To Cross or Not to Cross....

[brewmaster15]

Crossing strains and crossing back to the Wilds is one of those issues that everyone has an opinion on. Whats your opinion and why?

Personally I think out crossing between different strains is a great way to add new genes back to a weaker line... Especially if you are crossing to a wild.
The results can be beautiful fish and with much patience new strains can be created. This is the source of ALL the strains commercially availible. Any Domestic fish are the result of this kind of breeding.

Crosses should be accurately described though with the appropriate description...not a fancy Name., example...f1 from a wild greenX blue ss . A name should not be given to the product of selective breeding until the offspring breeds true..This can take many generations of breeding.

Anyone have some F1s they can show pics of?

Heres some of mine... F1 Red TurqX Blue Snakeskin...

[brewmaster15]

.....

[brewmaster15]

....

[brewmaster15]

....

[brewmaster15]

....

[brewmaster15]

these are F1 wild greenX Blue ss...

...same Mom as the previous pics...

[CARY_GLdiscus]

I VOTE CROSS!

More then likely When You buy a group of 8 of the same strain They are brother and sister. Not knowing what genaration they are can lead to many problems later when breeding.

A honest breeder or hobbiest should let you know what Your working with if you ask and plan to breed. My go is to allways outcross when I can to the same strain but different Stock Or to other bloodlines that will come up with a cool looking f1 cross that I can line breed and inbreed for many many years to come up with a Great looking Discus in the end.

Here is a list of many discus am working with right now that are crosses and IMO a much bigger stronger Discus after words.

Bluediamond X whitePB
blue snake X blue diamond
PB ss X blue snake
White Pb X tangarine
Rsg,Gold Diamond,bluesnake X snowflake
red melon X gold diamond
RSG X Pb
RSG X PB snake
blue snake X red snake
RSG X leopard + leopardsnakes.

Also note Many of the discus being sold now are from crosses. Melons,leopards,lepaord snakes, solid covers, Most Pbs, blue diamonds ETC. ETC.. ETC.. bla, bla, bla, and So on.

Blue Diamond male X Colbalt female= All colbalts with blue diamond genes. if brother and siter are inbred f2 again You will see blue Diamonds in a small % Theses can be inbred and line breed to produce your very own High quality BD again.

colbalt
blue turk
BlueDiamond females X SnakeSkin male = scorpion snakes. theses snakes have a much finer pattern then the original snakeskin. The color is reversed from brown body blue lines to blue body brown lines.


Male leopard or better yet! Tefe Rsg X solid PB white or orange base = Pb leopards
To produce a high Quality discus like this with good color you will need to do things a little different. From this f1 cross your babies will not look so good. very poor pattern and color.
So what do You do? IME its best to save the females and back cross them to the father to pull out more spotting and color.
When You reach f3 or f4 And happy Then now you can line breed and produce some very nice looking discus.

Most of the newer strains are done this way!
red/whites
yellow/whites
pb/ snakes
leopards
melons
lep/snakes NOTE! Tefe RSGs will give you more spotting then any spotted type will on a cross And true Golds not Pb will clean up Your Pb f1 Frys.

Man I could on and on and on. But You catch my drift!

TakeCare,
Cary Gld!

[fcdiscus]

LOL! Yes Cary- and I agree 100%. Frank

[jeep]

IME its best to save the females and back cross them to the father to pull out more spotting and color.
When You reach f3 or f4 And happy Then now you can line breed and produce some very nice looking discus.


Here's where I get a little confused. When you say to cross the female fry back to the father and then eventually achieve f4, are you crossing the gran-fry (for lack of a better word) back with the same father for 4 generations?

Brian

[gary1218]

Al - with those pics you definitely make a good case for crossing. Those fish are beautiful.

GARY

Hi Cary,

what is a true gold?

Do you know where i can find a pic?

Why is it that Tefe rsg will throw more spots than a regular rsg?

thanks

alex

[mench]

OK AL,you are killing me...when can I come and pick up some of those super looking snakes...remember you are ONLY 6 hrs (or so) away and I drive fast.......Great looking fish

Mench

[April]

Mench.....you cant have anymore fish!!!!
Brew those are very nice.
all my manas which everyone has seen..are all crosses. and i d say they turned out rather nice. and i can play around with them for quite awhile.

AHHhh...I can remember some pretty good KNOCK DOWN....DRAG EM' OUT fights on some of the forums of old, on this very subject. Im sure Al and a few others remember em also. I think I still have a few scar'shttp://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/_950/help.gif

My opinion...I agree with you Al...no problems at all...PROVIDING any future buyers are made aware that the fish are cross's and are named appropriatly.

Cary....feel free to go on and on and on ;D I dont think anyones gonna mind....I know ya have it in yahttp://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/p/phone.gif hee heee

Tony

[Ryan]

http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/p/phone.gif

Tony, where did you find a picture of me? :spit:

Ryan

Damn!...you to Ryan?....got a headset like Cary does? Betcha his monthly phone bill would make a good mortgage payment!!

Tonyhttp://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/_950/wonder.gif

[Ryan]

LOL Yeah I have a headset so I can type and talk at the same time. Can't slow down or I'll never get sh!t done, ya know?

[brewmaster15]

Cary has a headset?...get out of here! ;D ;D ;D sorry , can't picture it!

Is this a new discus trend? Maybe I should get one. Its got to be better than dropping the cordless in the tank.(they do dry out and work well after :) )
-al


ps..
Tony I have those same scars ;)

[April]

I remember hearing all those stories also. it was the forbidden thing....and no one would want them....i was shaking in my boots if i saw two unlike fish in my tanks pairing up.
Yes.Cary walks around with his headset on while doing wc. etc.
YOU need one brew.....i dropped my cordless in a bucket of pp. seemed to have an effect on the battery. it dried out..but the battery has never quite been the same. don't try this in your hatchery. on the other hand....,no virus' or germs on my cordless. ;D

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Headsets + scars,

LOL!

Am on My third pair of Headsets! The scars well they never end hee.hee.hee.
Buy the way brew sony head sets are the best IMO. ;D

Alex the golds are from wild browns not PB. when outcrossed to any other PB type most of the BLK pepper is removed in the F1 fry. Also the tefe RSG is the only true spotted
Discus in the wild. These were used in line breeding to come up with all the spotted types today.

Even if you take a wild rsg male and cross it with a red turk you will come up with a small % of spotted F1s. better known as red diamonds. Now if You line breed for a few genarations and then back cross to the male to increase the spotting as you go along you will increase the spotting so much that now you can call your Discus a leopard And so on and so on!

It takes alot of work time and luck!

Jeep,
When I take F1 fry and back cross them to the father I still mark the fry as f2 (backcross). If I breed brother to Sister I mark the fry (F2 inbred). Give Me a call I can explain it better over the Phone hee.hee.hee

TakeCare,
Cary Gld!

[chuck]

Stupid Question,
But when We're talking about backcrossing /line breeding etc we see the f2 outcome until 2-3 years from the initial first spawn? correct?

Parents breed -f1 fry produced- 1-1.5 yrs to mature -f1 crossed back to parent- f2 produced - another year or so to mature ..etc
so to establish a newer strain it could take 5 years or so? then what happens to all the offspring that's not used or don't have the traits wanted?

chuck

[brewmaster15]

Hi Chuck,


so to establish a newer strain it could take 5 years or so? then what happens to all the offspring that's not used or don't have the traits wanted?


absolutely right, fixing a strain is a long term commitment! Someday I hope to be able to say I have done this.... and as for the ones that are not used or don't have the traits I want....These fish get culled if they are malformed...but if they are healthy fish... you just sell them or give them away with the appropriate info. on the generation and parents. They may not be exactly what you the breeder wanted to work with for your stock... but they may be perfectly good and beautiful fish. Some may even have the potential to become a strain you never even imagined would transpire from that first cross. They Key is honesty... You should maintain it when describing the fish.

hth,
al

[chuck]

I agree with you 100%. It's mind boggling when you think about how many newer strains seem to come around each year were started years ago. But then you also hear alot of disapointments when someone buys a strain that doesn't breed true and they get a bunch of fry that don't look like the parents.. That's when the Honesty part has to come in, they have to be sold by the breeder as "xyz" X "ABC" not as a "tropical peach cori" ....
I think thats what the old wars were about they (ole timers of the forum) went about saying there were "x" amount of proven breed true strains and everything else were hybrid backyard strains and they were not being sold as such and/or should not be sold with the same price as the true strain breeders.
I agree with that.. I feel that if the strain is not fixed they should be priced according and not command such a high price as a true strain but that is JMO.
chuck

[brewmaster15]

Very Good point Chuck. I also would add to it saying I think the definition of breeding true needs to be more strict. I little while back I was told by a well known seller that a fish only has to breed true 60% of the time for it to be considered a true strain bythe international community and in competitions.
I don't know if that number is true but just the fact that the idea is out there is troubling if it is not true.

flip a coin and its 50-50 % heads or tail .. strain or no strain. From statistical point of view 60% is way too weak a requirement, IMO :)


-al

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Brew,
You and Your Friend are Right! ;)

[Ardan]

Say Cary,
What kind of discus are those in that pic you just posted today?

Is that a peach color??

Peach is my wifes favorite color. Maybe you have other peach colored ones? :P

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Hi Arden,
They are Goldens (NOT PB) ;D


Also I would like to add now that We know how long it could take to come up with a strain and all the work involed is it really so bad that a breeder gives it a speical Name?

I know if I did I would. Yes some take advantage of this but what are we going to do?

TakeCare,
Cary Gld!

[Carol_Roberts]

. . . I think most beginner and intermediate hobbyiests are buying the discus for it's looks and not it's future breeeding capabilities. There is nothing wrong with buying a discus just because it is beautiful and unique. I am a staunch supporter of "paint bucket discus".

[Jason]

outcrossing to other bloodlines and wilds is nothing new or revolutionary.

Jack Wattley and Schmidt-Focke had to trade stock with each other way back in the late 70's.

They started noticing their lines were degrading (small size, weak resistance to disease, infertility, slow maturity) just5 to name a few.

So what did they do? trade lines and bring wilds back into the hatchery.(hybrid vigor)