Need help

[NickK]

I am about to split my discus into a second tank, but I noticed some strange behavior in a few discus. First, most of the discus are breathing rapidly. They look fine, and they are all eating great. However, after eating, most are breathing faster than normal and sitting still. 2 or 3 of them are twitching occasionally and try to scrape their sides on the bottom of the tank every now and then. All of my discus are in 1 tank right now. What does this sound like? And how should I proceed? If I need salt or a med, should I add it to the tank? Will it affect the bio-filtration?

Thanks for your help
Nick

[Kagan]

Hi,

First of all, please give the details of the tank and the parameters. But it sounds like the biological filtering may be insufficient if the breathing rate increases too much.

Kagan

[NickK]

Here are the params:

55 gal tank
24 - juvies (2-3" discus) I know, but keep reading.
Emperor 400 bio-wheel
Ehiem 2227 wet-dry (filled with Ehfisubstrat)
Hydro 4 sponge

86 F
7.2 pH

0 Ammonia
0 - maybe .10 Nitrite (there is a very tiny amount on the test kit, but nowhere near the first mark of .25mg.)
15-20 nitrate (my city water already has ~10 nitrates)

The fish have been doing very well since I received them about a month ago. Some have grown faster than others, and I am about to split them into a 75 tonight. I have another 75 that will be cycled within the next couple weeks. All 24 discus will then be grown out in either the 55 or one of the two 75s. This will equate to 8.5 gal per fish.

I feed beefheart, colorbits, frozen mysis, and ONF1 flakes.

I do 60% w/c every 48 hours.

I noticed one or two "shimmys" earlier today, and one scratch against the bottom of the tank. But this was the first time I ever noticed it. The other night I freaked them out by dropping the water level to 1", in order to put white paper under the tank. Initially, one fish was stressed more than the others, and was breathing heavy.

Do you think they just need more space?

Any advice?

Nick,
It seems to me the water parameters may be changing too much with your water changing schedule. I think doing 30% each day would be much better on the fish. Many people will jump to the conclusion that its gill flukes or something of the like, but there is a great likelihood that it's something much simpler. I'd go ahead and add 1 Tablespoon non-iodized salt per 10 gallons of water and adjust your water change schedule. If you can't change every day, at least knock the percentage you change down so the water chemistry change they experience isn't so great.

[Kagan]

I also agree that it would be early to decide on gill flukes. First you have to observe the gills :). Inaddition, is this fast breathing after the beefheart feeding or is it after all the feeding types? Heavy feeding might result as temporary heavy breathing. HITH. Also, the fish load is heavy for the tank.

Kagan

[NickK]

Is 30% per day better than 60% every other day? My rationale for EOD is that I want to establish a good bio-load capability. (I've read that beneficial bacteria only exist to the current demand, and sometimes I travel for business) However, if 30% per day is better, than I will switch my schedule. Also, this just happened this week, and I've been on the WC schedule for 3+ weeks. A few of the discus starting twitching their fins today, and most of the fish seem to be breathing faster than normal.

What do I look for when I inspect the gills? Could the white bottom I installed have brought this on? The white paper was the only variable this week.

Nick

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Nick,
Split your discus into the two tanks. I'm guessing you have way too many discus in your tank to be doing every other day 60% WC. Probably daily 60% would be more like it. Do the split, add some salt and lets see how they are in a couple of days.

If you only had a pair or a few small adults in a 55 you could get away with every other day WC. You can't stock heavy AND do every other day WC. If you're going to break the stocking rules you HAVE to do BIG DAILY water changes.

[slicksta]

Nick....

How is your oxygen level....how are you introducing O.....are the fish at the top of the tank allot....not familiar with the Ehiem.....but usually wet/dry are excellent for adding O to your tank. I would increase my O level first thing when you see heavy breathing....this is accomplished by breaking the water surface and/or agitation at the surface

When looking for gill fluke....fish tend to breathe out of one gill or the other or not in unison....but I think it maybe to soon to jump to that conclusion. Keep an eye on the scrapping....fish will do this normally, but not frequently.....

Smaller water changes, more often are better because it keeps the water chemistry more stable if there is any difference between the new water and the water in the tank.

I'm not a big fan of beefheart as it fouls water...IMHO ....loose it....but I am the minority..I would like to add....that over feeding makes them act funny...how often and how much do you feed....

Discus can be stressed easily....with the white paper and the lowering of the water the other night.....they just might be a little spooked....do your water changes....but keep tank disturbance to a minimal for a couple of days....keep an eye on themand keep us updated.....

Nick,
I agree with Carrol, 60% daily would be ideal. If you let all the water build up waste and such for two days, then replace 2/3 of the tank with new water, the fish undergo a large change in the water chemistry. I was just saying that if you only have the capacity to change 60% total over two days, splitting it up to 30% each day would be best so the fish don't go through so much stress. I think 50-60% every day would be the best for your fish. Your bio-filter will build up doing those changes.

24 discus 2.5" inches in size in a 55 gallon tank is not what's causing your problem. However I do agree bigger is better... The white bottom is not a problem either.

Fish don't just scratch because they have gill flukes. They will do it when they have protozoan and bacterial infections too. I would increase the heat to 89-90 and add 5 tablespoons of salt per ten gallons. Keep up with the water changes 50% every day and wait and see.

Mike

[flogger426]

mikes right!

salt (non-iodized) works wonders - throw an airstone in too!

i would also cut back on feeding - feed lightly - sometimes fish scratch and dart because your overfeeding and the bacteria count in the water is rising.

make sure all water changes (in my opinion 25% is fine!) are done at the same temp as the tank water - as well as ph and don't forget to dechlorinate if its coming out of the tap.

most of all don't freak out and start dumping all kinds of medications and **** in the tank. and i would wait before moving any fish!


good luck - keep us posted

[NickK]

Oops! I just moved 12 of them (the largest ones) into the 75. In reply to the above questions, here are some answers that will hopefully shed some light on the subject.

None of the fish are near the top. I have airstones and airstone driven sponge filters. Plus, the wet/dry is adding oxygen.

All of the gills look fine. No clamped gills, or single working gills. A couple of the fish are just breathing faster than normal.

If overfeeding is bad, then this may be the cause. I feed 4-5 times per day. I only feed beefheart once, and supplement with colorbits, flakes, and frozen mysis. The prefilters are very very dirty when I do the waterchanges. However, I always take them out and wash them in old tank water.

All of the water that goes into the tank has been de-chlorinated (aqua-safe, or similar product), heated to same temp, and aged for 24 hours with airstones.

Can I use the Instant Ocean brand salt left over from my reef tank? Will salt dosing hurt the bio-filtration? How long should I use it?

My pH used to be 7.6, but it was 7.2 when I tested it today. I don't normally test pH, and it had dropped, but I don't know when. Can city water fluctuate in pH? We have had all of these record snow days, and I wonder if the road salts can affect it. Could this drop upset the fish?

Lots of info, but hopefully you can make sense of it.

Nick

PS - What causes a discus to watch the bottom of the tank, and keep its head down?

[flogger426]

nick,

i would start adjusting my ph downward to about 6.5 and try leaving it there. 7.6 is too high in my opinion and besides ammonia becomes toxic above 7.

some people will tell you that they raise all their fish in 7.5 or 7.6 ph - but why? it makes no sense to me.

lots of times if the fishes bellys are bulging - they will pump heavily. like you do when your looking down at a big steak.

i like watching my fish eat, so i feed 4 or 5 times a day sometimes more, but small feedings - and anything left over after 10 minutes i syphon out.

i have alot of time on my hands huh - lol

good luck!

[slicksta]

nick
the head down is also caused by over-feeding....bloating.

me....I would cut back on the feedings to twice a day....
I only feed one to two times a day.

Sounds like you have plenty of O....
I would wash the prefilters in tap and clean them well....you don't need them to be bio also.....you have plenty of that with the wet/dry and the biowheel.

don't no about the reef salt....I use non iodine table salt
City pH can fluctuate....but from your #'s....that's not bad at all.....
and I add....I would not mess with adjusting pH...not worth the problems you can cause...water chem can be tricky

[NickK]

I don't want to start messing with my pH. Too much hassle, and I'm sure it would do more harm than good.

I was feeding 4-5 times in order to achieve good growth. Will 2 feedings still acheive maximum growth?

What can I do about the 15-20 ppm Nitrates? Is this a dangerous level? I can't get it to drop any further. The farms in Ohio cause my tap water to contain about 10 ppm. I have some plants rooted in the Emperor filter, but I don't know if they are doing anything.

Finally, will the salt hurt my bio-filtration or alter pH?

Nick

[slicksta]

good thinking on the pH....
salt will not harm your bio....not sure about the pH.....that might have to do with the other elements in your water chem.....it does not affect my pH....maybe others can help with that....most use it so I would not worry

the only way I know to remove nitrate is WC or live plants....
I don't think your levels are that bad...and .they will drop with the splitting of the group and the smaller less frequent feedings....nitrate is after all, a result of your waste load...

[NickK]

One more thing is still bugging me....those darn white thread worms in my water. I've read they are harmless and are a result of overfeeding, but they appeared when I was doing the fishless cycle...before I ever fed or owned a fish! They are everywhere. Small, skinny, white pieces of string (one end is a little wider than the other), that wiggle around in the water column. They are not attached to the glass, as some have said.

I cleaned out my emperor tonight, and will keep on chaning water. Is everyone certain these things are harmless? I have read many opinions, but have not seen a definitive answer as to what they are.

I wonder if the salt will eradicate them?

Nick

[RandalB]

Nick,
RO/DI or plant action are the best bets for getting rid of that 10 PPM nitrate in your tap water. 15-20 is not that bad, mine don't start getting twitchy until 25+

RandalB

[slicksta]

White worms.....Never had to deal with them...so you will have to wait for some others to input....
I think over feeding is a major problem with fish health.....I can't tell you for certain with discus....but the Africans I keep are huge on one feeding per day...and I have had them for years.....discus are cichlids too.....so I'm following the " hungry fish, is a healthy fish' as my friend on this board put it....
less food will help with your nitrates....
don't know why everyone wants huge fish and over night.....we don't do this with any other pet.

[NickK]

Slicksta,

That makes sense. But then again, my Bengal cat wouldn't mind if I tried it with him! He loves eating. :D

Nick

[slicksta]

Nick....
from everything I have read in your posts from your first.....you are doing it as well as it can be done......slow it down a bit and enjoy them.....
they will grow up and be off to college soon enough...
good luck.....

John

[flogger426]

slicksta,

excellent information!

[NickK]

Good info. I'm just trying to be an educated and responsible parent! It would break my heart to hurt/kill such a beautiful fish due to a lack of knowledge (especially since I have such a great place to learn). I kept a few discus back in college (maybe 5-6 years ago), but Simply is such a blessing to this hobby.

Nick

[slicksta]

Nick
............ :thumbsup:

[NickK]

OK, they made it through the night. Some of them are still breathing heavily. I did notice that a couple of them are hiding in the back (which NONE of them did last week). It appears that these fish are only breathing out of 1 gill, and the other gill looks shut (is not moving). Any insight?

Nick

PS - I still have not added the salt. Please let me know if Instant Ocean salt is OK, and how much I should dose. Do you replace it after water changes? How long do you cycle it?

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Nick, add the salt - Instant Ocean is fine. If you use 2 tablespoons per 10 gallons and remove 20 gallons of water, add 4 tablespoons of salt with the 20 gallons of new water. Use the salt for a week or so.

Nick, the overfeeding has nothing to do with the frequency. The frequency: 4-5 times daily is fine! At twice daily, you will have miniature discus. The amount of the feeding each time is where the problemscan occur. The tank walls will slime up along with the filters...causing a bacterial infection rather quickly. your temperature should be 86-88 which will speed up the meatabolic rate andthe fish will be ravenous!

The white worms ( Plenaria ) should not be looked at as harmless. That is a definite indication of overfeeding. They are the harbingers of bacterial problems and an imbalance in the tank.

Flogger, I am confused with your post. You say Mike is right...then you change practically everything he says. Looking over the post here, I see at least four different attitudes and am not at all surprised if Nick is the confussed one.

Slicksta, one to two feedings daily?? Really?? I think Nicks intervals are just right for small fish. The amounts are too much. ;D Joe

[Carol_Roberts]

. . . . Mike Wells advised you to go with 5 tablespoons salt per 10 gallons and raise temp. I'd try that.

Joe is correct. Several small feedings per day are better than two large ones for juvenile discus. I would feed your guys 4 or 5 times per day when they are healthy. If they aren't eating right now just offer little bits and don't let the food sit in the tank.

[NickK]

Carol,
They are eating like mad wolves! I noticed that the new tank has .25 mg/L nitrites, which is what I expected during the first day of a newly cycled tank. I wonder if this is the problem. They are swimming normal, and all have their bright colors. A few of them just seem timid, breath a little faster than normal, and had 1 clamped gill. They were fine when I added food.

????
Nick

[Carol_Roberts]

Salt will help with the nitrItes too. Add the salt. Bright colors are a sign of high nitrites.

I'm glad they are eating now - they must be feeling better.

[slicksta]

Nick
looks like there coming around....I believe in a few days....all will be back to normal....good lookin'out....

Joe ....my fish are growing at that rate....maybe not as fast as absolutely possible....but they are healthy and very active. What's the obsession with big fish anyway....you trying to compensate for something.....

I know......cheap shot... :P

sorry ;)

I found that no ONE knows it all...... and food seems to be the culprit here...as in many cases
This is what works for me.....I never tell anyone to do as I do....I always express this in my posts

Slicksta, Your comment is uncalled for and unappreciated... speak for yourself! I did not solicit your unfunny remark!!! It is not a cheap shot....just ....tasteless! Joe ;)

Made me laugh.....http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/a0/tease.gif

[larry lob]

NOW NOW,

Come on men shake hands. so we all have differing oppinions and yes comments are made in the heat of the moment that are unapropriate or uncalled for but we here all have something special between us, We share the passion of discus, we are not strangers in the world only to the rest of the world, lets do what we do best here....... discuss, dispute and resolve.

Disheartened Larry

[slicksta]

Nick....
...how are they doin' today.

C'mon Joe....
not meant to insult you...just havin' fun....
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;
I truly believe that over-feeding and an obsession with large fish is a problem in this hobby..........
Hey.... and besides Tony laughed....... and all I need is an audience of one.

[NickK]

Well, I did use salt last night in one tank. When I poured the salt in (premixed) they starting eating the unmixed salt! These guys will eat anything. As of last night, one of my biggest fish was still breathing very hard through 1 gill, while the other gill was not moving. Today they seemed to eat breakfast (colorbits) fine. I didn't turn on their lights, so I couldn't get a good look at the troubled discus. What should my game plan be for this week?

[slicksta]

Nick
When I add salt I premix it in hot tap to get it disolved...
on the clamped fin...I'm not your man.....you should get some input today from others...

John