Peat Filtration

[FishGuru]

Hi, I was wondering if peat would have any impact on my water. Straight out the tap my water is 7.6 pH, 15gh, and 12kh, what would peat filtration do to my water??? Any experience on this subject would be great (as i am a newbie to discus). Thanks!

[Carol_Roberts]

Not much. My well water is GH 11, pH 7.8

[Surfghost63]

Hi FishGuru, welcome to Simplydiscus :wave:

In my first two months I used Sera Peat granules to reduce the ph and hardness of my tap water, as it was a chore and the Ph only dropped around .5 so I decided to stop using it, my tap water is 7.5 - 7.6 Ph, 6 Gh and 3 Kh, I leave it alone.

HTH,

Bill :guitarist:

P.S. I followed Carol's advices, they are great :ok:

[Jason]

canadian peat is worth a try it works alot better than euro peat (ie: sera pellets, hagen peat plates).

I suspect that with a kh of 12 your water is pretty well buffered against a ph change.....but there are alot of benifits to useing peat besides lowering ph.

treat peat like a tool,just like anything else you use ro units, siphon hoses, meds...etc etc

[Smokey]

Hi FishGuru: Hope I can share my expierences, reguarding the use of peat to condition water.

I have been using a 4 gallon peat filter, for my water for about 6 months now. I am extrememy happy with the reuslts/water/

ex: my tap water parameters are =
pH - 8.5
gh - 450ppm
kh - 450ppm
chlorine - 2ppm
ammonia - 2ppm

I set the tap water to run at about 85'F. I then have the water flow through a sealed container, full of peat moss- ( ~4 gallons of peat).

The peat filtered water parameters are:
pH - 6.5
gh - ~35ppm
kh - ~ 15ppm
I treat the peat filtered water for chlorine and ammonia in the storage container.

The peat, according to my test results, will become exhausted after about 90 gallons. This will proberly vary with your water. I do not produce more than 45 gallons at a time, takes about 45 minutes to fill the storage container. I use a low flow rate - 1/2 to 3/4 a gallon per minute, I find this gives the water time to interact with the peat.

I , and my discus are very happy with the peat filterd water. It seems to give a calming effect on them The tannins/colour relax the discus.

Smokey
It works for me!

[Rob R.]

Smokey, I have a similar setup and it is AWESOME! The fish absolutely love the peat. I use the line coming from the prefilters on my RO unit, that way the water is filtered and dechlorinated before it goes to the "Peat Monster" as my filter is so accurately named. Is your filter pressurized? I have found that a sealed container(I use 4 inch PVC) with the output smaller then the input(produces pressure) REALLY works good. I found that the more pressure you can produce thruogh the peat, the more "good stuff" you will add to your water.
You have found an excellent way so 'simulate' the rainforest waters that discus are native to, and I bet you have some of the happiest discus around 8)
ROB

[Liz_Streithorst]

Rob, This sounds really interesting. Is this a DIY filter? Could you post pics or give a detailed description of it's construction? Do you know if it has affected the conductivity of your water as well as the pH? Smokey, same questions. I have been told that peat is not supposed to have an affect on gH and kH, but this is not the case for you. Have you taken a conductivity measurement? I'm having water problems myself and am stuck as to what to do.

Liz

[Rob R.]

Liz,
I will try to borrow a camera and get some pictures for you. If your conductivity is too high I would suggest getting an RO unit. The peat is used mainly to lower PH, but it does soften the water slightly. You could try it and see how much it softens your water. Anything you can devise that forces water through the peat will work. I used a large piece of PVC with a water line attached to one end and a hole in the other. The end with the hole has a threaded cap to remove/replace the peat.

[Liz_Streithorst]

Rob, I think that tis may be just what I need. My mS is 238 from the tap but my gH is 0, indicating that the high conductivity is NOT due to minerals. My pH is 7.5 which is higher than I would like. Since you have threaded cap on the end opposite the input, where do you have the output pipe. Tell me that and I'l have it licked, but it would still be nice if you got pics and posted it in the DIY section. I'm sure other folks who don't visit this section much would like seeing it.

Liz

[Rob R.]

Hi Liz,
Sorry about the lame description (I was tired). The threaded cap is what has the hole in it. The unit hangs over the side of my prep tub, so there is no output pipe--just a small hole for the water to come blasting out. All the pieces I found at home depot in the PVC section. I'm not sure what you use to fill your tubs, I use a 1/4 inch tube commonly used on RO's. You could easily use a regular hose or whatever you want, just find the right adapter. Again, I will try to find a camera and get you some pix.
HTH :)
Rob

[Smokey]

Rob. R ; Howdey ; I use a 5 gallon plastic bucket for my ''PEAT BOMB''!. The tap water flows down a tube , down to the bottom of the bucket/peat. The water has to ''trickle'' up through the peat in order to exit; through an opening in the top of the lid. From there, I just let it flow through a hose, into the storage tank.
Yes it is pressurized! I use a tightening strap to hold the lid on and prevent leakage. ''WARNING'' peat does expand as it becomes saturated.
It is crude - but works well.

One noticable interesting point - THE DISCUS HAVE NEVER BEEN ILL, NO FUNGUS, NO BACTERIS, NO NOTHING !!!
It is understood peat has benifical tannins and ''HEALTH'' benifits.
Not being a bio-chemist I am not exactly sure how the peat does what it does. HOWEVER - IT DOES DO WHAT IT DOES ... VERY WELL.

The brand I use is .. SUNSHINE PEAT. Mined in Alberta, Canada , sold by SUN GRO. [www.sungro].
It is distributed in U.S.A., also.

My tank water is brown from the peat tannins. I would rather have brown water than sick discus.

Smokey.

[Jason]

The best peat bombs I've seen were made from 3ft propane cylinders.

I read this tip somewhere on here I think Dennis H, posted it.

stuff peat around the micron cartridge on a magnum and run it on your holding container. I've been doing this for 3 weeks now and it works great! not a speck of dirt in the water!

for the people that use it continuosly, be warned it will lose its effectiveness on the fish over time, eventually you'll need to go back to tap for awile, then back to peat.

[Smokey]

Liz. I use the Hagen water hardness test kit. Liguid.
The hardness is especially what peat reacts with. The peat ''ADSORBS'' the salts, [ minerals] in the water.
My raw tap water has a hardness of 450ppm gh/450ppm kh. In degrees hardness - 450ppm = ~25 degrees. [18ppm = 1degree. ]
The final water is - pH = 6.8; gH = 125ppm/7 dGH; kh = 30ppm/1.68 dKH.
after treating and aireating, heating I add to the tanks.

Perhaps you are thinking of the little peat pellets, sold at the lfs. they are rather small and will exhaust quiclkly!!!
I use 4 gallons to treat the water for my holding tank . ~90 gallons.

HTH

Smokey

[Smokey]

Jason; quote-for the people that use it continuosly, be warned it will lose its effectiveness on the fish over time, eventually you'll need to go back to tap for awile, then back to peat. ].

Exactly what are you saying here???

Smokey

[Steve_Warner]

Hi all,
Here's an interesting link about Tannins.

http://boto.ocean.washington.edu/aog/tannin.htm


Steve

[Jason]

if want to use peat for dropping ph and to induce spawning, don't use it 24-7-365. use it to get the results you want, then go back to tap.

even ro gives same same problems on some pairs, you use ro water they spawn a few times then stop, go back to straight tap and they'll spawn again, if not go back to ro again.

like I always say, peat and ro and other stuff are just "tools" use them at the right time and they do the job, use them 24-7 and they wear out.

[Smokey]

Interesting theroy. You are saying the discus get used to their water and will not spawn. O.K.

Hmmm, some members have stated that their discus have spawned in water ranging from pH 5.0 to 8.4. all kind of hardness numbers.

My understanding; the rainy season brings fresh water, high water and food. This is believed to trigger spawning.
Safety and security - food for the fry to survive.
The same as for most animals . Natural instinct !

However, one has to have healthy discus, to start with !

Dead DISCUS DO NOT SPAWN.

EVERY TRY USING COOLER WATER ?

Smokey

[Rob R.]

If I ever used straight tap water I would have some extremely unhappy discus. The amount of acid i would have to use to get the PH down would raise the conductivity to the point that my fish would never breed.
Smokey, sounds like you got 'er figured out---good work. If you ever get a chance to post some pix, I would LOVE to see your fish and your BOMB ;D ;D
Rob

[ronrca]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

What are you guys talking about? I was under the impression the you use peat all the time, 24/7/365/52/12/1/forever!??????????????

Ok, so what is the schedule? 3 days peat a week, 4 days off or something? 3 weeks peat, 1 week off?

What about the ph, gh, kh differences? How do you compensate with the tap?

[Jason]

Smokey>"Interesting theroy. You are saying the discus get used to their water and will not spawn. O.K. "

Its not a theory, its a fact, while its true that some fish will spawn no matter what you do, or not do, its the changes in their enviroment that trigger spawning behavior, its been inprinted into them over millions of years.

Smokey>"EVERY TRY USING COOLER WATER ?"

yes of course I have, and that proves my point, rainy season rains drop the temp in the amazon, cool water change= simulation of the rains= enviromental stimulus.

Using peat itself is meant to recreate natural stimuli
rains run through the forest floor on its way to the river picking up organic compounds, more forest gets submerged, releasing tannins, humins, etc.,etc. into the water. How do we artificialy re-create this effect? Peat!

Smokey>"Hmmm, some members have stated that their discus have spawned in water ranging from pH 5.0 to 8.4. all kind of hardness numbers. "

of course some have, I've even gotten fry in partial seawater, the drive to spawn and survive is strong, mother nature builds her creatures to survive and pass their genes to the next generation, and while discus are very adaptable, not all are. Although discus can and will spawn in water parameters outside of their natural "range" not all will, if all discus could be spawned in ph8.2 350us., there would be no need for r.o. units, dionizers, peat moss, etc., etc.

If your using peat to bring your tap water closer to a natural range, great-go for it, its far more enviromentaly responsible than wasting tons of ro reject water or using nasty chemicals, and as the people who do use it will notice many benifits

but,but, but! if you are relying on peat to induce spawning in your fish,and your using it non-stop 365 days a year, your luck will run out on some fish, easily cureable by stopping the peat use, then restarting.

IME, and I've been doing this a loooong time! for the spawning of discus fishes, peat is far more effective when its use is cycled!

enviromental changes=stimulus=spawning fish.

static conditions=stagnant enviroment=not as much spawning activity.

90% of all the modern day spawning tips and tricks we do, have a natural counterpart in the amazon!

So, I think we should divide peat use into two types, use 1 to bring tap water into a more natural living range to make your fish happy,happy,happy.
and use 2 to simulate a natural enviromental change to make your fish horny,horny,horny.

ok so I know smokey's thinking, well if the fish are happy they'll spawn, and yes thats true, but not all will, JMO peat is far better when its use is cycled to give some fish the kick in the *** they need to get the job done. Even doing cool water changes 365 days a year will cause it to lose its effectiveness.

and Smokey, why you trying to harsh my mellow like that? who convinced you to use peat in the first place?

where's the love my brother???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

[ronrca]

"So, I think we should divide peat use into two types, use 1 to bring tap water into a more natural living range to make your fish happy,happy,happy.
and use 2 to simulate a natural enviromental change to make your fish horny,horny,horny."
Does that work on wifes too? :-\ LOL!

I think you guys are on drugs...I mean you are smoking peat! ;D

But you didnt answer my question! What schedule do you use? Just when inducing a spawn or on a regular basis like 3 days/week, etc? How do you conpensate for different water parameters going from peat to tap and vise versa?

Thanks!

[Smokey]

I am using peat to soften my water. And lower the natural pH. This is not for inducing spawing; but to give them ''safe'' water.
I have found peat economical to use and very effective.
The average hobbiest can ''soften'' their water, using peat.
NOT - high tech. [mind you ; one or two little peat pellats might have only marginal effects].

[Smokey]

howdey - just to add a bit more.
when I want my fish to spawn, I will alter their enviornment. Induced spawning. as opposed to letting them spawn when every they feel like it.

A large water change is usually successful. A slight temperature difference, etc.

However, in the past, I have found keeping the water ''clean'' , good diet, good filteration, prober temperatur helps.

Perhaps, what is meant ... a change in water values ... pH temp, hardnest, etc; may/does induce a fish's natural instinct to reproduce.
Caonditions are best for spawning ... food, safety.

Smokey

[Jason]

RONRCA>"But you didnt answer my question! What schedule do you use? Just when inducing a spawn or on a regular basis like 3 days/week, etc? How do you conpensate for different water parameters going from peat to tap and vise versa? "


How can I give you a schedule or time-line for its use in days or weeks.

if you want to use it for pairing/spawning use it to get the desired effect, when the job is done, put it back on the shelf. so it can be just as effective the next time.

on adult discus in good spawning condition, I have no problems dropping the ph from 6.8 to 4.5 in a 24-36 hour period.

moving up the scale that quick, will smoke your fish, especially the little ones.

although forums are great people tend to take things far to literaly, internet and books are great for learning,but they can never replace old fashion experience that comes from hours and hours of hands-on trial and error.

[ronrca]

Ok! Let me ask another question!

How long do you use peat water? Just for inducing the spawn, then back to tap? Or longer, until the fry are around 1"?


moving up the scale that quick, will smoke your fish, especially the little ones.
Do you then do just 10% water changes with tap daily so not to change parameters?

Thanks!

[Jason]

If I'm spawning a stubborne pair like wilds in low ph and hardness, I use a big tank with lots of bio filering capacity.

I have water of the same values on hand in case I need to make an emergency w/c-like if the ph is in danger of crashing.

I dont feed the parents for about two weeks from the time they spawned, I change very little water but keep the tank spotless, I then slowly start raising the values closer too my tap water little by little, I also drip tap in with adjustable drippers, by a month they should be away from the parents and in pure tap.

that's one of my methods for wilds and an example of where I would use peat in a breeding application.

I'm not claimming the method I use is "the way to go", I'm also not claiming I'm 100% successful all the time, or I get max fry and less culls with this method.
Its just what works for me on certain applications, and its the way I do things after alot of trial and error.

so to answer your question the best I can, I may use it for two weeks prior to spawning and in descending amounts for awile after. Its the fish that dictate how long I'm gonna use it, not me--I'm not as smart as they are :P

[Mr.Trips]

I need some questions answered Please:

I am running penquin 330 Filters, with the floss/carbon inserts, will the carbon absorb the peat?

On the 330's in the back are holding baskets, can I put the peat in them?

How long does the peat work, and how often should it be changed?

Does Peat take an minerals out of the water to effect my live Plants?

Does anyone Know if Petsmart carries the stuff, or where a good place is to order it?

Thanks!

[ronrca]

Thanks Jason! THats what I wanted! ;)

Just for clarity! You basicly dont do any water changes for the first two weeks from the spawn, just drip tap water!?

Peat is usually sold in hardware/gardening stores in bales that are pretty heavy. Just ask and you will be shown! LFS dont carry it!

[dred]

Mr. Trips,

Sources for peat: I know of two: 1) LFS (Petsmart included) will get you a small quantity of processed peat for a large $ outlay, or 2) any home garden retailer will get you a large quantity of raw peat for low $ outlay. I've never tried the LFS stuff, but I know Fluval packages the stuff and marks it up considerably as a substrate for their canisters.

On treating with peat, you have several options. You can bag some up float in your filters or your tank. You can float it in your water storage as a pre-treatment. Or, you can treat the water entering either the tank or the storage container with a "peat bomb". A peat bomb just describes any means of forcing the water to pass through peat. My peat bomb is made from a white plastic jug which is stuffed with peat with filter floss placed between the lid and the exit hole from the jug. The 1/4" feed line goes directly into the bottom of the jug, and forces water past the peat, traps peat particles in the filter floss, and then forces it out of the exit hole on the top fo the jar. I use it to treat the water as my storage containers are filled.

I prefer adjusting stuff in the storage container, so that everything added to the tank is "known". My concern is that I don't have control over the "effect" of the peat when/if floated in the storage, the filter or the tank. I've had loads stipped by my bomb that resulted in a storage container with a pH of 3.3 - and I'm glad that didn't happen inside the tank, so ...

Oh, and peat is full time here - not using it as a spawn inducer, so ...

milton

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Very Good Therad Jason!


Hats Off!!! ;D

[April]

;D 8) to one of my oldtimer heros. lol.

[Jason]

RONRCA>"Just for clarity! You basicly dont do any water changes for the first two weeks from the spawn, just drip tap water!?"

In that paticular method no, I change very little, but I always keep the tank clean, I will change water if I have too! Its just for the last few years my hobby has leaned more towards wilds and spawning them in more "extreme" water parameters, and I found doing it that way works best for me, luckily after they've spawned a few times for you, its alot easier to get them to do it in tap.

best case scenerio, or spawning domestics, I don't use peat, I use straight tap, and I change as much water as the fry can handle!

HTH

but honestly the point I'm trying to make here is forums are a great source of info, books are too. but at some point you need to get off the computer, put down the book, quit calling the breeder during dinner. and go play with your fish and water-you gotta figure out alot of stuff on your own, anyone can read penang discus, and all the forums and become an overnight "expert" but to truly understand the fish and its needs/wants-you have to learn from the fish.

if you learn solely from the forums, you'll need the forums

if you learn from the fish, all you need is the fish

[Steve_Warner]

Hi all,
Great thread and very stimulating thoughts.
Amazon rains also bring cooler temps + surface agitation & softer water=diluted hardness=more dissolved gas capacity capability=more Dissolved Oxygen and on and on. I would love to find the equation as to what the specific triggers are, but IMO, all of these play small roles in the big picture. Ooooh, I love to wonder about things like this!

Steve

P.S ...........and onto 500!

[ronrca]

Steve,
We may never be able to figure it out. I mean isnt it the same issue when it comes to our wifes "as to what the specific triggers are"?

The answer probably lies in your statement
all of these play small roles in the big picture!

;D LOL!

[Smokey]

Mr. Trips; - the stuff to use is ''SPHAGNUM PEAT''. 100%, no additives ! ''Sunshine'' Brand is one brand. It is available at local hardware stores in large bales - $5.00. The ''used'' peat is excellant for the garden or potted plants. 100% recycleable.

Carbon will adsorb the coloration. One person states he carbon filters the peat conditioned water. So he has clear water.

Peat ''ADSORBS'' minerals - hardness. which results in SOFT WATER. Because the ''hardness - minerals are removed ; a drop in the pH occurs.

Yes, you could put the peat into your filter. However, a little peat is not as effective as alot of peat.
Peat, like carbon, does become ''EHAUSTED''. It can no longer ''ADSORB''; so replacing the peat regularly is a good idea. Like carbon, peat will ''LEACH'' THE ADSORBED ''SALTS'' back into the water, after a time period. YOU DO NOT WANT THIS TO HAPPEN.
How long will it last .. not very long !

DRED HAS AN EXCELLANT METHOD FOR INTANK USE.

Peat starts to work as soon as water is passed through it.

Since I use peat to condition the tap water, before it is pumped into the tanks; The peat is only used as a one pass conditioner. ex: - 4 gallons of peat will condition ~ 90 gallons of ''my'' tap water. After 90 gallons I notice [ test results] the gh and kh and ph numbers rise. SO I DISCARD THE PEAT !

IMPE/IMPO - I would suggest treating your tap water before it is placed into the aquarium. If you do deceide to place peat into your aquarium ... closely moniter the pH and replace the peat ; hmmm - daily.[?]. Trial and observation is the magic word here.

NOTE - I do not suggest a person just throw peat into a tank and walk away. Until one is comfortable and knows how the peat will affect their water ... be careful. TAKE NOTES !

HTH

Smokey

[Smokey]

Steve - wonder away. lol.
Just a theory:
Flowers and Candy.
Flowers - the sweet smell of fresh water !
Candies - a stimula for the appitite !
Soft music - soft water !
Mood lighting - the darkening of the waters !
Soft music - the sounds of water flowing by !

Smokey

[ronrca]

Those may be some!
What about:
Washing dishes
Cleaning house
Giving back rub
Buying roses
bubble bath
Chocolate
Listening
Etc, etc!

O yeah and :-* :-*

LOL!

[April]

hmmmm...... Ronrca...sounds like you have one species worked out..surely you will have no trouble with the rounder shinier more colourful species. lol.
think it all comes down to kindness..for whatever species. treat well and they will treat you well back. ::)

[Smokey]

April; always the sensiable one ! >treat well and they will treat you well back.<
Just when we think we got it figured out ... April brings us back to reality.

Thanks for the words of wisdom, Pril.

Smokey

[Jason]

LOL!

"wine is fine, but liquor is quicker!"