Natural habitat breeding conditions

[Gnome]

Ok guys I'm new w/ discus, I have a questions about their natural habitat, I've been trying to breed discus recently and have been reading all those post at the breeding discus section and the water works section also, ok here's the question,
from what I've read, I know that discus live and need softwater, especially when spawning ( reason: to get a better eggs hatch rate ), and also I've read that when the eggs have been hatch you'll need adequate conductivity ie. 200ms (around 6 dgh) or greater, so I wonder how they can get adequate conductivity to grow their young? in their natural habitat, which is has very softwater around 0-3 gh (0-3dgh= 0-99ms). Or do they move to other area which has more conductivity? but where? or the young grows slower in their natural habitat?
help me clear this thing up.
Thanks.
Gnome.

[Steve_Warner]

Hi all,
Gnome, you've asked some excellent questions. I would love to research thoughts like this by going to the Amazon and doing field research experiments. Unfortunately, I don't think it would be possible to track a discus in the wild with young fry very long. I would venture to guess that the fry would get their required minerals from their nutritional intakes. WHAT that exactly is I do not know, but would guess a combo of animals, plants and seeds. It is also very possible that they move into areas containing a higher mineral content as well. Good post!

Steve

[Gnome]

Hi all,
Gnome, you've asked some excellent questions. I would love to research thoughts like this by going to the Amazon and doing field research experiments. Unfortunately, I don't think it would be possible to track a discus in the wild with young fry very long. I would venture to guess that the fry would get their required minerals from their nutritional intakes. WHAT that exactly is I do not know, but would guess a combo of animals, plants and seeds. It is also very possible that they move into areas containing a higher mineral content as well. Good post!

Steve


Steve, That's what I was thinking about, perhaps they move somewhere else to areas which has more conductivity, but I read in the discus book that amazon rivers have been classified into three types: the blackwater (only contains 10ms), the clear water (contains 15ms), and the white water (contains 25-60ms). so I don't think they will get the right conductivity in these rivers also eventhough they get theirs minerals from animals and plants or seed, you must also remember these source food don't have much minerals since they live in very softwater, but my guess is probably in amazon river they can find abundant sources of food, unlike tank-bred, they only get food when we feed them only, so I guess they eat like a big pig at amazon river. or is there any factor besides this?
Gnome.

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

Gnome
I don't think the harder water ( higher conductivity ) is nessecary for raising fry.
What I think is that over the years people have found that fry grow quicker with harder water.
What I would have to ask is this faster growth better for the fish ?
Dennis

Its actually a semi-theory of mine(maybe just thoughts) as to why most of the wild discus we see on the market have such huge eyes. Very slow growth due to mineral deficient water and about 1/50th of the food they recieve in a fishtank.

Just some thoughts...

Tony

[Gnome]

Thanks guys 8)
TONY_S
you just give us an example or proff that they do grow slower in natural habitat and also that tank-bred discus is more healthier than wild caught discus and also proof that my guess is wrong :P ( well it is also depends on the breeders though).

so Dan, do you think it is better to have accelerated growth? I think yes, since it is nice to see discus which is chubby (not overloaded) and healthy also they can multiply faster which is a very crucial factor for experiment's specimen and more money for the breeders don't you think.
Gnome.

[Steve_Warner]

Hi all,
Interesting topic and good thoughts here too. It is probably also true that the amount of nutrients a discus gets from it's food/environment has reached equilibrium with nature. What EXACT levels of nutrients and in what ratios a discus needs to survive and be healthy nobody knows, do they? I would venture to guess that Mother Nature has this all taken care of and we don't know squat! Tony, good thoughts on the subject of the eye. I also have a theory........A large eye could also mean an adaptation to a low-light level environment(blackwater), such as a deep sea creature, and not just abnormal development. Maybe our tank-raised discus are abnormal developers with an over-developed eye size! Just some thoughts. Excellent thread!

Steve

Lets see If I can confuse the situation with my muddied thoughts. I have no proof or first hand experience breeding wilds.....so Im gonna just "think out loud".

My reasoning behind this theory is this. F1 fry from a wild x wild that grow at a proper/acceptable rate as compared to domestic discus, have a "normal"(according to us) sized eye judging from the pictures Ive seen.
This would lead me to believe that the accelerated growth of the discus in Ideal settings keeps the body in proper proportion(again according to "US") with the eye, wich as we know never stops developing and growing regardless of nutrition.
This also leads me to believe that true wilds ARE capable of
this accelerated growth in the wild, provided they get the proper minerals and nutrition.
Good thoughts Steve....Id never thought of the "night eye" part of it.....if that were so though, I would think that the large eye would be a genetic thing that would have to be bred out of the discus as ALL the fry would have huge eyes.
Again....Im speculating....but I dont believe this to be the case. I realise that the "breeder" of said fish(in a breeding program) would be culling fish WITH a large eye....but I dont think this would be any higher of a percentage as compared to domestics...but again, thats speculation on my part, having never personally bred wild x wild.

It would be interesting to hear from someone who has bred wilds together, and can comment on the "F1" part of it.

Tony

[RAWesolowski]

It is my understanding that the river habitats are not spawning areas. Spawning takes place during the rainy season when the rivers swell and inundate surrounding jungle. Spawning takes place in the flooded jungle much like many of our native species spawn in flooded low land areas.

I would imagine that the conductivity of the water in the breeding areas would rise as the rains subside and the detritus in the water add nutrients and trace elements. The fry would follow receding flood waters back to the river habitats and lower levels of conductivity.