do okay too.

Personally, I like those heavier root woods - like mopani, wellaby, etc... and I like to position them so they form an archway in the tank - leaning one end in the corner and the other end near the center of the tank. The discus can then swim beneath it. You can use a couple of pieces of different lengths to give the appearance of branchy roots.

Walter

[brewmaster15]

Hi Walter, thanks for the ideas. maybe something like this?

-al

[dm]

I think it is great Brew. It is good to see people who realize there is more than one way to do it and do it more than one way. Let us know how things progress. :thumbsup:

[RandalB]

HA HA Brew has gone over to the dark side!

LOL
RandalB

[brewmaster15]

Actually Randal, I started on the dark side with a planted gravel tanks, and yes, even under gravel filters! Then I switched when I wanted to breed the discus.


I have over 18 bare glass tanks and think the fish in them are doing fine. I think planted and/or biotope tank are my next challenge. I believe they can be done, as I have seen others do it. Theres much to learn though and I'm a little bored with all the bare glass tanks I have. So ..its time to go back to school. :) I also love plants, and have studied them for years...so why not try to merge the two into one tank?

If it can be done I want to be able to say I did it. and that includes all aspects of this hobby.

Besides...its the closest I'll come to seeing Discus in the wild. :'(

-al

[ChloroPhil]

Brew,

That's a great tank! Thanks for the reminder too...I need to go out and get some calcium pills for my swords too.

Good luck with the spawn!

[ronrca]

Hooray! Al has seen the light! LOL! ;D

About plants and high temps, I have had no troubles yet! My planted tank is around 88-89F in the winter and on really hot days in the summer can reach 91F. The plants are growing like crazy however I had not tried a whole lot of plants. The only troubles I did have was with the fish in the beginning! This was because of the changing in temp from day to night. When the lights are on, the tank does heat up to around 88F. During the night, it will cool down to 82F. This was not good for the fish and they started showing signs of disease. I did lose a school of rasboras though this along with dwarf rainbows and rams. Once I figure the problem out, I set my heaters to 86F and since then, I have had no problems at all, thank goodness!

Keep us posted, Al! Good luck with your breeding! ;)

[TOMMY]

Hey Al, what's that green stuff sticking out of the driftwood? It looks kind like amazon swords!

-Tom-

[brewmaster15]

Hi Tom, thats a computer generated plant :) its actually supposed to be more like java ferns, and anubias.... which what is going to be planted there.! ;)

-al

[TOMMY]

Cool! Could've fooled me! I kind of have a similar set-up in my 72g but I use Malaysian driftwood because they are easier to work with. How do you plan to have plants sticking out of the driftwood? Back in Hawaii my mother used to tie orchid roots to the tree branches and over time the roots actually started growing on the bark of the trees!

-Tom-

[brewmaster15]

Hi Tom,
Java ferns have rhizoms similar to those orchids and will do the same. This driftwood is pretty old and cracked...plenty of attachment sites for rhizoms and roots. I may drill a few holes for the anubias, and actually pack the hole with some media,not sure on that one.
-al

[TOMMY]

That sounds great! Something that I would like to do for my tank. I've always had these 2 driftwoods and made a little arch for the children... Whenever they are "sleeping" or get spooked, they all congregate under the arch. It's amazing how something so simple can give them so much comfort. It's also quite a sight!

-Tom-

[dm]

Hey Al!
Can your computer generate some plants for my new tank? I need lots of them and they are kind of expensive. You've got my e-mail address to send them right? ;D ;D ;D :thumbsup:

[brewmaster15]

here you go Dale. ...
we can easily move the plants around if you don't like the lay out. ....But that driftwood was a bear to move around ;) ;D ;D

-al

ps... whats so tough about planted tanks anyhow? :)

[ronrca]

Hey! You stole that new 125G tank! Man, I wanted it! :whip:

[Ralph]

Love your new tank Dale! And talk about low maintenance.

[dm]

Nice job Brew, thanks. I wish it really looked like that. I put the water in and the piece of driftwood I have is so big the tannins almost have the water completely brown. Send me the big red Discus ok? I'll pay the postage.

[TOMMY]

I was looking at them too! What kind of discus are they? I wouldn't mind having a couple of those in my bowfront!!! ;D ;D ;D As a matter of fact I have a (discus savings account) where I go out and get cashier's checks and put it in my little secret spot at home. I plan to use the funds as soon as the weather gets a little warmer...sometime around June this year.

-Tom-

[brewmaster15]

Hi Tom,
Those are digitally colorized Marlboro Reds from Cary at Great Lakes Discus. ....this is what the real fish looks likes now....

http://a6.cpimg.com/image/60/D9/16545376-0a77-01F801BF-.jpg

http://a5.cpimg.com/image/5F/D9/16545375-034b-021C0195-.jpg

they are beauties and I'd definelty say...spend your savings on some from him!!

-al

[ChloroPhil]

Hey Al have you decided what kind of plants you're going to put in there?

[TOMMY]

Hey Al! Is that a pair you got there??? I see a breeding cone!!! Are you planning on breeding them anytime soon???

-Tom-

[brewmaster15]

Hi Tom,
I have 6 adults, and 1 pair out of them so far. They have spawned a few times, but are practicing getting it right.. They are young still, only about 1 1/2 years old.

Hi Phil,
i just placed an order for some Bolbitus heudelotti, Anubias barterii var.nana, and Nymphaea zenkerii for starters. I Think the Bolbitus and Anubias will be fine, the Nymphaes may be a challenge. I bought these from Rehoboth aquatics.

I'd like to get some java ferns as well as Anubia Lanceolata, and some Vals, as well as maybe some riccia. I think I will try Robert at Aquabotanic for additional plants.

I'm thinking of starting this project off as a medium to low light tank, and taking it from there.


-al

[brewmaster15]

Heres an update on the eggs.... The female ate the eggs prior to them hatching. Th male was definetly not a hapy camper about it. My thoights are the female was never really done spawning the last time around as she has layed eggs again. This time on the Sword pot. This is only a few days after the last spawn. The male is extremely protective of the eggs thi time. If I so much as go near the tank, he positions himslef between the eggs and me.

The eggs are about 48 hours old now, halfe are white, the others look good... time will tell....

http://a0.cpimg.com/image/7C/4E/16564860-383b-021C0195-.jpg

http://a7.cpimg.com/image/83/4E/16564867-b579-021C0195-.jpg

http://a0.cpimg.com/image/86/4E/16564870-c6ad-021C0195-.jpg

http://a3.cpimg.com/image/89/4E/16564873-164c-021C0195-.jpg

-al

[TOMMY]

What strain is that Male? I got a similar female from Cary a while ago... Funny thing though, I had a red turk male that used to go out with that female blue but now my male pb has got her! I wonder what weird color babies would come out of that combo! :P

-Tom-

[Wahter]

Hi Al,

I was thinking along the lines of this photo (from Amano's Aquajournal 37), but have the "arch" higher off the bottom of the tank.

[Jeffery_Doty]

Brew,

I have been enjoying your project! How about some new photos, and an update on your progress.

Jeff
Oregon

[brewmaster15]

Hi jeff,
I'll see what I can do . My plants got held up at the post office because of the snow storm we had. They came in yesterday and are in the tank floating.

The pair ate the eggs again, and 2 days ago layed them on the driftwood again. They were there this am. so all is still good. Very few white eggs this time.


-al

[brewmaster15]

Just a quick update, 3 was the charm...sort of! Out of about 150 eggs, theres about 75 wigglers today. I took a couple of pics but they are not very good.

The male is really aggressive towards the female though, her scales are taken a beating. I have a feeling they will probably eat these wigglers, but its only the third try so I am happy. The new plants are just sitting there still. With the pair fighting as they are... I don't want to agitate them any more than necessary.

-al

[Ralph]

They sound like they are intent on getting this right, is it normal to lay batches of eggs in quick succession like that?

I once had root plants floating in a tank for a month and I never saw any negative effects, so they should be able to handle the delay.

Looking forward to photos.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Ralph, I have some pairs that lay eggs every week if I pull them for artificial, others go for months without a spawn and them lay many eggs.

Generally I have seen them lay eggs again quickly if they eat them or I remove them. I think it depends alot on the pair, and this female probably didn't lay all her eggs the first 2 times, as they were literally 3 days apart!

I hope these guys get it right, but I am patient.

-al

[brewmaster15]

So far they have about 50 fry scattered on one side of the driftwood. tough to get a good pic, but this at least documents it.....

-al

[ChloroPhil]

Congratulations! That's awesome!!!!!!

[brewmaster15]

Hi everyone,
Just thought I'd do an update here. The fry never made it :'(, They just disappeared one day. but thats okay. i needed to tear that tank apart any how.

Yesterday i went to my friend Franciscos' and raided his planted tanks. He also gave me some Laterite for the tank, which I mixed 50-50 with the existing gravel.

I pretty much removed everything, including the fish, replanted the tank , and added the pair. They spawned an hour latter( she looked like she would bust)

okay...here we go...

[brewmaster15]

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[brewmaster15]

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[brewmaster15]

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[brewmaster15]

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[brewmaster15]

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[Francisco_Borrero]

That is amazing Al!! An hour after going in the tank !
The tank is looking mighty nice. You did a superb job attaching those Anubias and Java ferns. Don't be offended, but the big sword will get cramped around the corner of the tank very quickly, and it is a bit too close. It doesn't seem so now, but the underground part grows so very big and fast, it's incredible (today I attempted to pull the other half of that sword, and the root mass extends all the way to the other end of the 75gal tank....that's almost 4 feet away! I didn't pull it as the person who was going to take it chickened out). Being cramped may be what results later on some leaves dying at the rear.
You have more plants here for the other tank if you want them. Ohh..., and for the next picture, you need to wipe the outside of the tank.
Happy to hear our wilds settled in nicely. Cheers, Francisco.

[Ralph]

That driftwood looks great, Al.

Better luck with this batch. One hour, wow.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Francisco,
I remember about sword and the corner of the tank, but you grew it so darn big, it doesn't really fit. :D I guess it will just have to be really pruned. :) Odds are I'll rearrange that tank again soon.

As for the attaching of the Anubias and Java.... wasn't too hard, the wood is old and cracked and the metal thumb tacks are sharp ;) ;D ;D. I figure they'll hold it until the roots anchor well.

The Glass... I know I know.... but they were spawning and had that do not disturb sign on the tank ;D

Thanks again for everything!
-al

[DarkDiscus]

Al,

It looks like you have been having a lot of fun!

And the tank looks great - I think the experiement with plants is going to be long term...

John

[brewmaster15]

I really like this planted tank John, It reminds of when i was younger and used to spend all day exploring ponds and streams.

As a side note, the pair seem very happy in it. Very relaxed. To them it must be like adam and eve in paradise.

-al

[Ralph]

Several people have posted seeing their fish act calmer going to a decorated tank or showing problems going to an undecorated tank. Someone even said their fish stopped breeding after moving from the decorated tank. Certainly not a proof of anything but something that might be worth looking into. And it makes sense, a fish that evolved with many natural predators, a fish that relies on camouflage, evasion, and hiding for survival, it would logical to expect them to feel more comfortable with hiding spots

[dm]

The fish in my planted tank are much calmer than the ones in my BB. I am not saying it is better. Both certainly have their merits.

[henryD]

When you keep a BB tank do you have any hiding spot for fish? Is it normal not to have any?

I assumed everyone still had areas in the corner or somewhere for the fish to hide.

Hmmm do I have to change my approach?

[brewmaster15]

Hi,
Generally a bare bottom tank has absolutely nothing in it but fish, filters and heaters.....But there are variations that make use of drift wood, potted plants, etc.

It really depends on what it is you are trying to do. If breeding, its often easier to have a bare tank. If not breeding.. you can really set a tank up any way you like. 99% of my tanks are Bare. This one is not. Aesthetically, I like this one best. From a maintenance point of view I like it least.

Explore all the options before you change anything you are doing. :)

hth,
al