Discus Pioneers Please!

[Lil_Beth]

Hello Everybody,
I bet you think that Lil_Beth looks familiar. Well, it should because I am Beth_A's daughter.
I'm writing this post because I have a little problem on my hands. I have to complete a senior project for school. The topic I choose is DISCUS :-\
A huge part of my project is a very extensive research paper. I started looking up info. on the web and I can't seem to find anything on the original collectors (pioneers). If any of you might know a few good reliable sites I could go to that would be great.

I would greatly appreciate any info. that you could post for me.

Thank You,
Courtney a.k.a. Lil_Beth

[Don_Lee]

Hi Courtney!

Welcome to the site! There is a thorough discussion of the origins of discus collecting in the book "Adventures With Discus" by Hans Maryland. I would think if there are any references on the net, the place to start to look would be www.discus.pagina.nl. If you do not find anything, let me know and I will reference the book when I get home as I am at work now.
Aren't papers great? I wrote a ton of those, and hope I never have to again! lol

Don ;D

[Lynn]

Hi Courtney,

You mean your Mom doesn't have all the answers??? ;DLOL

Here are some names for you to search on:

Johan Heckel(not sure if I got his first name right)
Willi Schwartz
Harald Schultz
Dr. Herbert Axelrod
Dr. Eduard Schmidt-Focke
Jack Wattley

Good Luck!
HTH!
;DLynn

[flogger426]

hey big_beth,

you look awfully young to be having a daughter getting ready for college! :)

flogger

[BLUEKNIGHT]

Hey Courtney, You can contact oliver from below water he can probably give you info on them too even though he is not a pioneer.

[Lynn]

Courtney,

Here's another: Jacques Pellegrin

You may have to do some digging in musty old ichthyology journals for info on Pellegrin and Johann Heckel...they published a LONG time ago...late 1800's, early 1900's..it was just a taxonomical classification of the species. The actual keeping of discus probably started in the 1960's.

HTH,
;DLynn

[Discus_Hans]

Courtney, here we go:
1840 Symphysodon discus Heckel (real Discus)
1903 Symphysodon aequifasciata aequifasciata Pellegrin (green Discus)
1960 Symphysodon aequifasciata axelrodi Schultz (brown Discus)
1960 Symphysodon aequifasciata haraldi Schultz (blue Discus)

An other name is Dr. Rolf Geisler he made many trips to the Amazone.

I will try to scan some more info for you tomorow, Hans.

[April]

Welcome courtney aka lil_Beth. now why on earth would you choose discus? lol.
now...thats the last thing on earth my daughter who is in grade 12 would choose to write a paper on. she;d like them to fall off the face of this earth!!
maybe we can trade daughters Beth?
good luck.and we;d really like to read your paper when its done. maybe we can put it in the library?
Hans..i knew you were more than just a pretty face..lol. .i have alot to learn also....so dig out more for us.

[jklnbrg]

There is a thorough discussion of the origins of discus collecting in the book "Adventures With Discus" by Hans Maryland. Don ;D


Actually it's Hans Mayland. I have the book in German if you want to read it. It's very good :)

John

[Don_Lee]

Woops, you are right John. :-[ I have read the book and really enjoyed it.

Don ;D

[flogger426]

beth -

here is some info on the early days of the discus.

when the discus first hit the aquarium market around 1933 it was called the pompadour fish.

the fish was described in 1840 by dr. heckel.

the very first discus were imported to major aquarium centers such as new york, munich, london etc. from the rio negro river system in south america.

the very first wave of discus sold for about 50.00 each - but when the fever hit the price quickly jumped to 650.00+ per pair. that was alot of money in the 1930's.

the first successful spawning was by W.T. Dodd in 1949. he had great success with this pair, raising upwards of 200 fry bi weekly. a stroke of luck? yes!

his pair soon died and he could never repeat his success with other fish.

in the early days many hobbiests would remove the eggs - due to egg eating parents and try to raise the fish like angel fish, but all the babies would soon die.

it took along time before anyone realized that the fry actually picked off microscopic food (infusoria) from the slime coats of the parents.

hopes this helps a bit.


flogger (john)

[Lil_Beth]

Thanks Guys!
That is the kind of info. I was looking for. Everytime I would try to find this info., the computer would spit out stuff about discus throwing. I was definitely not looking for that.
Any more info. found would be much appreciated. ;D

I think it's funny how I've chaged in the past few months.
When my mom first got discus, I would do everything I possibly could to get away from them. I think that the thought that went through my head was "Can't beat em, Join em!"

Oh Yea, Flogger, Just think not only is my mom the mother of a senior in high school, she is also expecting her very first grand baby in July. She is still in her child bearing years and yet, she will be a GRANDMA very soon. :)

Thank You everyone for the info.
Keep it coming!

Courtney

[flogger426]

congrats!


flogger

courtney aka lil Beth, The trick when doing a search on the fish instead of the metal frisbie is to go to discus fish. Joe ;)

[flogger426]

courtney,

are you the expecting mom? or is it an older sister or brother?


flogger

[Lil_Beth]

Hey Flogger,
I'm the expecting mom. It's just me and my little sister(11).
I thought I was grown, but look where it got me. I guess everyday is a whole new lesson. I tell ya, "When it rains it pours!" The craziest thing is, when I thougt I was all alone in this world, I still had mom!

Courtney

[brewmaster15]

Hi Courtney,
Some lessons come hard learned , but are the ones we will learn the most from.


when I thougt I was all alone in this world, I still had mom!
Never forget that. As you get older people will move thru your life, but if you can count on anyone, its usuallly a family member!
. Your one lucky person to have a Mom like Beth!... but you knew that already. :)

Congratulations!

-al

Ps...theres is a good amount of info on johan heckel in "Adventures With Discus" by Hans Mayland.

[flogger426]

courtney congrats!

your in a special class of people! 23 years ago my wife and i had our first baby. we were both 17 years old.

our daughter nicole will be graduating from penn state in may. amazing! - the time really flys! love that baby and continue to follow your dreams - your a special person!!

flogger

That's My Girl ;D

[Francisco_Borrero]

Hi Courtney (Lil-Beth):

I believe this may be handy for your research paper. I just copy/pasted it from the source, so please make sure to reference it (cite it) appropriatedly if you use it. Unfortunately is in Spanish, but it is fairly easy to follow. If you need any help translatting specific portions, I would be more than happy to help. Be aware that there are misspellings of various pioneer's last names here and there and other boo-boos, but it is good for the most part. Beth-A can help you sort those out.
HTH & cheers, Francisco.

_____________________________________________
(the source: El Acuarista: Web Latinoamericana de Acuariofilia y Disciplinas Afines,
http://elacuarista.com/secciones/discus1_index.htm

The screen will show you a list of topics (in Spanish). Hit the second at about the center of the screen, "Historial". That's it. ]


1840- Heckel define el género Symphysodon.

1862- Gunther (Cat. Peces, Museo Británico, 4:316 - 1862), describe el Género.

1921- El primer ejemplar vivo es aclimatado en Europa por Eimecke (Hamburgo).

1928- Algunos pocos ejemplares fueron colectados por el colector Praetorius en la cuenca del Río Amazonas. Trasladados a la casa Scholze&Pötzchke (Berlín) no se aclimataron y murieron.

1930- El Acuario Hanburg y el criador Haertel contratan un embarque anual regular de cualquier tipo de peces con interés para acuarios. Entre ellos arriban ejemplares de Symphysodon. Estos "discus" son reservados para los más renombrados aficionados de la época. No existen informes sobre los intentos de reproducción, lo que indicaría que no tuvieron éxito.

1933- Haertel, que se había reservado los primeros discus arribados en 1930, recibe una partida desde Nueva York, los que había adquirido a M.Dwigth Winter de Pittsburg a un costo superior a U$S 100,00 cada ejemplar. Por su lado Winter había retenido para sí una cantidad de ejemplares de los cuales obtuvo algún desove, sin que llegaran a eclosionar los huevos.

1934- En Filadelfia M. F. Barret obtiene la primera eclosión, pero los alevines son devorados por los padres

1935- También en Filadelfia el comerciante G. Ambruster consigue llevar adelante con éxito el primer desove y eclosión, pudiendo llevar a tamaño adulto unos cuantos ejemplares de Symphysodon. Este sería el primer caso registrado de reproducción en cautividad del discus. Sin embargo los padres se rehusaron a desovar nuevamente.

1935- En Alemaniam el criador Beirlein reporta el nacimiento de varios Symphysodon, de los cuales alrededor de 40 llegan a estado adulto. Este sería el primer caso registrado en Europa de reproducción en cautividad del discus, a poco de haberse obtenido éxito en EE.UU.

1939- El criador Hoffman por un lado, y poco después su colega Mitsch (ambos alemanes) logran reproducirlos. Hoffman presenta 30 ejemplares semiadultos y Mitsch 50 jóvenes Symphysodon.
Este mismo año Williams T. Innes publica la primera foto de un disco azul y se lo acusa de haber retocado la foto.

1939-1946: La Segunda Guerra Mundial produjo un vacío total (al menos en la información), ya que no se registran reportes sobre reproducción ni comercialización de discus. Alemania, país que siempre ha provisto grandes criadores, fue epicentro del conflicto y obviamente el acuarismo sufrió el mismo impacto que todas las demás actividades no bélicas. Después de la guerra Alemania no estaba en condiciones de importar peces, por lo que el eje de la actividad se ubicó en los EE.UU.

1946- Paramount Aquarium (de Nueva York) financia una expedición al Amazonas con la intención de colectar peces, pero el objetivo fundamental era colectar discus. La expedición produce 150.000 ejemplares pero entre ellos ningún discus.

1946- La misma firma financia una nueva expedición a cargo del ictiólogo Cochu y en esta oportunidad son obtenidos alrededor de 40 Symphysodon.

1947- El mismo Cochu obtiene de una pareja capturada en su expedición, alrededor de 600 alevines en varias posturas.

1951/1953- Merstein adquiere una pareja (1951) que tras dos años produce una postura de la cual expone 30 ejemplares juveniles.

1953- El criador americano Dodd exhibe unos 600 elevines, sin dar detalles sobre la forma de reproducirlos por considerarlo un secreto.

1956- El Dr.Schmidt del Tropical Aquarium (Frankfurt) reporta su primer desove producto de una pareja compuesta por un ejemplar de su propiedad y otro perteneciente al Dr. E. Meder.

1956- El mismo Dr. Meder publica una comunicación sobre Symphysodon discus Heckel, en el boletín alemán "Zeitschrift Vivaristik".

1957- Nuevo éxito en la reproducción logrado por Schmidt y Meder, quienes presentan 60 ejemplares jóvenes.

1959- Este año parece iniciar una nueva etapa en la reproducción del discus, ya que se registran innumerables éxitos en Alemania, comenzando por los Dres. R. Geisler y M. Roensch que anuncian varios éxitos. Al mismo tiempo difunden información sobre los métodos empleados (en particular el tratamiento del agua).

1960- Se reportan a nivel internacional centenares de casos de reproducción del discus en cautividad en todo el mundo, la mayoría utilizando los métodos recomendados por Geisler y Roensch.
1960- El Dr.Leonard Schultz (del Museo Nacional de los Estados Unidos) publica en la revista Tropical Fish Hobbyist una revisión del Género Symphysodon Heckel, 1840, que fue motivo de discuciones a nivel internacional (ver Aquarama Nº 57, mayo 1981, pág. 18, por R. Algayer y Jacques Teton -Francia-).

1960/1976- Prácticamente en todo el mundo se obtienen desoves de Symphysodon aequifasciata axelrodi (discus marrón). Con el transcurso de los años también se obtienen los primeros desoves de discus azul o verde (Symphysodon aequifasciata aequifasciata), incluyendo la Argentina donde se registran reportes de aficionados y criadores.

1976- Se reporta la primera experiencia de reproducción en el sudeste asiático del discus marrón. Por la trascendencia posterior este hecho fue adquiriendo a través del tiempo la característica legendaria que hoy lo identifica. Eso se debe a que, partiendo de aquella primera reproducción, se han obtenido por selección, hormonización, alimentación y fijación genética, las más diversas variedades cromáticas (que se producen por millones hoy en día).

1981- El Dr. Warren E. Burgess publica la descripción de un nuevo Symphysodon (Tropical Fish Hobbyist, marzo de 1981, páginas 32-42 "10. New Information on the Species of the Genus SYMPHYSODON With the Description of a New Subespecies of S. DISCUS Heckel"). Hasta ese momento se tomaba como una simple variación cromática del S.discus el que posteriormente fuera conocido como Symphysodon discus willischwartzi (Burgess, 1981). El nombre, obviamente, en homenaje a Willi Schwart, propietario del Acuario Río Negro de Manaus (Brasil), quien dedicó grandes esfuerzos a la investigación de la fauna acuática de su país.
En nuestros archivos se encuentra disponible una copia de este informe. Quienes lo requieran para estudios específicos pueden solicitar copia a nuestro e-Mail.

La historia contemporánea del discus es fácil de localizar en revistas especializadas. Se han producido tantas variaciones cromáticas en los últimos 10 años que puede considerarse superior a las mutaciones y variaciones producidas en Carassius durante más de 2000 años. Y como esto recién comienza, habrá que seguir esperando novedades.

[Lil_Beth]

Thank you Fransisco,

That is a great site. I found a way to translate it.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://elacuarista.com/secciones/discus1_index.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://elacuarista.com/secciones/discus1_index.htm%2B%2B%2B%2B%2B%2B%26hl%3Den%26lr %3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DG

I've found that if you use Google.com to search for stuff, It offers a translated version.

Thanks for the input.,
Courtney

Hi Lil_Beth, Courtney

I have nothing to contribute all I would know was already said ;D but I wanted to wish you the very best with your work.
I also would love to see it when you are done.
It is also fabulous to see that so many know about the history of this amazing Fish.

Ronald

[DarkDiscus]

Courtney,

Sounds like a great project! I second the motion regarding getting that project posted here when you are done - I'm sure we could even help edit and offer some suggestions that way. I'm not great at research sources, but I know a little bit about writing and style and volunteer to help with that!

Plus then we can save a copy of your final report in our library for future reference!

Good luck!

John

[Lil_Beth]

Hey everybody,
I have a rough draft of my paper due this Wednesday comming. If I have finished it I will post it.

Courtney

[Ardan]

:thumbsup: 8)

[Francisco_Borrero]

Courtney, the counts are as follows:

("Number of vertical scale rows from upper edge of opercular openning in straight line to base of caudal fin")

S.discus : 44-48 (n=4 specimens examined)

S.a.aequifasciata: 52-61 (n=22 specimens)
S.a.haraldi: 53 (n=1 specimen)
S.a.axelrodi: 50-59 (n=28 specimens)

Source: Schultz, Leonard P. (1960). A review of the pompadour or discus fishes, Genus Symphysodon of South America. Tropical Fish Hobbyist, June 1960.

Note the lack of information for the blue discus, S.a.haraldi (1 specimen). Thus the range for this variety is not available. Note the overlap among the 3 "subspecies" of Symphysodon aequifasciata, and the lesser numbers for the heckel discus, S. discus.
Since then, it is known that there are several "types" of heckels, but no one has provided updated info on scale counts.

Good luck and cheers, Francisco.

[thebaglady]

Hi Courtney/aka Lil_Beth (plus Lil_Lil_Beth)

It's neat that you like discus now. You're not alone. Fish keeping is a really popular hobby, right up there with gardening! We are all excited to read your final paper.

I have two girls. One of them is off at college and she was so sad to leave our two kitties and the dog behind. The only pets they would let her have in her dorm were fish!! She got your basic betta with pathos plant growing out the top.

My other daughter, who's a Junior in HS, just interviewed for a position at a Petsmart. They asked her "and how do you feel about mealworms" She didn't even flinch. That's my girl!! ;)

It's a great hobby. Good luck with it and your new little one. :D Jen K.

[Lil_Beth]

Hello Everyone.....

Thanks for your support!!!!! It has been very helpful.

I wanted to have a copy of my paper ready for you guys today, but everything has been so hectic.... As soon as I get something together worthy of posting, I promise I will.....

Courtney

[Smokey]

Good Luck

Smokey

[limige]

good luck courtney, i hope you do well on your paper!!

BETH!! wow :o

it must be your water over there, not only are the fishies having babies but now her daughter too!!!! ;D

hehe, congrats and good luck with all.

[Lil_Beth]

Hey guys and gals......

I posted the first part of my paper......
It is under research paper......

As soon as I'm finished with it I will post the rest.....

Courtney

[vinci]

Hi beth,
I'm doing a research too on discus. Now looks like i'm having the same problem like what you did.
Can you give me some information to enlighten me up please