Discus Morality and where are we headed?

[daninthesand]

I find it amusing that there are so many varied opinions out there. Amusing because of the heat they raise. But then that's what makes us human right? And luckily, we are free to express our views and opinions.


Here's mine:(I am not pointing fingers at anyone here)

After reading a few posts today, a thought occurred to me. Well, several actually. (my head hurts)


On the issue of whether an inexperienced discus keeper should
"practice" on LFS fish, how about this angle....
Should a breeder sell quality fish to a novice? Should the breeder care? Where does the "responsibility" lie, in keeping the hobby in check.

Is this any different than bringing our grade B (or worse) fish to LFS to get rid of them? (I'm not suggesting here that "sick" fish are the same as B grade fish)

Each one of us has to decide what we are comfortable with. If we want to be the discus police, then we can suggest its our opinion that we should buy only grade A fish, (adult fish of course ::)) from respected breeders. We should not, then, buy these same breeders' culls. Furthermore the discus police would be hard pressed to justify selling any of his fish that were not perfect. Regardless of whether the buyer sees the fish or not. If you knowingly sell "bad" fish and don't announce it from the get go, then that seems a little dishonest to me (JMO)

Bottom line. There is a market for all discus. If nobody bought less than perfect fish then be assured that there would be a lot less discus breeders around. And those that continued to produce fish would command such a high price for their "perfect" fish that most of us would find it difficult to continue in this hobby. Lets face it, this hobby is expensive!

To start out slow, with inexpensive fish, is not such a bad idea, as long as one realizes this from the outset. Unfortunately inexpensive discus are more than likely culls either by shape, color, condition, history of care etc. (and unfortunately, too, there are a LOT of unscrupulous fish sellers out there)

If person X decides he/she wants to get into discus, eventually that person needs to buy discus. How much money does he have to spend? How easily accessible are discus in his area? Is there an airport within a couple hours drive to pick up fish should he decide he wants to get discus from a breeder? These are all questions that only the individual can answer. In her own circumstance, she gets what she can get, and spends what she feels comfortable spending.

As time goes on and her confidence builds, she can progress into better fish with the experience under her belt. Nothing wrong with that. (IMO)

This hobby would become a very elitist (sp?) one indeed were it not for those people who purchased the bazillion less than perfect discus out there. I would hazard a prediction that this hobby would all but disappear were it not for the supply/demand of "so so" fish.

I'll even let it be known that my opinion is this:

Those of us who are lucky to have some great fish in our tanks do so, at least partly, because of all those others who don't.

Daniel

Philosophy lesson 101 ;D

[Ralph]

Daniel, I had a conversation with another member the other day that had some of the points you mention.
It was framed though in terms of serious discus keepers, casual discus keepers, and newbies. Many newbies may end up being serious discus keepers but many maintain a casual approach to discus. The casual discus keeper, who probably outnumber serious keepers by 10 to 1, have a different set of values. They may be very happy to have a $20. football in a planted tank with gouramis, and do WCs when they get around to it. I personally don't feel comfortable telling that person they are wrong and they should do it like I do.
The point I was trying to make though is that if the board wants to welcome the casual discus keeper, we should adapt our advise to their situation and not insist on converting everyone to serious keepers. I am sure that the advise is given with the best intentions and is based on the health of the discus. But not everyone is going to do 50% WCs everyday and they should feel comfortable posting here.

I hope I didn't hijack the thread, if I missed your point, let me know.

[Jeffery_Doty]

Daniel and Ralph,

I agree with you both. I can imagine that many who stop by any discus forum find them to be very elitist, and only catering to those with lots of excess funds to spend. Folks on the forums fight over the few degrees of separation between each others discus, while the masses are happy with the remaining 99%. Trying to convert others to a different mindset about "their" hobby does seem somewhat egotistical.

Having dealt with many folks over the last couple of years, what I have heard from them goes something like, "I would rather buy 5 $20 discus from you, than 1 $100 discus." Everyone has a different idea about what is pleasing to them, or what the pursuit of excellence means. I think there is room to respect all viewpoints.

Jeff
Oregon

I can agree with everything said in this thread. But I find there to be a big difference between buying Grade B fish (or worse) vs. buying fish that are unhealthy, black & hiding. One of the skills that this forum is constantly trying to reinforce is how to properly select a healthy Discus, regardless of where you are buying it. And if the person who is considering buying these fish asks for opinions he/she should expect to get opinions for & against such a purchase. I believe that is what happened recently. I doubt the reactions against making the purchase would have been as vehement (or at least not from the same people) if the proposed Discus were healthy & vibrant in the LFS. I don't doubt for a second that there are suitable Discus to be found at a LFS, but getting sick, damaged fish is a poor way to enter the hobby in my opinion.

Dave

[daninthesand]

Ralph.

I don't think you hijacked the thread at all. Your points seem well placed and concise.

I think you have raised a few things that I thought about many times as well. I too would hate for this hobby to become so complicated that it scares the "average" hobbyist away. And i do not mean to suggest that the "average" hobbyist is less deserving of respect than many of the "elitist" hobbyists. (nor vice versa) I'd hope there is room for all of them. Especially on this forum.

I can imagine many "lurkers" might be in the wings, perhaps new to discus and genuinely might want some advice from some of the more experienced discus keepers here. I can also imagine many of them might be reluctant to even become members for fear of being berated by criticism or just insensitive comments about their goals, intentions or heaven forbid, they post a picture of a less than A+ fish (unless of course they ask for opinions!).

BTW. I consider myself an average hobbyist at a stretch, more likely an advanced newbie. I try my best with what time and resources I can muster.

Hopefully we all can come to realize that we all started somewhere and have things to learn. Let's leave room for the not so fanatic fish keepers out there. :)

And Jeffery, I think you hit the nail on the head.

Respect.

Have respect for other discus keepers intentions or goals and their (perhaps) at times, limited access to resources. Have respect , too, for their courage to try their hand at these fish. Lets face it. It ain't easy! Scaring them away with, "you MUST do this or MUST do that", or criticizing their questions is not (IMO) what this forum should be. And I think by far this forum and its members do a pretty good job of appearing welcoming and creating a place to share ideas. But then there are some who IMO tend to be a little judgmental (I guess now I'm being judgmental!)

I do not intend to stand on a soapbox here and I guess it might seem like that's what I'm doing. So I'll quit now.

But hopefully some reluctant newbie out there might read this and feel compelled to join the forum knowing some of us ( in fact most I hope) will welcome them, despite what might be our own personal opinions and help them along in a caring way.

Nuf said.

[Ralph]

I understand what you are saying Dave, and I don't think that anybody is advocating sick discus. But I think that many of the aquarists here are very experienced and very dedicated to our hobby, and that sometimes, without intending to, come across to the casual keeper as being somewhat fanatic in our fish keeping practices. And I want to be clear that I am not criticising anyone, I myself am ordering my own TDS meter.
My point is though that we should keep this in mind when giving advise. In general the board will be better off if we try to provide information as opposed to telling people what to do. And I know that it is a thin line sometimes between the two.
I don't like giving examples because the conversation becomes about the example. But, people have asked what kind of catfish goes well with discus and have been told not to keep any other fish with their discus. I think we could better help that person by telling them about the importance of guarantine, what dangers to watch out for, and where to find that info if it already exists on the board or someplace else.
I don't think we are far apart on this really.

[daninthesand]

Dave.

You are right, buying sick diseased fish is no way to start this hobby. And I agree with you 100% that we need to inform all hobbyists of what a good fish is. This can only help the hobby as a whole. If the hobbyist asks for advice then so be it.

My post was triggered by recent posts, but it is something I have been thinking about for a long time. I feel that sometimes there is too much emphasis placed on perfection.

For what its worth....

Daniel

[Don_Lee]

Well said all! Great thread!

Don ;D

[Wolf]

I agree with most of what has been said. When I first started keeping discus a year ago, I found this website and DPH and started my research. I have wanted to keep discus for over 10 years now but always felt like they were too delicate and expensive for me to keep them at the time.

However, there are different types of people in the world. Some people are satisfied with average performance. I myself always put 100% into any hobby I start and am a perfectionist. I came here looking for honest advice from experts on the quality of the fish I had. I found out although mine aren't A or A+ fish I did an ok job of picking out my first fish. I wasn't upset or never felt like I was being put down at any time. I was given honest and truthful advice. A year later, I know how to pick out a good fish. I even have a breeding pair and am raising fry from the first two fish I bought. If people are afraid of the truth or to accept criticism, then they will get upset when they post pictures of sickly or runted fish. Then there are the others that truly appreciate the advice they have been given, chalk it up as a learning experience and move on to getting higher quality and better fish. I'm not sure if there should ever be a market for sickly fish but after raising a batch of fry. I have come to understand there are always quality fish, average fish, below average fish and culls in every batch you raise. I think selling these less than desirable fish at a cheaper price is good. I don't think selling these fish at the price an A or A+ grade fish and passing it off as quality is acceptable.

Keeping discus is just like any other learning experience. No one starts off as an expert. It takes time, experience and serious study to improve at anything. It's doesn't help the hobby to criticize or make a beginner feel like a fool but it also doesn't help if you don't give constructive and honest opinions when they ask a question either. That's my 2 cents.

[daninthesand]

It's doesn't help the hobby to criticize or make a beginner feel like a fool but it also doesn't help if you don't give constructive and honest opinions when they ask a question either. That's my 2 cents.



Wolf. This is exactly what I was trying to suggest. You said it much better than I did. Thanks.

[jim_shedden]

great thread.......thought provoking..............it hurts........... ;D

[brewmaster15]

Dan,
please make yourself at home at that soapbox anytime.... I agree with you 100%.... :)

,..... and to everyone on this site......

You should never feel like a fool for what you ask or what others feel you should know or feel you should do. If you do feel that way after participating here then we are not accomplishing what we want this site to do, and I would like to know about it.

take care,
al

Hi,
When discussing "good fish" please bear in mind there are two types of "good".
1) genetically good and 2) good looking.

The genetically good fish are fishes you can resonably replicate and will at least resemble the parents, while the good looking fish that many of us breed and sell are truly "genetic junk". They look good, shape and color wise but the progeny will not look anything like the parents. jmo.

[daninthesand]

Runner.

Yes, this too is a valid point. One man's junk is another man's gold so to speak. Depends on what you are looking for i guess. we each have our "ideal" discus in mind I suppose.

For those who have no intention to breed discus then the "good looking "discus as you call them are just as valuable to the non-breeder as the "genetically good". However the first kind might be a bit cheaper to purchase than the latter....

Daniel

[AndyL]

Heh, as the new member looking at buying sick fish, can I interject my point of view here?

I'm not the worlds most experienced fish keeper, in fact I've only been back in the hobby for about a year now. (And just recently accidentally killed my two favorite fish; still learning). The way I see it, is most fish sold are sold at the LPS/LFS, sadly a good percentage of those sales probably even come from walmart. This is where 99% of the fish owners out there come from. Most fish tanks are an impulse purchase, how many of you went out, researched read everything there was to know before going out and buying your first tank (or goldfish+bowl)?

If your average Joe walked into a pet store, looking to get a fishtank and some fish; and saw that all fish (even little neon tetras) cost 5-10 times what they do now (can you imagine a 10$ neon tetra?) but were perfect in every way. How many people do you think would buy those fish? Think back to your days as a rookie fishkeeper, how many fish did you loose? I remember when I killed my 3rd fish, a 5$ Pictus cat, I was seriously pissed, almost quit right then (He was my favorite). I guarantee you, at 20$ I would never have bought him.

There is a place for the less than perfect fish in this world, they're probably what got us all into this hobby. Caused us enough intrigue, wonder and amazement to spend thousands on new hardware and new fish. Was that first goldfish your mom bought you perfect? A show stopper?

I'm not advocating breeders selling culls, in fact it disgusts me. At the same time, I do sell a few fish to the LPS' none are show winners, but at the same time, they are good healthy fish. I do keep the best fish for myself, or to sell privately to people I know want a quality of fish better than what can be found at the LPS. I don't see a problem with that, the stores know I have better quality fish but aren't willing to pay the price for them, they know their market and they know how much they need to mark up those fish to cover rent, payroll etc. who are we to argue with them? But I guarantee you, if they keep getting unsatisfactory fish from one source, they'll look for a new supplier.

Basically it comes down to this, those LPS sales of less than grade A discus, are what will draw someone into the discus species. They may not get something great at first, heck it could very well be dead the next day. But those who do have some success with the LPS discus will probably learn about what they have, and will probably make a better purchase the next time they want some new fish.

Andy

[daninthesand]

Hi Andy.

Your point of view and experience I think is typical of many of us here. In my case, I started out pretty much the same way: goldfish bowl, 10 gallon, etc etc. I've been keeping fish ever since I can remember. When I got into discus I had the opportunity to get about 6 very nice cobalts (adults) from an aquaintance who was moving away. I paid a LOT for them. This was before the internet and the access to all this great information.

However I knew very little about raising them or water chemistry etc. They were all dead within a few months. I swore never again! That was mostly because I had spent so much money on them. Had I started with cheaper discus, I might have tried it again and put more effort into learning how to care for them properly. But the loss was hard on my meager student pocketbook (at the time).

So there is a place in this hobby for the cheap fish. Maybe even sick fish. I would be reluctant to buy knowingly sick fish. (although I have done it)

How many of us have NEVER EVER had to deal with disease in our discus? Despite what condition they are in when we get them. I for one have had my share of trouble with disease in my tanks, Its a fact of life in this hobby. Who knows, maybe buying sick fish at the get go, for very little money, is THE way to get started. Think of the pride in being able to rescue these fish and move onto to bigger and better things as money allows. Seems like a valuable learning experience to me. Something you might as well get used to.

Different strokes for different folks. Is there any one way to do things? With all the info here on this forum (and other sources) seems there are as many ways to raise discus as there are varieties of them.

Good luck Andy, as you learn, (along with me and the rest of us) your way through this maze of fish husbandry we call discus keeping.

Daniel

[Jeffery_Doty]

Andy,

Great post and excellent observations. The learning curve can be much easier for many folks if they don't feel like they broke their budget on the 1st few discus they buy. And, there is no substitute for experience, and getting that experience on less expensive discus is not a bad idea for most of us.

Jeff
Oregon

[steve s]

Sometimes we forget. Discus were a very rare fish 5-15
years ago. Most were sold by people who had a few tanks
at home and 150 fry! Now we have breeders who are pros,
Big operations, lots of cost, large investments of time and energy.
Like any other kind of business in todays world you have
K-marts and Tiffanys. These business both sell jewelry,
you are the one who picks where you buy. But most of the
peoples purchases fall somewhere in the middle.
This forum helps fish people make the right choice for thier
needs.

[Willie]

Dan;

You are to be congratulated on a most thought provoking thread. Some of the discussion is politically incorrect. I love your early point: If everyone bought only perfect discus, who would buy the less than perfect ones?

Lots of people have made valuable contributions and I won't repeat what they said. Many of the forum participants have genuinely learned what to look for in a high quality fish. The discussions of discus shape and color have proved most valuable for me in deciding what to keep from my spawns. The roundest ones go to discus hobbyists, the football ones to go the LFS, and the deformed ones go into the freezer.

The problem I see is the self appointed "discus police". Those that label any flaw as unacceptable. Not only do they come off as complete stuffed shirts, but they have intimidated many others from posting pictures of their own fish.

In my opinion, the discus I have are slightly better from average. But they are far from perfect. They seem less and less perfect everytime I see a post from our Singapore friends. If I get unhappy about that, then I probably have a problem with the other parts of my life.

The other point is that its impossible to pick a perfect fish at 2". You can pick a fish without obvious flaws: nice shape, small eyes, no deformities, but you can't predict the pattern, the amount of speckling, etc. I have a female PB from Dennis which started out solid. I got the fish from him as an adult about six months ago and its now highly patterned.

If someone sells fish which are obviously deformed or sick, they should be called on it. If someone sells fish which do not turn out to be perfect, its not a crime.

Just my 2 cents, Willie

[Don_Lee]

Great points Willie. I chafe against self appointed experts who proclaim what fish should look like, and feel that those kinds of attitudes can kill the hobby. At the same time, I love the education available here and from many of our knowledgeable members. IMO, the most important part of expressing ones views is doing so in a humble and kind way.

Don ;D

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

I don't think any one has higher standards than I do,
That being said, the fact is what I call the perfect Discus is one in probably 500. And most of the time it is one that some one else has.
The fact is they vary just like any other living thing.
Hey I wish I was a little taller maybe a little thinner etc.
What it all boils down to, do we like the fish we have.
There is just to much emphasis put on about the quality of the fish.
After all health is much more important.

Willie I have never seen a fish change so much after a year of age as the PB you got from me. The wife said she will take her back any time.
Dennis

[daninthesand]

Yep.

I've got a few footballs in my tanks. But I like them just the same. and I'm gonna breed 'em too. :o (Hopefully) hahahahaha.

They're healthy and happy. good for them. good for me.


Daniel

[BlueTurquoise]

Wow guys, this is deap stuff! Head is really hurting! It is really rare that you come across a thread were you are compelled to read every word and go "hmmm" after every post on that thread.

Many things said here exactly describes the diverse nature of our hobby. We really have to realise that there is a market for grade B or below fish just as there is a market for "throw away" brand cars. We can't go out there and give advice that is not on the recievers level of the hobby, unless they are truly asking you for it. It is hard. We can only do our best...

I know for a fact that in Australia there is a big gap between discus hobbyists. Even then there are still differing oppinions on differing aspects of the hobby regarding discus grades and breeds. Even double standards etc.

I am going to go take an asprin now and lie down for awhile... ;D

Chong

Willie,
Those are some excellent points you brought out. Love to hear more from you. Take care. btw, I have also read some of your other responses somewherelse regarding genetics..well written.

Dan,
Your previous post shows your genuine love for discus. It's hobbyits like you that strengthen our base. Please keep it up.

Dennis,
I like your high standards. Do you mind sharing with me what criteria do you follow in your choice of selection of "quality" in regards to purchasing and selection of potential breeders? thanks.

[dm]

This can be looked at as human nature as much as being a Discus issue. You see it everywhere. Don't a lot of people want the best looking girlfriend, a nice big house and drive a car they can't afford. They feel like if they aren't "out-doing" everyone else they are not succeding. These are the people who sometimes seem to try to hold all others to their standards. This does not mean everyone with nice Discus or everyone who strives to have the best Discus is a snob. There is the other side of it too. Some people are very conservative about their lives but hold very high standards when it comes to their hobby. Coin collectors want to get the rarest and nicest coins, dog breeders want the best looking dogs. If they look down their nose to their neighbor for having a mutt then they are a snob, if they demand perfection from their hobby but do not expect others to understand or conform to their standards then they are just a hard core enthusiest. There is nothing wrong with people wanting to achieve perfection. But they need to keep in mind that they are the minority and most people don't feel that way. I am not just a Discus lover or just a fish lover. I am an animal lover. We have a zillion (it seems) fish, birds, cats a dog rabbits turtles, etc. When we got the rabbits they came from a tiny cage in the back of the feed store. We coulndnt care less if they are pure or not. Our dog came from the pound. I just shrug and smile when people ask me what kind she is, but I would do anything for that little mutt. Sure when I buy Discus I will get the best looking ones I can. But only what I can afford too. And I won't regret it as long as they are healthy. What are you? A Discus purist or an average hobbiest or a hard core animal lover? Whatever it is, good for you as long as you enjoy these wonderful fish. Just please never try to turn an animal lover into a purist. It just doesnt work that way.

You gotta admit though, it can get confusing. How do we deal with these issues? Like the guy who wants to keep one Discus in a community tank at 78ºF? Or keep 10 small Discus in a 10g tank and isn't concerned that they may not grow to full size. Or knowingly buys sick fish? Or cleans his tank whenever? Or claims to have success with a tank with a UGF that never gets vacuumed and has a 2" layer of mulm on top of the gravel? Or never quarantines new fish and criticizes the breeder/LFS for fish losses. What concerns me about this thread is that we will all become so sensitive to the different ways of maintaining a tank full of Discus and the feelings of the poster that we stop providing our opinions of valid / proven methods and details of our experiences if they don't coincide with the posters methods. In that case books are the best resource for information since they don't interact with the reader but instead they merely spell out the better methods of keeping Discus and therefore no arguments can ensue or feelings get hurt.

It's human nature to debate/argue. Everyone agrees that there are different ways to keep Discus. But if we agree on that then we should also understand that debates over these methods are bound to happen. When we stop debating the appropriateness of these methods then there will be little to discuss here but chit chat. And that's ok too but we should consider that that's where this type of thing is headed. In the end a lengthy FAQ on each subject might suffice.

For my part I post much less then I have in the past. If someone says their fish have cloudy eyes and they change water weekly I'm not going to tell them to change it daily and the problem will go away... (what if they can't afford the time or expense?) If someone complains about their LFS fish dying I won't point out that IMO LFS fish are inherently weak and sick... (Probably a good idea, it's none of my business and is an incorrect statement in a lot of cases. And this person may not be able to afford anything but LFS fish.) When a person shows small football-shaped fish with big eyes I don't point out that the person who sold them those fish was misrepresenting the quality... (It would only be my opinion so not worth stating. One thing that should be considered in this "quality" vs. "affordability debate is that many poor quality fish are sold for huge $$$). I'm not trying to be argumentative on this thread. I just fear that the usefulness of the information here will suffer if no one is willing to state a differing opinion.

Dave

Hi,
IMO, it's ok to agree to disagree, but checking your ego at the door before entering is a prudent step towards civil debate/engagements. ...and a sprinkle of humour goes a long way too, (reminds me of some of Cary's post..very funny and memorable., would like to see more of you in those modes, bro(F16).). peace.

[dm]

More very good points to consider.

[daninthesand]

good points all.

Dave I agree with most of what you said. I, like you, post a lot less than I used to for many of the same reasons you stated. After all, who am I to judge another person's ideas? But its true, when encountering someone who is clearly asking for advice, one should offer their opinion based on their experience. What I find, is that all too often, it is done with less than tactful means.

I'm not suggesting that there is never any reason to argue, but it gets to be a bit much sometimes. I think part of it stems with the fact that on a faceless, expressionless forum like this somehow a lot is lost in the translation of the printed word to the intent or tone to which one reads the comments.

So I try as best I can to put some thought into what I write. Heck even a few smilies help at times too. ;D ;D

Runner, yes being civil is what I hope we all strive for.

Of course, then again, this is only my opinion.

Good discussions going on here. And no flaming going on either! Nice!

Daniel

the fact is what I call the perfect Discus is one in probably 500

Dennis that is bit of a streach isn't it...... You need to go through 2 spawns or three just pick one good fish...... Moreover you can take an award winner and turn it in to a crapy looking one with improper care and a crappy looking young fish and turn it in to an award winning fish, genetics permitted...... What is your standard in culling from a spawn..... What is your perfect fish???? Any time you pick a good fish out of the spawn there is still a chance of them turning out bad/not to your expectation. inspite of the best care..... Would like to hear the process that you use....

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

Anand
Yes that was streching things a bit.
What I would call a perfect fish might be 5 to 10% of a spawn, provided it is a quality pair to start with, that has not been arleady inbred to much.
And yes through neglect you can riun a fish, but no matter how good the care is you can't make an ugly duckling a show fish.
To me a perfect fish is not only round but well proportioned.
This means no indentation on the fore head, properly developed throat and stomach and fins, and a reasonable sized eye. Color that is outstanding for the strain, and large.
Dennis

This means no indentation on the fore head, properly developed throat and stomach and fins, and a reasonable sized eye. Color that is outstanding for the strain, and large.

Isn' t that little ambiguous? Since all the qualities you mentioned a pretty much relative to ones preference, since there is no set standard for the breed, ofcourse I am disregarding any visible and obvious defects. I am sure more than 10% of a spawn will be free of any defects.... an no two maybe exactly be proportional to each other..... Moreover unless you raise them all and compare each with every other... it is pretty much hard to tell which one is better. Not to mention it will make it impossible to distinguish them at a younger age.
Which brings in the possibility that the one you purchase may not be the best of the bunch. Worst of which is you will never know unless you bred and raise them all..... So at the end of the day it pretty much boils down to, Whether you like the way your discus looks or not, when you walk in to your fish room, or in other words "beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder" Am I not right?????

[Ralph]

Hi Dave,
I hope we never get to the point where we can't give advice or have a debate.

Generally the best way to help someone is to tailor the response to their skill level and goals as an aquarist. You wouldn't necessarily give the same advice to a breeder as you would a newbie. And usually the questioner provides that information in their post. And if they don't, we can ask.

The examples you gave are all valid and common questions that are seen on the forum. The questions and their responses fall usually into three categories:

Health Issues - There is a general range of water parameters and aquarium conditions that are considered healthy for discus. It is valid to tell the questioner about this range and the possible problems of trying to keep discus outside of that range. But we've all read posts by people who have had success outside of the accepted range. Not only that, but the range often changes over time. UGFs were once considered state of the art, not too long ago a pH of 8.0 would have been thought to be certain death, and temps of 86 degrees were a minimum. I try (not always successfully) to qualify my answers to what I know and have experienced and give advice in terms of their skill level.

Discus Aesthetics - There is a general belief in what makes a good discus defined by size, shape, color, etc. It is generally accepted by breeders and competitions but it is not really based on any absolute. Wild discus generally don't look like that. A healthy discus will have some of those characteristics but not to that extreme extent to still be healthy. A newbie who posts a photo of their LSF rescue should be responded to differently than a professional breeder's photo.

Discus Keeper Lifestyles - This has to do with the person's goals as a discus keeper and vary from that LSF rescue in a planted community tank to people with fish rooms. This is the area where most of the conflicts occur of course. Some people are happy with a casual approach and have no plans for becoming anything else. To give them the same advise on how they should keep their discus (BB tank, no tankmates, etc.) is not really helping them. They are very likely to go find their info somewhere else.

I just reread what I wrote so far and it sounds much preachier than I intended and I'm not telling people how to word their posts. I just think that we should make room for the casual discus keeper without trying to convert them. Simply will be a better place if they feel comfortable posting here and if we can help them obtain their goals. And who knows, maybe they will end up with their own fish room.

[BlueTurquoise]

I agree totally Ralph, I am glad you said it better than I could

Chong

[Jeffery_Doty]

Anand,

I understood Dennis' statements to be his own preference, because he said, "What "I" would call a perfect fish......." He did not give a blanket statement of, "What is a perfect fish." Just his opinion.

Jeff
Oregon

[lovdiscus]

Hi....Love the thread....great reading and interesting views..I just wanted to share my story on my first Discus..

It was a few years ago and I was pretty new at fish keeping....doing swords, neons, etc..
I would visit the LFS many times and I kept seeing this black fish in a very large tank with aggressive mates of other type cichlids....This fish hugged the back wall..I would ask about him and they would just say he was very difficult to maintain, but wanted 29.00 for him...??

He would not budge on the price either.
Well, I just could not get that little guy out of my head....I kept going back....and he hung in there.....still pitch black and sickly looking.....skinny...terrible shape.
I really had no idea what a Discus was supposed to look like then.
I just felt sorry for him.

I decided to find out how to care for him and I did. Then I went back and bought him for that price....stupid, huh?
But I just fell in love with him.
I brought him home and within a week...he was a bright beautiful blue, he became active and ate like a pig. I was doing something right.

Well, I still have Old Raphael...he never quite grew very big, and his blue is as blue as it will get (gray blue)....but he holds a special place in my heart.....He will never become a breeder (far too ugly for that....lol) but I will keep him til the end of his time.

But he got me hooked on Discus, thus began my learning more, buying quality Discus and breeding.
Just kinda wanted to say that even ugly ones can make someones life a bit brighter...

So, maybe there should be something said for the "misfits".
Maybe we could start a Class "M".....for misfit Discus...lol.

Donna

[fcdiscus]

Nice post Donna! :) Frank

[BlueTurquoise]

Agreed, A grade, B grade and M grade!

Chong

[lovdiscus]

Thanks Guys!

[jim_shedden]

Thats really what this is all about isn't it?................ ;D

jim

I dont know Jim??.....IS..that what its all about?? For some, yes... for some, no.
I can quite put my finger on it.....but something about this thread REALLY bugs the sh*t out of me.

Call me elitist...call me a di&#head....label me as you will. Simply stated, its getting harder and harder to state opinions and give advise on this board.

You need to be warm and fuzzy.....or someone gets pissed
You need to be politically correct.....or someone gets pissed
You need to have a PHD in some area's of the board...or someone gets pissed.
You need to Stand on your head and quadruple check most things you post......or someone gets pissed.

What does this add up to?? It adds up to ALOT of good people with ALOT of good advice/opinions that never get posted.
The REAL crime here isnt telling someone that thier discus looks more like a trout, and then failing to have a group hug afterwards. The REAL crime here is a silent one...its the "QUIET" keyboards.

Tony :-\

Tony,
I share your frustration, but then again, no one is sayng you can't express yourself as you just did. This board gives you the opportunity to verbally spar with others on your point of views and it gives others the opportunity to judge you on your stated opinions. What is so wrong with that? You don't have to be warm and fuzzy to be surgically effective, yet, not being too abrasive at the same time. I welcome any ideas you have that can make this better. peace.

Not to sound like a brown noser, I think Al , Ryan and the mods are doing an awesome job of keeping this togeather. You guys deserve a pat on the back now and then just to be reminded of a job well done, all solely for the benefit of the members. thanks.

[lovdiscus]

Sorry.....don't mean to offend you..but would you rather I speak or remain "silent" as you stated..

It just sounds to me like you are stirring up alot of hostility over nothing...but you are entitled to your opinion. Just as I am and everyone else.

But your tone is quite offensive.

Donna

Point made :-\

Ha ha, no one ever accused Tony of having a "quiet keyboard". But then he's an elitist di&#head, ha. That post and the response to it is a funny example of how different we all are. I didn't find it offensive in the least and found the tone hilarious. He didn't name anyone nor even hint at any individual person so no one should feel personally offended. His post was more of a generalization about the tone of this forum and political correctness in society. Of course he can post elsewhere if he finds the rules here hard to live with but I, for one, would prefer that he didn't. Just think of Tony (and me for that matter) as the "UGF & 2 inches of mulm" guys on the forum and give us our dignity... there are more then one way to post on a forum and while we try to stay within the boundaries of good taste, sometimes we stray.

Dave

Dave,
See, it worked, you are laughing and that's a very good start for the top of the morning . Your short and direct approach is also a welcome sight. peace. ;D

[jim_shedden]

Tony / Dave : You guys are great. It takes alot to offend me. Come to think of it I have a hard time ever remembering ever being offended by anyone. People are people. If everything was the same it would be boring wouldn't it? I still think that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. If his or her discus looks like a trout but he still likes it ..cool. Now if I turn around and put a pic of that trout on the net and ask for honest critiques then I have to be prepared for the outcome. You noticed you nearly never, ever see my fish on here......... ;D

jim

[brewmaster15]

Goodmorning everyone!

What a beautiful day, and what a great thread. Life is such an amazing thing. but Human life , now that a really amazing thing....

Just think about the billions of people , crowded onto one sadly over burdened planet. Billions of different personalities, experiences , and moralities living in absolute harmony...well maybe thats a stretch :).

Then break it down to the fraction of the worlds population that keeps discus, and further to the fraction represented on this board....and still we can maintain that diversity of opinion in utter harmony! ::) :) .

Personally I think utter harmony would be rather boring, as everyone would just be content with the way things were. I think disagreements and discussions are great. They are learning tools. But As much as I find bar brawls with the their no holds bar diplomacy entertaining, I prefer the more civil disputes, where facts are put forward, and thoughts are discussed objectively, and where you don't have to agree to learn, and don't have to attack someone personally because they see things differently. I really like the threads when someone learns something they didn't know.It helps me validate to myself why I am involved with Simply Discus.

I also think its worth remembering that Discus are just fish. A beautiful , captivating fish, and for 99% of the board... they are just a hobby to fill in the time between punching clocks, Tv shows , and family time. ..so enjoy the hobby... don't focus on what everyone else says and does... focus on what you feel is important....Too often I have seen breeders and hobbyist get so stressed out over the politics of this fish, that they forget that they used to enjoy just watching the perfectly round, or football shaped fish swimming in their tanks. This stress gets so intense, that friendships crumble, and wars get waged across cyber space over .... a fish.

Pull up a chair in front of the tank with your favorite fish, and forgot about what everyone says about the hobby. Just sit back and think about where you want to go in the hobby. ...more fish... make a website... make a forum... try to breed them... visit a breeder.... or pour another cup of coffee, and just sit there and enjoy the show.


Just some thoughts I had..some related to this post, some not. Sorry to digress. :)

-al

[Don_Lee]

Great post Al! I agree with what you have said, and we all need to be reminded of what brought us into the hobby. I truly enjoy the fish, and meeting people associated with discus.
Sometimes I think the intent of the board is misunderstood. IMO, the goal is not to create all agreement and patting each other on the back. As Al said, disagreements help us learn. It is how we disagree that is the key IMO. Being respectful and mindful of others feelings is paramount to me, because without these characteristics present communicaton is bound to fail at some level.

Don ;D

Jeff, My point exactly.... Dennis selects the fish that is pleasant to his eyes.... Don't we all?.... Except for visible defects the rest is up for grabs..... if someone liked bug eyes, who am I to say that is an ugly fish, ofcourse if that someone is a breeder/seller, I probably will refrain, getting an order shipped from them, cause I don't like small fish with big eyes... and question the breeders capability to relate to my liking.....

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

Anand
99% of us with Discus are hobiest, whether we breed them and sell a few or not.
All that is important is that the fish are healthy, and you are satified with them.
Dennis

[ronrca]

Wow! Now I wish that I would visit simply on a long weekend! For everyone else in Canada, here in Alberta we just had Family Day long weekend! I thought that I would just RUBB that in! ;D

Im quite sure that everyone knows my opinion about buying discus therefore will not be 'strongheaded' and state it again! LOL!

First, I must....yes, must thank the 'elitists' that are trying to achieve perfection. I also thank them for posting and stating their opinions/experiences. Absolutely! Maybe Im different but I love their critic even though sometimes I came across differently. Why you ask? If nobody would be looking for perfection, then there would be no one trying to 'get' better discus. Take myself as an example! I bought discus before I knew about simplydiscus. At that time, what did I know about discus except for what was in the lfs. Therefore, I believe that by having people trying to perfect the hobby and trying to help others along, they too will try and what happens is that more and more people strive for perfection! This then creates more of a market for 'prefect discus'...hopefully! Therefore, thank you!

Second, I agree with the opinions! Yes! All of them! Even Dave's about buying sick discus! I agree 100%. Let me tell you a story! Its a true story and Im the main character.

In the beginning, this is after I started with a 2G betta bowl and upgraded to a 30G within a month after the 2G, I would go into a lfs and drool over all the fish (I was like a little kid in a candy store with a dollar from my dad to spend). I can still remember so clearly a large tank with about 20 exotic discus supposedly imported from Germany. Boy, were they beautiful! No fish came even close, however they wanted $80 a discus! Right!!! Here Im trying out neons for a buck or two! This went on for about year and a half. During this time, I managed to save some funds to get a 90G operational. It came time to pick out fish. Discus did not even come into considertion because of the price. However, my tank more or less forced me into a decision because of the high temps (temp stayed around 82F without heaters). Even then, there would be no way to spend $80 on a discus (I did not know anything about grade A or B discus) and I need to buy at least 6. :o First of all because I could not afford it and second, my wife would not allow me to spend $300-$400 on fish only to have them die from inexperience. What to do? Someone mentioned that I look up breeders. I searched quite a while until I did find a breeder about an hour and a half away however, he normal does not sell privately. Since I knew the going prices for discus and since Ive never had discus, I strongly stated that I would to buy culls to learn from. He did not like that very much but I told him I can not afford the lfs discus and am a beginner so he did agree. And Im an so thankful he did otherwise I would not be into discus at all. Just fyi, I only have 1 of the 6 culls left. The others have died from various things like C02 poisoning then gill disease and who knows what. This cull is around 5-6", color is terrible but he is a survivor.

Therefore, because of my experiences of how I got into discus, my opinions/recommendations are not going to be the opposite unless I made some bad experiences which I did not. I am very happy with how I have learned, the most being from simply discus and the posts from the experienced people. Everyones dream would be to have 'perfect' discus however in my case, that is depend on my wife...I mean my pocket book. Sometimes I feel that the elitist forget that!

Jim

Im not dissagreeing with you....that wasnt really what the intent of my post was. In fact I fully agree with you! If someone wants to keep a discus that looks like a trout, and they're happy with it....awsome! Just dont be offended and get upset when I tell you, or try to explain to you that it LOOKS LIKE A TROUT! There are general guidelines as to what a discus should look like.That cant be disputed IMO.
Im not a very "elequent" speaker(typer) sometimes....I type with two fingers, I cant spell worth a krap, Im slow....it can be a painfull process ;D I dont wanna proof read and edit each post 4 times, so sometimes ya get what ya get. I dont ever mean to offend anyone(lovdiscus) intentionally....trust me....If I wanted to offend, your jaw would hit the table while you were reading ;)
Go elsewhere?? Never....I may have my issues with this place, but without question, its the best on the net.

Tony
oh,and Dave....Ive been called alot of things before....but Mulm? ;D Thats a new one! ;D

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,


I dont ever mean to offend anyone(lovdiscus) intentionally....trust me....If I wanted to offend, your jaw would hit the table while you were reading Now thats a fact! ;)


I'd love it if we could be the perfect website to everyone all the time... but take it from someone in the "know" here.... its absolutely impossible... I try and fail at it all the time...... but I'll gladly settle for this..... :)

Go elsewhere?? Never....I may have my issues with this place, but without question, its the best on the net.



hey , but on a more serious note. ::)... If a discus looks like a trout...does it also taste like a trout? and if I decide to breed it, can I raise in cool water ...say 70 degree...cause that would definetly be a great thing. Then you back cross it to a perfectly round discus, and maybe get a small percentage of fry that are round cold water fish that taste good... and in a few decades maybe solve the worlds hunger probelms , and give everyone a hobby... Ah the possibilities are endless in what you can breed this days with a little imagination and know..how! ;) ... I mean think about, they put winter flounder genes into tomatoes now, so the tomatoes don't get frost bitten! Corn that makes its own bug poisons by put genes from BT bacteria in. vaccines produced by the foods are here as well..... You'd think with all this know how... every discus discus would be exactly alike and perfect by now.. then we would all have the bestest most perfect fish....and need new hobbiest ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

man, you just can't win!

take care,
al

[lovdiscus]

Fist off..my sincerest apologies for thinking you were giving me a hard time.....I think it was the "warm and fuzzy" part that just got to me...lol.

I am really not a warm and fuzzy person most of the time...I wish I were more so. But reality and daily struggles make that hard to accomplish. I do agree with you that there are definately "'Discus qualities" that should be maintained.
And yes....there are "trout" discus also.
I know..as I have a few of each.

As a breeder, I would never breed the "less than perfect" Discus. And I believe no one should. But keeping them for your own pleasure is fine.

I think we are on the same page and just got off to a bad start.

(shyly peeking around corner; "may we begin anew?")

Donna

Donna...
No need for apologies...and no hard feelings here. ;D
"begin anew"? Gladly ;D

Tony

[fishfarm]

Wow! Thanks for the thread! I had not visited in a while because every time I posted something, someone had something negative to say. I've learned not to post pictures because someone will find a fault. I have nice healthy fish, Some even show winners, but most are not, but I still love them all the same. Glad to see other people with he same thoughts, I may visit more often again. :) :) :) Ken

[ChloroPhil]

Ok, I finally broke down and am getting out of my cozy little corner of the boards and ran smack dab into the middle of this thread.

After reading most of the replies I'd like to add something from the Point of View of someone who works at an aquarium (only) store. The ethical responsibility lies not only, or even mostly, on the shoulders of the breeders. Rather, it *should* rest on the shoulders of those selling the fish.

Sure, most of us get into discus on fish of a lower quality and then work our way "up" from there. Is that wrong? Hell no! What's wrong is that the people selling us the fish are charging $80.00 apiece for a fish that's not worth half that (or even bought wholesale at anywhere clost to that price).

The place I work has a trio of very nice royal blue turqs for $130.00 apiece. Are they worth it? One is.

Will we continue to try to sell those other two at the same price? Yes.

Is that wrong. YES!!!!!

Why? Because people don't know any better. You may as well just steal the money from their wallets and save both parties the trouble. As an industry (and being a consumer in a supply and demand economy, you _are_ part of the industry) we need to greatly improve the ethics of our practices. As consumers you should demand lower prices for inferior fish and fair prices for quality stock. If you don't buy we can't sell.

As whole body stores should ethically categorize and price the fish according to quality rather than by species eg "That's a discus they're worth your right arm even if it is stunted and not eating". When I see people walking out of the store carrying a bag with poor quality fish that have been passed off as something they're not I wonder when the fish are going to die and if we just lost another hobbiest to greed.

Would stores make more money selling "b" or "c" quality fish for less? I think so.

Most people I talk to who are interested in discus generally move on to other fish saying "I'm not going to pay that much for a fish" or something along those lines. That's money lost right there. Now, if we sold them for $30.00 rather than $80.00 we're not making as great a margin per fish, but we're actually going to sell the fish rather than watch them eventually wither and die in our for sale tanks. That's money made and we've got discus in the hands of the populace at a price they feel is reasonable.

Is it wrong to sell lesser quality fish? No, if people like them, then by all means let them keep their ugly duckling pet. I happen to love my imperfect dog very much. Even though he's not up to AKC show standard for the breed he's a wonderful pet.

Should breeders allow truly inferior fish to leave their tanks? No.

While there's nothing wrong with selling a healthy fish that may not be totally round or have poor coloring we shouldn't allow fish with developmental and/or health defects into the general populace. Not only does it tarnish the reputation of a breeder (and hopefully his or her conscience) it also corrupts the hobby as a whole.

Will this cause breeders to lose money? It may, but it shouldn't. Take Cary S. as an example. I talked to a guy in my store the other week (in Charlotte, NC) and he knew of Cary outside of internet circles and that his fish were of top quality.

Can Cary charge higher prices for his fish and expect it to be met? Most likely. Why? Because he's known for having a quality product, kind of like the Cadillac of Discus. He may not sell as many fish, but his margin of profit and potential of customer return has the potential to be greater than it would be by selling many inferior fish to a customer once only.

How many people do you know who have given up on fish after losing a tank and never started back up again because they didn't want to pay the money again? How many of us were hooked from the start because we lucked out and got a fish hardy enough to survive in our aquariums, or bought fish cheap enough to justify going back and getting more until they didn't die? How much money have your LFSs made off your "addiction" because of that? I know that when I'm successful at something I tend to try and recreate that success on a larger scale...my LFSs have made a killing off me over the years because of some initial successes and increased personal interest.

I went off target there in my ramblings, but I hope my point was made understandably. The supplier/seller should be at the forefront of ethical behavior, followed only slightly by the breeder and the consumer should demand ethical business practices from both the supplier and breeder.

Regards,
Phil Edwards
Charlotte, NC

PS: Even a crappy, stunted fish looks better in a PLANTED AQUARIUM! ;D

[lovdiscus]

Hi Phil.....Ok....I agree with your philosophy....however; I just have to add my 2 cents (for what its worth).
Unfortunately.....most pet shops/LFS's do not know the difference between a quality fish/non quality fish.
They get the fish at wholesale and then tack of their percentage and that's that.
I know this because I am a manager at a LFS now. I just became in charge of all 70+ tanks.
That is how they did it for years.
Most LFS employees have no idea what fish is what, much less the quality of a species.
Heck, my boss doesnt even know how to take care of the tanks.....he just runs the store.
All his fish were dying, so he asked me to take over the fish side of the business.
He knew I had my own successful small hatchery.
So, any way.....I am rambling now,,,,sorry...

I agree with you...but I dont know the solution.
I personally will not sell people poor quality fish for full price.
I put them "On sale". Some I wont even sell.....for example...I have a Jack Dempsey (with a great temperment) , he is very healthy.....but doesnt have a tail...just born that way. He stays in the store.

Unfortunatly, it circles back to the wholesaler.....that is where we get our fish. And they get them from breeders....so it is back to the breeder's responsibility.

But I know alot of breeders that just bring in all their runts/deformities to the wholesalers....the wholesalers just take them all. I have seen all sides of this.

So......who in this big circle can stop this? I dont know.
I know I am trying to do the best I can.....for both the hobbyist and the business....and the fish.

My biggest gripe is that most people who buy fish don't have a clue on how to care for them. They don't research it at all. You wouldnt believe some of the questions I get.
They expect to bring a fish home and then hurry up and set up a tank.

One lady actually wondered why her betta died....she never changed the water and thought it ate the plant and she never fed it????????

So I also put the blame on the consumer. People need to research more and get more information. I try to tell my customers how to care for the fish they get.

I could go on and on.....sorry.
Basically like I said......I agree with you but it is a very much larger picture.

Donna

[ChloroPhil]

I deal with the same thing every day...:( I think education of the staff is the key. Teach them what a quality fish looks like (of all species) and proper fish behavior and it'll do wonders. I've started doing it at the store I'm at and it's helped the younger folks a great deal. Not to mention now the customers are getting valid information and their fish are going to do better in the long run.

[ronrca]

Thats what it is people! I would not necessary place blame solely on one particular part of a circle or another. It is the whole circle that sucks! What you need is to get the good breeders/wholesalers and lfs together to create the circle. If one part of the cycle sucks, it will effect the outcome. If the lfs would only buy from good wholesalers, the bad ones will be phased out (same goes for breeders and lfs).

If the breeders would sell better fish, if the wholesaler would offer better fish, if the lfs would only buy from good wholesalers, if the consumer would actually research the product.

However, isnt that the same issue which pretty much everything that is available to purchase. Isnt it the intent that Companies/stores are out to make money! Some want to make lots of money, some to offer a good product. Whatever the motive, it is

Buyer beware The consumer must be educated and have researched the product (easy now with the internet). Pretty much the bottom line! ;) It is the end user, the consumer, that actually decides the market. Like Phil says, he tries to educate his customers! Thats the way to go! IME, I go back to the lfs that gives me honest, correct info even if I dont like it sometimes (therefore I do not shop at Petsmart!). If the lfs would start to educate their customers, the consumer will become educated and know what and what not to buy. What happens is that the 'bad' lfs start going under or improving which will effect the wholesale stage, then the breeder. IMO!