CBW study

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

I was told by a person that has dealt with tropical fish for almost thirty years, retail, wholesale, as a breeder of both fresh water and salt water, that the university in my home town was ingauged in a long term study on cbw.
I asked are you sure and he said yes it was a two year study I have even supplied them some cbw.
This person has been giving me information on and off for months and I have passed this information on to a couple of forum members that I have private e-mails with.
Yesterday I met and talked with the biologist in charge of the study and was shocked to find out that the study was NOT being done on cbw but on TUBIFEX worms.
I thought my source of information was very knowledgeable and was giving me reliable information. I was wrong.
I truley apologize to the people that I gave any information to.
Dennis Hardenburger

[discus_nw]

Say it isn't so Dennis. Say it isn't so. :'( :'( :'( :'(

Mat ;D

[Denny]

:o

[fcdiscus]

LMAO! ;D Frank

[brewmaster15]

Hi Dennis,
You passed on what you were told, Theres no fault to you on it. Thanks for posting this.

take care,
al

Dennis....(or Mat)

Is this the same University study that Mat was refering to? I hope not...I was genuinely looking forward to any info that came of it...Good or bad. :-\

Tony

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

Yes Tony

Thats unfortunate...No discredit to you though. Or anyone else for that matter. **** happens :-\

Tony

[discus_nw]

Well, I am very disappointed that there will be no test. I have been waiting a year to read all about this, as it is a very in depth study. Too bad it is being done on tubifex and not cbw's.

However, just because this test will not support the disease transmitting capabilities of the cbw, there is still some credible information available. This does nothing to change my mind about them. It would have only served to support my beliefs and experiences. I only wish some of the people who came out of the woodwork contacting me and a couple others about the problems they have incurred AFTER introducing cbw's into their systems and what to do and how to do it would speak up. Perhaps acceptance amongst the forum members is more important than the truth. :-\

Anyway, please remember:

JUST SAY NO TO CBW's.

If interested, I will see what I can do about starting a 12 step program for the cbw users who are powerless over their obsession. ;)

[Johnlee]

I think its time to get over it. Its getting embarrassing.
I have seen no one here trying to change the minds of the chosen few.
Respect that and let others feed their fish in their tanks in their homes
what ever they want, with a little peace and quiet I might add.
Weather its blackworms, beefheart, or trout chow. It just doesn't matter
except to the person who is doing the feeding.
JMO

johnlee

[limige]

well said johnlee, to back that up i might add, even though many praise beefheart i choose not to use it. my fish still grow great and seem to be quite healthy. and i don't have to worry about fouling the water up if i don't have time for wc's.

instead i feed CBW ;D

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

I didn't want to start the whole debate all over again here, just apologize to those that I gave wrong information to.

WE all feed and do what we feel is best for our fish our other pets and ourselfs, and there will always be differences of opinions.
Dennis

[brewmaster15]

Amen Dennis, amen! :)
-al

Now Mat has to buy CBW, Mat I will even ask Dan to send you a pound on my tab... whatcha say!!!! ;) ;)

Dennis honest mixup, many mistake Black worms for tubis and vice versa, and it wasn't your mistake in anycase.... :)

[Denny]

Dennis and Mat

Not much you could do about it.

Can you talk them into doing a cbw study after they wrap up on the tubifex? it seems that it may be a good followup for them and they should be able to use some of the same tests.

[fcdiscus]

I don't know! I seem to have done my own study. I have used them for a year now. I have hardly any disease. I would say none, but there are occasional fluke bouts to deal with. My fish are very fat and prolific. I have not seen a tapeworm in a long long time. I am sold, but I do agree- to each his own. Frank 8)

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Dennis,
Way to go as far as Being a stand up Guy thats honest!
Hats off to You.


As far as a cbw study goes Me and Dw allready did one that we shared here on this site.
Boy how soon we forget! Anyone! do we still have that post?
Anyways we are doing another one here real soon. As far as the last report the sample came back CLEAN!

Hth
Cary Gld!

[Johnlee]

About tests that have been performed on blackworms.
I also remember seeing here some time ago that some members have had tests done.
Can you enlighten us about what kind of tests were done
and what the results were.

johnlee

[Ardan]

Thanks Dennis for the honesty and letting us know. 8)

It wasn't your mistake.

[wildthing]

Dennis,
Way to go as far as Being a stand up Guy thats honest!
Hats off to You.


As far as a cbw study goes Me and Dw allready did one that we shared here on this site.
Boy how soon we forget! Anyone! do we still have that post?
Anyways we are doing another one here real soon. As far as the last report the sample came back CLEAN!

Hth
Cary Gld!



Actually I think that between us me & Cary had 5 seperate samples analysed. I certainly had it done 3 times, all CBW's from Dan at aquatic foods.
All tests done by the Univ. Georgia vet path dept who specialize in fish diseases.
All tests produced the same results....
NO parasites of any desription. Plenty of bacteria, but nothing that could be identified as harmful.

Also, CBW's are a tubificid worm & related to tubifex so the research Dennis referred to is not totally irrelevant.

It matters where you get them from, so get them from a proven clean source ( again , I recommend Dan, as we already know that answers to how his are farmed)

It matters that you keep them clean & well rinsed at home also.

:)

David

http://wilddiscus.com

[bettatalk]

Hi everyone.

Faith here, I just signed up to this forum to share some thoughts about cbw. I host bettatalk.com the largest betta site worldwide. I am preparing one of the most indepth article about cbw and doing research. talked to many people in the process and have new thoughts and theory linking cbw to fish death to share with you all.

I now strongly believe that in deed cbw and diseases are linked. All of you have noticed it, polls on my site have confirmed it, my own observations have, too. But i think you are all looking in the wrong direction. You are mainly worried about hex. CbW have been tested on and off for parasites and have not been found to be specifically proned to carrying them.

I do not believe that hex is what is killing your fish. In deed we in the betta hobby community have experienced THE SAME disastrous effect when feeding cbw for any extended period of time. My new research indicates that there are two potential problems with cbw (and no, Hex is not one of them ;) ).

1)- pesticides. This is a possibility. Pesticides could be injested in large quantities in cbw. Cbw have a 80% water content. There are mostly a digestive system and some muscles. Inside the digestive tract can be stored a number of potentially very ddngerous things. One of which is a high level of pesticides. ingested by fish, it could poison the fish enough to lower their immune system and leave them wide open for EVERYTHING else resident in your water.

2)- now meet your public enemy #1, one hell of a disease that noone talks about but remains THE MOST WIDE SPREAD AQUARIUM DISEASE. Meet Mycobacteriosis, #1 killer of fish: bettas, rainbow fish and I am sure, Discus alike.

Here is the problem with Mycobacteriosis: It is incurable, infectuous and fatal snd almost impossible to diagnosize. It can stay dormant for up to 6 months and then pop up and kill your fish at the rate of 10 a day until none is left.

CBW live in ponds. MycoB lives in ponds. CBW live in the mud. So does MycoB. Daphnias have been founds to carry MycoB because they too live in ponds. Cbw could also carry it. How? By injesting pond mud and pond water. Cbw could then be simple TAXIS: MycoB is in the digestive tract, does not hurt the worm, but the worm then gets eaten by fish. Best way to spread MycoB? Ingestion (get my drift?). Fish eats worms, fish ingests mycobacteriosis and fish gets contaminated.

What happens next? MycoB lives dormant until fish is stressed (poor water quality, temp flux, fighting in community tank, overcrowding, rough handling, shipping etc...). Then immune system of fish lowers, MycoB blossom. What does it do? It forms scysts all over the fish internal organs SO YOU CANNOT SEE IT. It attacks the tissues until organs starts failing and fish dies promtly. Only a professional autospy of dying fish can reveal the infection. Most of you don't know where to send fish or have the funds to, so you never know what REALLY killed your fish.

Affected fish will exhibit A LARGE NUMBER OF SYMPTOMS: including but not limited to: wasting away (thinness of the fish which makes you think it has internal parasites - but it doesn't), pop-eye (eye ulcer), dropsy( kidney failure), skin lesion (dark colored), clamped fins, and usually sudden high death rate in your tanks that no medication seem to be able to stop.

RINGS ANY BELLS?

If you have had any of above, then all these seemingly different external symptoms all came from one SAME disease: Piscine tuberculosis (aka Fish TB or Mycobacteriosis).

If it can be carried by worms (and believe me it can) then your fish are next.

Most of all this is the only fish disease that is TRANSMISSABLE TO HUMANS. (yikes! Guess you did not want to hear this part).

It is imperative if you believe you might have it in your fishrooms that you WASH YOUR HANDS with antibacterial soap each time you handle fish/tanks and that you wear gloves to handle sick tanks/fish and that you NEVER EVER touch water or fish if you have any cuts or open sores on our skin. MycoB does not like our body's higher temps so it usually prefers to infect the skin surface only (which is cooler) but it is a nasty infection that only Ampicilin seem to be able to clear. Most doctors you will see will be clueless about it too :((. A friend of mine who breeds got it once. Was hard to get rid of it.


So beware!!


Now the question we all have on our minds: HAVE CBW EVER BEEN TESTED FOR MYCOB? No. Why? Because worm farms do not test (I asked) for it and I don't think anyone else has ever linked the two together until me (now). I am searching to find if by chance someone out there did do the testing and even still one testing could show negative but not mean that all cbw are not carriers. After talking to cbw expert, he concurred that there is no reason why they could not ingest some MycoB is some was present in the pond's mud. So there you go.

I am still trying to find plates to test for this bacteria and condust a real test to have irrefutable proof in hand.

HOW I CAME WITH MY CONCLUSION: A friend of mine had a bad outbreak in his fishroom and lost ENTIRE spawns of almost grown up fish. This is not a very common occurence. I was fortunate enough to know someone who knew a fish pathologist who agreed to test 4 of the sick bettas. He is a worldwide expert. Results came back, Guess what? Mycobacteriosis. I talked to several more breeders who had same phenomenon, ALL of them were feeding live worms: The only common denominator. All had had this type of outbreaks before, some stopped feeding cbw and it never showed up again. few years later they decide to feed cbw again and within few months (remember that this disease can stay dormant for up to 6 months, it is a very slow growing bacteria), a new outbreak kills everything in sight !!!

So I believe my new theory is well worth exploring and taking into consideration.

I hope this help you out. Before I go a few words of advice if you believe you might have MycoB in your fishroom:

1)- treat all fish - healthy and sick alike with Kanacyn (the only medication that sometimes helps - otherwise disease is fatal and with no cure). Kanacyn may not help but if there is a slight chance it might, it is worth trying, no?

2)- immediately remove any fish that look suspicious from tanks. Why? Because they die very fast and may look kinda OK one day and very much dead the next morning. Otherfish will pick at the eyes and guts (favorite areas for MycoB to live) and become infected by ingestion. SO YOU MUST PREVENT CANIBALISM AT ALL COSTS.

3)- Get special bleach (for hospital) listing mycobaceriosis effectiveness on the label (there are out there) mix it exactely as indicated on label (otherwise it won't work). This is one disease that is very hard to get rid of andf you will have to bleach everything all the time.

4)_ count on it to haunt your fishroom for months (or years)afterwards so remain diligent and inspect all yoru tanks DAILY for suspect fish. Keep bleaching stuff regularly.

5) MycoB can also be passed from parents to fry, so beware!

For more details you can check my website when the article comes out (maybe in a couple weeks or so - maybe more LOL).

www.bettatalk.com

I hope I was helpful, feel free to pass this info if you so desire. Not sure if I will have the time to come back here but I'll try.

(PS: sorry for any typos or spelling mishaps, english is my second language and I'm in a rush)

FAITH

[Johnlee]

Hum Betta Talk
Intresting I must say.
Where's the Data? What background do you have?
I see a lot of my friends, I believes, coulds, it cans, ifs and so on.

"I was fortunate enough to know someone who knew a fish pathologist who agreed to test 4 of the sick bettas. He is a worldwide expert. Results came back"

Show us the data.

"pesticides. This is a possibility. Pesticides could be injested in large quantities in cbw. Cbw have a 80% water content. There are mostly a digestive system and some muscles. Inside the digestive tract can be stored a number of potentially very ddngerous things. One of which is a high level of pesticides. ingested by fish, it could poison the fish enough to lower their immune system and leave them wide open for EVERYTHING else resident in your water".

You confirmed that the blackworm farmers use pesticides?

"A friend of mine who breeds got it once. Was hard to get rid of it."

Are you saying your friend became sick from blackworms?

I believe the majority of this post is irresponsible.
That's my opinion

johnlee

Here we go again, ;D

[brewmaster15]

HI FAITH,
Welcome to Simplydiscus.

Interesting point of views you have. I have to point out some problems with your arguements though.

Blackworms and Pesticides. Blackworms do not tolerate pesticides well, so it is unlikely they will bio-accumulate them. California blackworms are actually used as a bio-indicator, and used in toxicology studies. Most pesticides that would be used in a crop would have a very negative effect on blackworm hatcheries if they were present. That said , pesticides are one of the most characterized chemicals out there, and are easily detected by labs with HPLC .It should be easy to rule that one out if you think it is a possibility. Keep in mind , you assume that all blackworms come from pesticide polluted rivers and ponds? Thats a big assumption without any evidence.

The second point, blackworms and TB. I have seen estimates that placed between 25-75% of all tropical fish from LFS as carriers of/infected by TB.. Suffice it to say this bacteria is very common everywhere now.

some info on marine TB...
http://edcp.org/edcp/factsheets/mycobacterium.html

The probelm with your idea here is an outbreak of TB doesn't affect all fish like you stated here...

HOW I CAME WITH MY CONCLUSION: A friend of mine had a bad outbreak in his fishroom and lost ENTIRE spawns of almost grown up fish. This is not a very common occurence. I was fortunate enough to know someone who knew a fish pathologist who agreed to test 4 of the sick bettas. He is a worldwide expert. Results came back, Guess what? Mycobacteriosis. I talked to several more breeders who had same phenomenon, ALL of them were feeding live worms: The only common denominator. All had had this type of outbreaks before, some stopped feeding cbw and it never showed up again. few years later they decide to feed cbw again and within few months (remember that this disease can stay dormant for up to 6 months, it is a very slow growing bacteria), a new outbreak kills everything in sight !!!

An observation on TB and Bettas.. And I am by no means an expert on them, but I believe you generally keep and breed bettas under conditions that are far different than discus..we tend to change large amounts of water daily.. bacterias like TB might be more prone to do as you described in tanks with very little water changes, as the bacteria would reproduce without population attrition by water changes.
.
Many fish will successfully contain this infection for years. and outbreaks in fish like discus, have symptoms where lesion often form on the body, and often times, dissections will reveil granulomas on the internal organs where the bacteria has been encysted.

within few months (remember that this disease can stay dormant for up to 6 months, it is a very slow growing bacteria), a new outbreak kills everything in sight !!!
-This is not accurate. TB does not necessarily kill everything in site. Many fish can survive it and do so as carriers. probably much like Humans with other TB's can carry it for years.

That said, I do not think that your assumption here are accurate. Thats pretty much as circumstantial evidence as you can get.You have not mentioned anything about the sources of these blackworms that were fed. No tests on said were done, and TB is testable. Who was the world expert , and is there a reason why the blackworms could not be tested by them?

Is it possible some are mistaking Tubiflex for blackworms?

some additional notes...


)- treat all fish - healthy and sick alike with Kanacyn (the only medication that sometimes helps - otherwise disease is fatal and with no cure). Kanacyn may not help but if there is a slight chance it might, it is worth trying, no?
How would you know if the med worked? The fish could be a carrier, with bacteria encysted. ALL fish with TB should be destroyed, IMO, or a year latter you might think it was a new outbreak.. ..Just for curiousity... The breeder you know that lost all his fry... when TB was diagnosed what did the breeder do ... Euthanize all his stock, or treat them?

I believe you have some things that are worth looking into, but I think You need to better understand all the parameters involved here. The link you are trying to make on pesticide is completely unfounded, and easy to prove either way if you are interested.,
The link on TB...Its equally possible that this bacteria is present on aquarium plants, in other companion fish, in imported discus that are raised with River water (it does happen). It could be raw fish , and shrimp that discus hobbyists/breeders feed as part of their beefheart recipes, It could be in frozen foods as a dormant spore. (I have never one food that said it guaranteed its processing eliminated all pathogens)
By all means please continue to evaluate Blackworms and diseases, Feeding live anything has its risks, but there needs to be a better determination of what those risks are, IMO, Then speculation and hypotheticals before they can be really applied to the hobby.

take care,
al

[Johnlee]

Al,
Very well stated !!!

johnlee

[NickK]

When I imported my fish earlier this year, I found out many Asian breeders feed tubifex worms (not CBW). If they are so nasty, why do they seem to have the best, biggest, show winning discus on the planet? Do you think they deal with these problems as much as this board's members do? I know these are open-ended thoughts, but I am just thinking out loud.

Plus, Wednesday morning I am receiving my first CBW order from Dan.

Faith's post scared the ba-gee-beez out of me. I was ready to cancel my order until Brew's post calmed me down!!!

Nick

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Really!


How dare You come here Betta Man And tell us we know Nothing about Tb + CBW's were not just some little boys and girls playing with Discus. we know more then You think How dare you talk down on us?

How Dare You come Here and say Are Doctors do not know what they are Doing? I'll have You know he is a top doctor who cured and saved the salomon Farms in the US back in the early 80s

To me it sounds like You betta boys are importing to many new bettas and thats were Your problem lies.

I'll also have You know I have a Betta thats 8 years old I never change his water and he allways eats cbws

Do not get me wrong Your post is good but the way You worded it is for the birds. You sound like a little old man who knows not how to use VCR And thinks he knows the world and all about it!

I say show Me the money or put it in writeing Don't come here talking about crap you think or heard.

Cary Gld!


http://www.med.sc.edu:85/fox/mycobacteria.htm

[Johnlee]

Nick
Where do most of the Bettas in the world come from?
Indo Asia, Malaysia, Singapore and most important
Thailand. Home to most of the wild Tubifex in the world
Guess what they feed their stock that they ship to the US.
No Blackworm farms there !

johnlee

[NickK]

Johnlee,
You are missing my point. There always is an active debate here at SimplyCBW.com as to whether or not CBWs are vectors for pathogens. However, everyone here seems to agree that Tubifex is much worse than CBW. If that is true, I wonder if the top Asian breeders deal with disease and parasite problems that much more than US hobbyists/breeders who feed CBW (since many of them feed tubifex). Does that make more sense?

Where is Sly? Are parasites and worms more of a problem in Singapore and Malaysia?

Nick

[Johnlee]

Sorry Nick,
Your point is well taken.
I was just referring to her statements about her friends bettas and the general imported betta population in
the US.
It is a great idea to receive some Asian input
about Tubifex.

johnlee

[discus_nw]

Thank you Bettatalk. I, at least, appreciate your efforts to share some of your ideas and conclusions. While it's true cbw's are used as an indicator for toxins, they do indeed collect toxins, such as heavy metals, in their tissues which inturn end up in anything which feeds on them. Hex was never really a concern I had with them. I suspected them as vectors for cestodes and carriers of nematodes, as well as a host of protozoans and bacteria. Others have, too.

The climate around here is that, now at least, cbw's MAY carry certain pathogens. This is alot better than about 18 months ago when it was catigorically stated they DO NOT carry pathogens.

Symptoms you have stated are typical of symptoms I have experienced. I have talked this problem over with other discus people, dwarf cichlid breeders, and killifish breeders. All have had identical problems. These problems disappeared after cbw's were elimenated from the feeding regime and fishrooms were disinfected.

I will be interested in your results from testing you plan.

[brewmaster15]

Mat,

While it's true cbw's are used as an indicator for toxins, they do indeed collect toxins, such as heavy metals, in their tissues which inturn end up in anything which feeds on them heavy metals are not the same thing as pesticides.., actually they are very different. All living things accumulate heavy metals. In this capacity they are no different than frozen bloodworms, beef "heart" , filet of fish, lean chicken breast, or the plankton/fish meal that makes its way into commercial foods.
Luckily this collection of heavy metals, pesticides and whatever else is supposed to bio accumlate is also easily tested at any tox lab. Perhaps the next time someone here does a test on blackworms, they can test for levels of pesticides and heavy metals.
-al
ps.. since we all know what you don't feed Mat ;) :), what are you feeding these days? what do you feed your fry and adults?

[keith_cny]

Faith,
Thanks for your post. I found it very informative. I do have some information you may be very interested in. I also would like to discuss some of your data about mycob in humans. Please email me when convenient.

Thanks,

Keith

[discus_nw]

Al,

I never said heavy metals and pesticides were the same thing. ::) :) Reread the quote you posted. I didn't even infer they were. ;D Heavy metals and pesticdes are both toxins, however. ;)

As for what I feed my discus is of no consequence to this thread or the risks imposed by feeding cbw's. That is really the point of my opposition to the rah rah cbw posts on the forums, the risks imposed by the use of cbw's. As I said, it was catagorically stated on these forums cbw's are perfectly safe food for discus. This is untrue. Even some of the pro cbw users have changed their minds on that. I wish more would post their experiences here for all to read. Why they won't is beyond me. ???

But, to answer your question, I feed both Hikari Bloowworms and Brineshrimp, live brinshrimp, turkey/seafood mix, some beefheart mix, and Tetra Bits. I feed fry ONF I and II as well. :) Are these 100% risk free? I suppose not, but I can confidently say any risk imposed by these foods is insignificant to the risks of feeding cbw's.

[Denny]

Mat

for the most part your fish diet looks sound, But the turkey is one thing I would eliminate if you are concerned about disease transmission. I'll end there for now and not mention all of the antibiotics and other things they are fed. ;)

[fcdiscus]

JMO- but I think CBW are much less hazardous than frozen Bloodworms- Bio-pure or not. Frank 8)

[discus_nw]

many would beg to differ on that Frank. :)

[brewmaster15]

Mat,
In this post...
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=9457;sta rt=45;boardseen=1

I use 99% fat free gound turkey breast. You can use it straight or in a mix with or in place of beefheart. I generally mix with several types of sea mollusks, shrimp, and perhaps fish, either salmon or some white meat cold water sea fish.



why do you feel that feeding several types of mollusks , shrimp, and salmon, and other sea fish is safe compared to blackworms? do you think that cestodes , worms, and other internal parasites are specific for salt over fresh water? so if you feed the salt water creature to fresh , you are safer. It doesn't work that way if you do.

One of many examples...A common fish tapeworm...
Diphyllobothrium latum "The larva that infects people, a "plerocercoid," is frequently encountered in the viscera of freshwater and marine fishes. D. latum is sometimes encountered in the flesh of freshwater fish or fish that are anadromous (migrating from salt water to fresh water for breeding)"
http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap26.html

Mollusks are a known carrier of the cestodes that you are concerned with blackworms possibly carrying. Shrimp are filter feeders that can pick up anything free swimming. Many species of flukes and worms are known to encyste themselves in the flesh of fish, waiting for a another fish to come along and eat them to continue the life cycle( and thats including fish at the market. Take some frozen ON formula 1 and 2 and send it out to lab, and see if its pathogen free as well :)


As for what I feed my discus is of no consequence to this thread or the risks imposed by feeding cbw's. no it directly is not , but it puts the risks into proper perspective, instead of as a polar issue.

Thank you,
al

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Larry,
Brew is right so far. Also I will post for all to read as soon as all the test are complete.

But I can tell You this right Now TB has been ruled OUT!

This test will be taken on clean rinced cbw and cbw right out of the pond.

It will also be on 3 month old Discus fry that only ate at CBW
And a few 3 year old discus that ate cbw and other foods.

Till then lets just wait and see OK?

HTH
Cary Gld

[discus_nw]

Al,

My opposition to feeding cbw's has been the insistance of a few that cbw's cannot transmit pathogen caused diseases by being secondary or primary hosts of such agents.

Overwhelming testimonies by many very experienced breeders of numerous fish species cannot be denied. Discus, apistoes, killies and now betta breeders have spoken out.

As far as what I feed my discus, it must be coincedental that I experience no health problems that cbw users do, including yourself. 99% of my disease problems came from fish I purchased from breeders feeding cbw's. The risks of feeding a seafood mix pales compared to feeding live blackworms.

:) ;) ;D :) ;) ;D

[brewmaster15]

Mat,
Your Killing me Here! :)

my opposition to feeding cbw's has been the insistance of a few that cbw's cannot transmit pathogen caused diseases by being secondary or primary hosts of such agents.

-actually what has been said repeatly is that They have not been showed to carry the pathogens you speculate they have. You have been asked to repeatedly show evidence of the contrary and have not.


Overwhelming testimonies by many very experienced breeders of numerous fish species cannot be denied. Discus, apistoes, killies and now betta breeders have spoken out.
where did this occur? where are the details , and controls for all these overwhelming testimonies? Funny how you neglect all the ones That do use them and have no problems. They must not be experienced enough for you ?

As far as what I feed my discus, it must be coincedental that I experience no health problems that cbw users do, including yourself It must be coincidental that I feed blackworms and My fish are all doing jim dandy fine too. :)I have no fish health problems.

The risks of feeding a seafood mix pales compared to feeding live blackworms.
Thats a good one! I Love it. It doesn't fit ...so ignore it. I give you a scientifically proven link between a food you are feeding and diseases you are worried about and you brush it off as not relevent, but continue to preach the evils of blackworms without any scientific proof.

Evidence Mat.. just comeup with some hard evidence. Not I fed em and my fish died or I bought fish that were fed them and they died.... so they are the cause. Get some real stuff, fact not fiction. Hypothetically they can carry pathogens....Hypothetically so can anything. Prove it, or show where someone has.

The offer to help you with an experiment still stands. My point in this discussion is not to prove that Blackworms are clean and safe. Its to show that you haven't given any evidence they aren't. Even the study that was to be , didn't pan out. whereas others like Cary and dave webber have sent samples out that came back negative for pathogens.

I've said it before, feeding anything live has its risks, the key is to determine them and weigh the benefits. You need to determine those risks, and you haven't yet. Its that simple.

We can all go back and forth ad infinitum here over this. Keep looking Mat, and I'm sure some day you'll find something.
-al

This test will be taken on clean rinced cbw and cbw right out of the pond.

It will also be on 3 month old Discus fry that only ate at CBW
And a few 3 year old discus that ate cbw and other foods.

Till then lets just wait and see OK?


Id just like to say thanks to Cary for ONCE AGAIN stepping up to the plate.
NOT that you need to bro....The UNEQUALED QUALITY and HEALTH of your fish speak's VOLUMES all on its own!
Anyways....thanks.

Tony

[Rob R.]

Thou shall keep thy mouth shut. Why? It's just better that way. ;D

This thread is making me laugh....I dont think this is what Dennis wanted to happen when he started this thread...
Yes there are many people that feed black worms and many that don't......what gets me is why most people want to give excuses like Rob R. Thats the biggest pile of Sh%@ I've read yet........I sure would like to know about the SUCCESSFUL BREEDERS that he is talking about....This web site has many of the most successful breeders in the country posting on it and many feed blackworms. It seems like many people want to talk about "they know someone that" has or has not had problems with blackworms. If you want to tell me your reason why you do or dont feed them thats fine but dont give me this crap about I do or dont because a friend or breeder told me this. Give me personal facts that you have obtained. If you dont have you own personal facts I really dont care to hear what you have to say......Personally Yes I use blackworms and have never had any problems. I know people like Dennis do not...But I respect Dennis enough to listen to his reasons why....Dosent mean I will every change my mind but I will at least listen to him because I know Dennis like myself have been in the aquarium hobby for many years(30 plus) and has gathered his reason's why with his own personal experences

Randy

[brewmaster15]

Rob,
I won't address the majority of your posts comments except to ask you exactly what you feel these blackworms actually carry that is so bad?

from you on a previous post...
Do you feed blackworms to your fish? If so, that would be the first thing I would suspect. When I fed BW to my fish I had problems every few months with Hex and my fish had INCURABLE gill flukes. Now that I don't feed BW I no longer have these problems. HTH
so they carry flukes and hex... that should be easy enough to prove...wonder why its never been shown?

I have seen some breeders say they don't feed blackworms, thats true, but you are leaving out half the argument. Those Breeders you refer to don't recommend feeding anything live. But like so many out there, you overlook that part of in the CBW debates. Its not an issue of blackworms or not...its an issue of live food or not.


Just as an informational point of view I quote you here...

I feed earthworms everyday. Just throw them in whole, it gives the fish good exercise. I wouldn't use them if they come from an area known for pesticide use. If they are from your own yard and you don't use chemicals then you should be fine. I personally buy mine at the bait shop.. You feed live food everyday...worms from baitshop and are worried about disease from CBW. If I were you I'd watch for capillaria, and who knows what else.

If you are going to use the advise of someone in a discussion, state it a whole, not selectively. ask any breeder outthere that has a probelm with blackworms, and most will extend that advise to feeding anything live.

-al

[fcdiscus]

Once again the masked Breeders Appear! Damn, lighten up Rob! Frank ;)

[Rob R.]

Thou shall keep thy mouth shut. ;)

[brewmaster15]

Rob,
I won't address the majority of your posts comments except to ask you exactly what you feel these blackworms actually carry that is so bad?

from you on a previous post...
Do you feed blackworms to your fish? If so, that would be the first thing I would suspect. When I fed BW to my fish I had problems every few months with Hex and my fish had INCURABLE gill flukes. Now that I don't feed BW I no longer have these problems. HTH
so they carry flukes and hex... that should be easy enough to prove...wonder why its never been shown?

I have seen some breeders say they don't feed blackworms, thats true, but you are leaving out half the argument. Those Breeders you refer to don't recommend feeding anything live. But like so many out there, you overlook that part of in the CBW debates. Its not an issue of blackworms or not...its an issue of live food or not.


Just as an informational point of view I quote you here...

I feed earthworms everyday. Just throw them in whole, it gives the fish good exercise. I wouldn't use them if they come from an area known for pesticide use. If they are from your own yard and you don't use chemicals then you should be fine. I personally buy mine at the bait shop.. You feed live food everyday...worms from baitshop and are worried about disease from CBW. If I were you I'd watch for capillaria, and who knows what else.

If you are going to use the advise of someone in a discussion, state it a whole, not selectively. ask any breeder outthere that has a probelm with blackworms, and most will extend that advise to feeding anything live.

-al

[brewmaster15]

I'm just sick of seeing people being attacked for sharing their opinion and experience.

People don't get attacked on this site for sharing an opinion, they do get a heated response though when someone states their opinion as fact, can't back it up with proof, and tries to discredit others here based on the age and years in the hobby as compared to other Professionals not named, that are in the business of selling to hobbyists with only minor interaction with those customers.

If you are going to keep falling back on these breeders, then name them, and quote them. Give the members of this forum that information instead expecting them to blindly believe you in this discussion.

-al

Rob, Yes I have read a few books in my years of keeping fish......I find that most books are out dated with the info long before they hit the press....Thats why web pages like this one are so popular...Please list the books you are talking about...and them maybe we can discuss your issues...
I cant think of an American breeder that has written a book in the last 10 years that has any "ground breaking" info in it.....................

Randy

[Rob R.]

Discus are good ;)

[brewmaster15]

Thats better Rob. Thats an acceptible opinion based on your experiences and observations, and was worded well. I do not agree with all your reasoning as I am used to looking at hard data, but I can respect your opinions on blackworms and links to disease you have noted as possible in your personal experiences.

Thank you.
-al

ps..
I am an educated man and am familiar with the scientific process. I wouldn't get on a worldwide forum and make statements I wasn't sure about. I share that background with you as well.

Rob, if your last post would of been your first post I would of respected your opinions more....I am more and happy to discuss your reasons to why someone does or does not believe in a certain aspect of this hobby...But when you start posting statements regarding the most successful breeders do or dont I will call you on it everytime.....You can feed me your personal feelings and experence but dont feed me your BS

Randy

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

I wasn't going to make any further posts on this, but here goes.
My exsperiences with feeding cbw is about the same as Robs, more problems with flukes and ocassional sick fish for no apparent reason and more fish lost.
I don't have these problems not feeding the cbw.
So in my mind the problems were caused by the worms, but can I prove this, no I can't. But I don't have to bang my head on the wall to know it hurts.
If you don't feel you have any problems feeding cbw, that is fine be me, feed em.
But why oh why can we disagree on every thing else, hey I don't keep any tanks over 83 degrees some would disagree and say hey you need to keep your fry warmer, or we can disagree on medical treatments, I like fluke tabs, you say no they are bad you should use formalin.
And the conversation stays in a civile manner we just have our deferences of opinions, but you mention the word cbw and the temperments gets brutal.
Dennis
end of subject for me

Well said Dennis, That is why I waited till like page 3 to make my post.....We have had this discussion about a dozen times about CBW's on this web page and nothing is ever solved....I just had to jump on and state my fellings when statements are made like the one Rob made about ALL SUCCESSFUL BREEDERS in this country advise against feeding blackwoms....All hearsay and all BS......
There are many newbie's that read these post and are trying to learn about this hobby and I think we all want them to learn by our experiences over the years and to let them make there own decisions on whether to feed blackworms or what temp to keep the water,or lights on or off during breeding and so many other questions that seem to arrise over and over again....I dont want someone making a decission(including me) over what to do because of a false statement made by someone...



Randy

[Rob R.]

You're right, I didn't word my first post well. I'm not trying to point fingers and say "Well that guy and this guy don't use them". What I was trying to say is that most of the people that I PERSONALLY look up to in this hobby, the people who's opinion that I PERSONALLY hold in high regard don't use them. These are friends or people I've done business with and talked to on a personal level. I shouldn't have worded it 'MOST SUCCESSFUL BREEDERS'---my mistake.

When it comes down to it, if you use blackworms and have good results-Great. You would probably be a fool to QUIT using them if that was the case. If it ain't broke-don't fix it. I did have problems, as have many of my colleagues. I don't preach at people about it, but I get a little pi$$ed when I see people receive 'heated responses' ;) for trying to share. That's really the only reason I mentioned anything. There is no reason for anyone to get offended when there is a difference of opinion--that is exactly that which makes us unique individuals. In fact, I like a good debate. I view it as a positive thing (as long as no one gets their feelings hurt).

Brewmaster,
I know you are an educated man and I value your opinion. I think this is the only subject that I've ever disagreed with you on.

Rob well said also.....I understand what you mean about your circle of friends and by standing by their findings and statements......Dont sweat the small stuff we have all said things here that we wished we hadnt.....I know I have several times ;) ;)

I think we have just about worn this debate out...for now.... HEE HEE HEE................WHATS NEXT!!!!!!!!!!



Randy

[Rob R.]

DISCUS RULE

[fcdiscus]

See how much better you feel when you do lighten up a bit! Frank 8)

[discus_nw]

Al :o,

;D ;D ;D ;D

I'm killing you ? ??? ??? ???

This isn't about getting to the truth about cbw's, Al. At first I thought it was about you having to be right. Now, I think it's about you wanting me to be wrong. ;D

Explain the differemce between being attacked and a heated response. Why are the heated attacks an attempt to make everyone disagreeing with your line of thinking look small and stupid?

I can name 3 professional breeders who are pioneers of the discus world who have stated the dangers of blackworms:

1) Dick Au at the Greater Portland Aquarium Society's annual auction and fish show. I was there sitting at the same table as Jeff Doty, Dennis Hardenburger, and several other discus people who used to frequent the forums.

2) Jim Quarels in a book he wrote.

3) Jack Wattley/Gabe Posada of Wattley Discus.

Rob was correct in stating most successful breeders do not participate on the forums. We had Gabe Posada here for awhile. He left. I don't know if he told anyone else why, but he did me. He was sick of being challenged by know it alls trying to make a name for themselves. Another thing is that of the few remaining breeders posting here, some are importing more than they have been breeding the last couple of years.

Rob was correct in his three reasons why novices love cbw's and professional breeders don't.

I have no intention of ever conducting a cbw experiment. I don't want them in my tanks. I started feeding tubifex in 1969. Blackworms shortly thereafter. Both were collected from clean trout waters having trout hatcheries on them. I know the problems I have had with them. I have stated this time and again. These problems left when I quit feeding them and cleaned up the fish that didn't die. I tried them again years later. Same problems. Get rid of the worms, no problems. Then, while living back in Pa. in the mid-90's for a couple of years, I let some local "discus expert" talk me into it yet again. That will be the last time I will ever listen to anyone expounding on the benefits of the filthy cbw.

I have also provided you with 2 links in past discussions where scientists provided evidence of diseases carried by cbw's. I also was told by a man who holds a PhD. in microbiology at a laboratory I worked at to stay away from blackworms as a fish food because of the diseases that they are capable of transmitting.

This is not an issue of live foods in general, either. It has always been about cbw's and their ability to transmit diseases. It has been you that has tried to deflect the attention away from cbw's and onto other foods. Everything in my seafood mix can be put on my table for dinner tonight, as it all was intended for human consumption. Care to chow down on a bowl of cbw's? You may even cook them if you like ;) :D.

Too many have twisted the words of others to fit their arguement. I have noticed, though, that it is the pro cbw crowd that seem to have the heat in their words. Me, I'm smiling. I am trying to convince no one. I, like Rob, care not what anyone feeds their fish. I have stated that on every discussion we ever had. Besides, I gain nothing either way.

This is getting long, so I will add a couple questions for some to ponder. Why is flube being purchased by the kilo by some people? Why are they needing to treat with prazi every 6 months? Why are there so many gill flukes? What about protozoa outbreaks causing plague like symptoms a common topic?

Remember, keep it civil. This is the friendly forum. Right Carol ;)

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Thou shall Not worship False Discus Breeders. Who don't Even breed discus anymore.

Thou shall not believe false statments made by sideKicks or TV repair men.

Thou shall not read to many old books because most of it is crapola.

Thou shall not call a malaysian PB a Panda.

Thou shall not keep brain washing his followers when most of whats writen has been proven wrong.

Thou Shall not call every disease the Plague And claim no cure

Thou shall try a new Blkworm source cause the one You had most of sucked.

Thou don'T Know Sheet cause his teacher is just a pet!

NOW IF YOU WOULD OF SAID YOU TALKE TO JACK I would still only believe half.

Takecare
Newbe Boy :-*

[discus_nw]

Cary,

But I have talked with you. Don't worry, I won't give you up. ;)

Mat ;D

ps - It doesn't matter how old a book is - the truth will always be the truth. If a cbw could carry a disease in the 60's, they can now.

There aren't very many successful breeders breeding anymore in this country... that is the truth... why would they when they could get cheap fish from Asia and sell without much hazzel and make a higher profit margin..... ;) ;)

THOU SHALL PUT AN END TO THIS INSANITY AND FEED WHAT YOU LIKE TO YOUR DISCUS!!!
even if it is almond leaf.... I eat bay leaves and I have not been sick in 20 years... there you go... let it go people.... ;D ;D



It doesn't matter how old a book is - the truth will always be the truth.
But... but... what is the truth mat... is the world still flat? ;) ;)

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Hi Larry,
I told You what I thought But I prefer facts first! there were other issues to cheack out first before I made My call.


Cary Gld!


P.S larry thats the problem non of these old guys took any reports
They just imported and blammed the guy with the most fame :-*
Anyways if You 60s guy's do find proff you still cannot touch ME :-*

Mat, I enjoyed you post but Im having alittle problem with the 3 breeders you posted
1. Dick, I dont know but I heard he is a great guy and I am looking to talking to him at this years ACA and find out his reasons
2. Jim, well I am not going to say anything good or bad about him...One week he said one thing and the next week it was the complete opposite. Man he would of loved this thread nobody could argue like him... Jim was one of those guys that spoke about everything in three's....his side, the other persons side, and the real truth side.....lol.....but he is gone so lets let him rest in peace
3, Jack or Gabe...well I have to go back and look at Jacks "old" books and I may be wrong but I only remember reading about him talking about the Asian breeders feeding alot of tubifex worms and that he didnt reccomend them due to the unsanitary conditions that the worms were gathered from in Asia and that was what was printed 10+ years ago.....were not talking about those conditions today in the US with todays CBW's. I spoke to Jack for quite sometime about CBW's and one of the reasons he told me they were not used in his hatchery today was just a cost factor. I could not get him to commit to CBW's one way or the other. Maybe you have in your talks with him. Jack has made his mark in the discus hobby, heck he is to busy playing with his frogs to worry about discus or worms.....
PS: I understand what Gabe told you but Jack told several of us at last years ACA that Gabe was done with any posting on any boards and gave us the reason why and it was not the reason you stated but who knows the real truth but Jack and Gabe I know that really not a issue in this thread but just wanted to state that Jack had stated something totally different then what Gabe told you about his posting.
Other than that there is no sense in stating anything else I know you are just as avid in you dislike in blackworms as I am in useing them........


Randy

[brewmaster15]

Mat,

This isn't about getting to the truth about cbw's, Al. At first I thought it was about you having to be right. Now, I think it's about you wanting me to be wrong.

Explain the differemce between being attacked and a heated response. Why are the heated attacks an attempt to make everyone disagreeing with your line of thinking look small and stupid?
taking this a little personal aren't you. :) I hadn't thought this was about you and I, but about blackworms and the lack of evidence to support your opinions about them.

whats killing me is I know how you post about things people say without proof. and yet you expect everyone here to believe you because you say or so and so says it. I'll repeat for hundreth time what I feel on this topic. I believe that at this point in time there is no hard data showing blackworms are a carrier of diseases. There is definetly no data showing them as intermediate hosts for cestodes. To me , the feeding of anything live is a risk, but the assessment of that risk should be made on hard data, not uncontrolled for obseverations and speculations. Its not a person issue Mat, Its a matter of using facts to make an assessment.
If a study were done that confirmed your theories, I would be the first one to re-evaluate my opinion of blackworms. Same goes for any food. Show me the money mat, show me the test results...show me a western blot, show me a researcher who has determined them to be an intermediate host for a parasite. Show me where these breeders state exactly what they feel blackworms carry and how they came to that conclusion. Thats what this is about to me Mat... its not personal...Its a scientific evaluation of the facts that we have to look at.


This is getting long, so I will add a couple questions for some to ponder. Why is flube being purchased by the kilo by some people? Why are they needing to treat with prazi every 6 months? Why are there so many gill flukes? What about protozoa outbreaks causing plague like symptoms a common topic?

maybe you should ask yourself how the increase numbers of imported discus fits into your set of questions.
I know there are some good overseas breeders but not all are.
How many discus do you think are imported now compared to before the above meds started being purchased in such quantities Think of all those mom and pop discus farms and some of their sources. Think about the recent diseases many imports have caused. Likewise think of the more readily availible access to info on these fish thru these boards, and the increase numbers of people successfully keeping these fish, and I Believe you will have the answer to questions you ask me to ponder here.

The state of discus diseases these days mat is far more reaching than the narrow focus you are putting on with the emphasis on blackworms, IMHO.

take care,
al

[Rob R.]

I LOVE IT!!!! :D :D :D :D
I haven't been called names since I was a little kid ;D ;D

[wildthing]

Cary got it right....." thou shalt NOT..."


What I see on the forums on this subject , as usual, is those that use them & like them have stated where & who did the scientific tests & the results of those tests while those who are religiously against them give no such support to their arguments.

My tests were done by Prof M Mauel ,phd microbiolopgist, at the vet path dept of the University of georgia in Tifton, specialising in fish diseases.
In 3 tests " nothing remarkable was found"
I also talk to Professor Bob Goldstein, one of the greats in the tropical fish world & a phd parasitologist. he will talk to you about somthing called " species specificity", ie: it is very unlikely that a cold water worm living in a cold water fish environment or a clean no-fish one will be able to either aquire or transmit a parasite to a tropical fish

There is a huge difference between what 'CAN' happen & what " DOES" happen when feeding CBW.

CBW 'CAN' be a host for bacterial problems, that does NOT mean they ARE, This depends very much on the source & the way they are kept by the user. Many " bad" bacteria are ubiquitous & could come from any number of things we all regularly put in our tanks ( dirty hands for instance)
I would suggest those that had problems in the past that they attribute to CBW either got them from a bad/dirty source ( as was usual in the bad old days) &/or did not keep them properly once they got them.

My personal experience using them is that I get much bigger more aggressive fish, much bigger spawns & much bigger hatch rates.

My personal experience with BH recipes is that they filthy the tank in no time flat & produce much more unsanitary conditions for the fish to live in, producing smaller fish with lesser appetites, similar with flake food.

In phone conversations with Gabriel he has told me in the past they DO ( or at least have in the not so distant past, on Jack's instructons) use bloodworms sometimes to promote growth & spawning. They import many of their fish these days for the previously mentioned economic reasons.
JQ used CBW's when more recent data changed his mind about them. he was a great one for " do as I say, not as I do" & he got most of his fish from Bing Seto anyway.
If I am not mistaken, the much vaunted top secret study by a famous but un-named university turns out to be about a different tubificid worm.

It also appears to me that only the folks that dogmaticly hate them but can;t quote any actual empirical evidence get bent out of shape with this discussion.

[fcdiscus]

Atta boy Dave! Frank ;D

[Rick_May]

Atta-boy Dave.....From off the top rope!!!!!!

I've had a conversion, in years past I never would think of feeding CBW. Everything I had read always talked about the sure DOOM that would occur the first time a worm hit the tank. After reading this and other forum, and researching, and listening to what the PRO's said I came to the obvious conclusion, I didn't know what I was talking about, and if people who have forgotten more about keeping discus than I know say to use them, then who am I to say they are wrong.

I’ve been feeding CBW for several years and I’ve found the same results as what Dave described. When I drop worms in the tank my fish don’t suddenly keel over or go up in flames, instead they go nuts and attack the worms.

I just gets me, when people go on about how “They would Never” feed CBW and babble Pseudo-Science about impending fire death and destruction. Give it a try before you make up your minds

[NickK]

OK, guys. I just received my first trial order (1/2 lb) of CBW today. My girlfriend washed them clean, and called me at work to tell me how gross they were. A couple of you mention that keeping them clean is important. Can you please elaborate? Can I start feeding them today? Should I wait? Any first time secrets? We received 2 wormkeepers, and they are sitting in the fridge waiting for me.

THanks,
Nick

PS - All of my discus are from the same breeder (Malaysia) and I have had them for 4 months. They are about 7-8 months old. I used Prazi from Bill, but none of them passed any worms. I guess I could do a "personal" evaluation for CBW and tapeworms. Not very scientific, but fun.

[Carol_Roberts]

Rinse them everday in dechlorinated, refrigerated water. Rinse until water is clean. Then feed to discus. I usually have some left from the last batch to finish feeding before I start the new ones, but it won't hurt a bit to feed them the day of arrival - as long as they are thouroughly rinsed. (Gently rinse them, don't beat them to death)

[discus_nw]

Al,

You were given reports last time this was discussed. You simply choose to ignore or deny them. One, in fact, stated blackworms are vectors of cestodes. :)

David,

The secret university was not mentioned by me because Dennis didn't want the lab to be flooded with emails and phone calls. I did that out of respect to him. The test has been gone on for over a year. You yourself said the results may have some relevence because of the commonality of the worms. Why wouldn't it? Whirling disease was one disease linked to the study worms. This confirms other reports that can be found on the internet that has been said to be impossible by some on the forums. The worms were also found to harbor many protozoans.

==========================================

What amazes me is how a select few think that so many people are so incapable of cognitive thinking and deductive reasoning. ;D

==========================================

There seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding on my post to Cary on this thread. To clear up any confusion, he and I have had several lengthy conversations regarding cbw's and diseases and just how safe they are. The post was an inside joke that some misunderstood as an attack. I was not infereing any other comment to him either. :)

[wildthing]

Please tell us the name of the august body not mentioned in this famous study so that I can have my friend at UG speak to them & give me a synopsis of what they have found so far, after all, it has been a year or more and all the people involved in fisheries research know each other & each others research projects , often quite well, & they tend to use detail when they talk to each other. I find it interesting how no-one at U.G or U Miss. or Cornell ( probably the 3 top places in the US if not the world for fisheries research) have heard anything about such a study, which surely would have had to get funding from somewhere, which would then be public information


The common factor between the worms mentioned apart from both being tubificid, is that both can have undesirable bacteria (depending on your source & your hygene) , beyond that there is little connection, they come from totally different sources & are cousins, not siblings.

Cognitive thinking & deductive reasoning both rely on evidence. There have been NO studies or evidence cited by you or anyone here that CBW;s cause the problems you mention, including 'whirling'.

Larry, You did cite Wattley's but that was incorrect, you also cited ol' JQ but that was incorrect, you ( until recently) swore up & down about the study being done...which now turns out to be not quite the reality. Dennis was straight up about his mistake, you tell us you got your info second hand from him but can;t do the same. This kind of incorrect & general statement makes it hard to accept any assertions without some evidence. You still offer none. IMO you have talked yourself into an unsupportable position to try to prop up your unscientific opinion

"whirling" is specificly a disease found in Salmon, again, cold water fish.
In discus the 'whirling ' behaviour is not " whirling " disease as found in salmon, which has been attributed to a virus caused by feeding salmon recycled dead salmon which died after spawning, kinda like mad cow disease .

The unsupported word of a hobbyist or the word of 2 different & very world-eminent scientists & a few other successful breeder/importers hmmmmmmm...... I think I know where I will put my money
:)

It is fine not to feed CBW;s to your fish but it is not fine to BS about them just because of personal dogma. Life is an excercize in risk assessment, so is what we feed our fish.
I don;t know enough to state categorically that there are NEVER any problems from feeding CBW's , in an infinite universe all things are possible, but I do know enough to respect people who have spent 50+ years studying parasites in fish ( Bob Goldstein)

Hi Everyone :wave:

Maybe I should duck down when I'm posting on this one ???

I've only been keeping Discus for maybe a couple years now.... the first ones (lfs bought ) ofcourse either died or was given away after I learned how they should be cared for.... with that said..... yes!!!!!!!! I'm still learning.... so you can take what I'm going to say with a grain of salt... if you so choose ;)

I bought a nice group of youngsters from Cary (Thank You Cary ;D ) and I think I've done a pretty good job on growing them up (I'd pat myself on the back for that ..... but if it weren't for Cary, Simply Discus and CBW's I wouldn't be able to say that ;) )

I've been using CBW's sense I recieved that group of juvies from Cary and to this day I haven't had any problems to speak of..... I did treat them with prazi not long after their arrival and I didn't find any tapeworms or anything else for that matter.
If I remember right the only thing I treated them for was 1 had what I thought was a heater burn and that was treated with salt.

Hell I haven't even had any bouts with flukes in my adults or fry for that matter (knock on wood ;D ) I have the original 8 and "ALL" have been fed heavily on the CBW's and are still thriving and look very healthy and happy to me.....

I know this doesn't mean a hill of beans to most of you non CBW feeding people.... but hey! to each their own...... I say feed what ever makes you and your fish happy ;)

With the results I've gotten in the past year .... I'm not complaining, I'll continue feeding CBW's to all of my Discus ;)

There's going to be some "risk" in "everything" you feed.

just my .02

Beth

[NickK]

April,
Tonight I received my first CBWs. I cannot believe how clean the tanks are after feeding!!! Here is my question: how many should I feed? I remember reading about CBW overfeeding deaths, and obviously I would like to avoid that ;)

Thanks,
Nick

[brewmaster15]

mat,

You were given reports last time this was discussed. You simply choose to ignore or deny them. One, in fact, stated blackworms are vectors of cestodes funny mat...I find no such post when I search.

would you please repost them for the benefit of all the members here trying to figure out where you get your"facts"

heres one that I can post though on the topic of blackworms and cestodes/ diseases. I have posted it before. Its from Dr. Charles Drewes, a respected authority on blackworms...

(ps.. for those who don't know the Cestodes Mat keeps referring to are Tape worms)

its actully kind of funny , talk about ignoring things... This post was made to you....

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=177;star t=0


its a good read for anyone here....

know recently we have been discussing the pros and cons of blackworms as a live food. In teh past I have received literature from a scientist that specializes in Invertebrates, and has written extensively on Blackworm Biology. His Name is Dr.Charles Drewes. If you recall my writings on blackworm culture, I referenced him there. Biological supply laboratories also include his research when they supply live worms.

I recently sent him an email to ask his opinion on the disease aspects we have discussed....

Dear Dr. Drewes,
> I raise a tropical fish, called Discus as a hobby. The
>question has been raised by my fellow hobbyists as to
>whether or not Lumbriculus variegatus can act as an
>intermediate host for Tape worms to be passed then on
>to our fish. Also the question was asked if they could
>possibly ingest eggs of parasitic worms, and gill
>flukes, and then pass them along the Discus. I am also
>a biologist and I have searched the literature and
>found no research to support this.
> May I ask you opinion on this matter? I know from my
>literature searches that you have researched this
>organism extensively.
> Any information you could give me is greatly
>appreciated. Thank you very much.
>
> Sincerely,
>Al Sabetta

Dr. Drewes reply...

Dear Al,
You are correct. There is no published evidence whatsoever that Lumbriculus
is an intermediate host for tapeworms. I suppose that any scavenging
organism, including many fish, could inadvertently ingest tapeworm eggs and
then, through either predation (being eaten) or by defecation, pass them
onto another organism. To avoid that remote possibility, I suppose it
might be prudent to let newly acquired organisms (worms and fish) clear
their gut contents in a separate container, if you don't know what they
have been eating. I continue to glean the Lumbriculus literature but have
found no support for the concern and claim about tapeworms. Thanks very
much for your message and interest.
Charles Drewes
Professor of Zoology and Genetics

I am sharing this information not to prove that blackworms do not carry these diseases, but to show that they have not been proven to carry these diseases. This doesn't prove that they are a safe food, for the time being we will all have to make that decision on our own.


and

I have received a copy of another letter from Dr.Drewes in sponse to another Hobbyists inquiry. heres that letter...

Thanks for your message and questions. I consulted with a professor-colleague here, who is an expert fish parasitologist, and he tells me that parasites ( several species of which certainly do infect fish) DO NOT use any intermediate host ( such as oligochaete worms or any other species) to harbor and transmit the parasite. Instead, one fish can directly infect another fish by releasing the parasite into the water in its feces and then by another fish ingesting the parasite. So, transmission is like Giardia, in respect, and involves only a single host and no intermediate hosts. So, your concerns about Hexamita infection occurring from worms themselves is not warranted. Of course, the water that the worms were in might be a potential concern if it was water that came from infected water. To be " safer " when you feed worms to the fish, you couls rinse and drain the worms several times in distilled water to help flush away any fish feces. I might add, that if the fish feces were consumed by the worms, then I supect that any Hexamita therin would most likely get fully gigested in the worm gut. As I mentioned, there is no evidence of invertebrates being an intermediate host for Hexamita. I verified this information through a search of research publications using the Biological Abstracts data base.
In regard to your questions about blackworms and tubifex worms...they are both oligochaete worms, but they are quite different in terms of taxonomy, ecolgy, and biology. Tubifex is most abundant in habitats where there is silty mud and organic and thermal pollution. Lumbriculus (blackworms) orefer more pristine habitats. Blood Worms are insect larvae. See http://www.dph.nl/sub-article/cat-01/bloodworms.shtml <http://www.dph.nl/sub-article/cat-01/bloodworms.shtml>

I hope this answers your questions and clarifies things a little. Feel free to share this informatin with your colleagues. Charles Drewes Professor of Zoology and Genetics

HTH,
al



Believe what you will Mat, its your right.
I for one will believe what the research on this topic has indicated.

Take care,
al

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Nickk:
It depends on the size of your discus. Watch their bellies. Put a pinch in for a couple of discus - maybe a half a teaspoon for a tank of 6 medium sized juveniles. Be cautious at first as they will eat them until they are all gone.

[NickK]

Thanks, Carol. How many times a day can I feed these? How long should I wait in between feedings?

Nick

[Carol_Roberts]

I'd feed them black worms once or twice a day. Feed flakes or pellets in the morning when they are hungriest - then black worms later in the day. I usually wait at least 2 hours between feeding - like I said . . . watch their bellies - and ignore the begging.

My kitchen discus recognize the blackworm box when I take it out of the fridge. You should see their eyes light up.

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Hello everyone,

Tonight I thought I'd post again just to clear a few things up. Yesterday I was short on time and I left you with some of my favorite poems. I do not even know why I should explain. But after some of the attacks I feel I should. I am not a biologist by degree but I can hang pretty damn close when it comes to discus, mammals, and reptiles as far as care and health goes. So even though I am not highly educated, which most of you can see that with my grammar, I feel that I am very intelligent and have been told by many others that I have what it takes to succeed.

To get to the point...some of you may think that I was a little to hard on Faith. And I will openly admit that I was. But what everyone did not see is what went on behind the scenes. You see, Faith had E-mailed me and she asked me about blackworms. She was looking for info on bacterial infections, protozones, and her biggest concern-TB in fish. Now, I do not know Faith, and I have not spoken to her before this but I did not mind helping her. Anyway, I have 10 select people that I discuss disease and diagnostics with. Dan at Aquatic Food would be one and another is Larry mat. I have many, many diagnostic reports on discus. I have been breeding and playing with them for 17 years now. Not to sound to arrogant but I have had tropical fish since I was 8 years old. And I have always had a passion for them and how they worked! Basically I taught myself from the school of hard knocks and the great thing about me is that I shared it with everyone. I have tons of diagnostic reports from a highly respected veterinarian that Dave Webber mentioned in his post. I have many more on vibro cholera, rare protozones-like cryptocaryon, and over 24 more full bacterial reports. I also have them on TB in fish all the way down to aeromonas and pseudomonas. I also have a few other reports on viral infections. My reasons for having these reports are not because of the CB worm. It was because I was hard headed early on when it came to QT. You see...before I started selling to the public, about 5 years ago, I always importing to collect enough stock so I could breed my own fish to eventually resell. Of course we all know that this cannot be entirely done through breeding and a certain portion of imports is necessary. Plain and simple the fish that were being tested were mostly imports or fish of my own that I broke QT on. I became very obsessed in knowing all of the diseases and especially the not so common ones. I even bought fish from customers, that purchased their fish from other breeders. In turn, I incurred the shipping and diagnostic costs. I can tell you all right now I know what is going on in Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, and Vietnam, etc. I know who the top sellers are in these countries and who is selling to the US down to what they feed their fish. Now I want you all to know that 50% of these fish are sold to forum users. And I can tell you right now none of them use any kind of worms. The fact is and I have it here in writing The TB issue lies in the feeding of prawn eggs. and over 80% of the fish shipped here have old granuloma scars. These granuloma cycst's can be dated back when a Tb or other problem occured by the Calcium build up around the infection. bin other words 90% of all fish fight this off and live long normal lifes. Also another thing I would like to share is We do not see Hexamita in our Discus and am not just talking about Me but Everyone with Discus. What We are seeing is Spironucleus and that is in writeing.

Well, to get to my point, Faith pissed me off. I kindly gathered all of this info for her and wasted 2 1/2 hours of my day. I put my family and my clients on hold to only see that she had posted here and she had her mind made up. Well, hell yeah I was pissed! Another days work down the drain.

Somehow it seems I always learn from this. Some people take it one way. Some people take it another way. So Rob, I agree with you and your symbolic attacks on me. Like what they say in my neighborhood-Rob was just dipping in the Koolaid and didn't know what flavor we were drinking! Also, I was not calling you names and I did sign my name as newbie boy because of the way you portrayed me in your post. Again, I might not have great grammar but I am a very smart man. I play a good game of hard ball and I know My schitt And still learning when it comes to discus.
You see Am more of a Hobby seller and like to breed My own. I do not know if You saw My last list of 1" fry but they were all breed and sold By Me in the good old US.
FRY 1" $10
white butterflies
green leopard snakes
gold diamonds
rose reds
red spotted green X snow
Gold diamond X snow
gold diamond X melon
Melon X tangarine
PB snakes
Red pbs
red royal blues
Blue fine line snakes

Also IMO the breeders that do not post! just don't give a dam or just don't Know Or they have something to hide. I also think it has alot to do with the type of discus they sell to their cilaints. We See many pics of there discus Daily sold for Big $ that are nothing more then culls. Me I'll allways be here never hideing and allways shareing My All with everyone and standing up for what I believe.
***
Now lets move on to CBWs. I have used Dan's worms for over 10 years now. And like I stated above I have never had problems with my own private breeding stock. IME none of my clients had problems either. However there always seemed to be some problems when imported fish were sold. IMO I feel all newbies should stop the feeding of CBWs until they understand and learn the discus instead of blamming the worm like so many others are doing. I highly believe that most of the fish that these newbies are buying, and feeding CBWs too, are already diseased and have problems just waiting to occure.

In a last note I will state: IMO CBWs are not 100% safe. unless You know what Your doing. it is very important that You Try to obtain them from the cleanest source possible. not from trout farms or chicken coops. The most important thing I can recommend is you must clean them thoroughly for days non stop to be 100% sure like us.

Here's My email from faith,

Hello,

Dan of Aquatic Foods referred me to you. I am preparing one of the most comprehensive articles about blackworms to be published on the web. It will appear in the E-Magazine on www.bettatalk.com.

I recently conducted an in depth interview with Dan (Aquatic Foods). I also conducted several other interviews with experts in blackworm biology and behavior, bacteriologists, etc...

I was told you have conducted some tests regarding blackworms and was hoping you might be willing to share their results so that the article be as informative and accurate as possible.

Also please let me know if you have tested the cbw for:

1)- pesticide ingested
2)- bacteria
3)- most importantly (the focus of my article) MYCOBACTERIOSIS.

Thank you for your time, credit will be given, so please do provide me with your full name and state.


FAITH
www.bettatalk.com



HTH YOU understand!
Cary Gld!

[brewmaster15]

Great Post Cary! , I think it explains things thoroughly. One of my greatest frustrations with issues like this is when everyone thinks that what they see posted is the whole story. Its not, most of the story is unwritten....some can't be written because it hits too close to home, involves people that would prefer not be involved, or is just too complex to post. You've explained this one well IMO! Thank you.

My post to faith was very civil, and taken from a scientific point of view. My advice to anyone even remotely considering putting credence into hers or anyones views on diseases would be wise to check the sources of these individuals informations. and do the research yourselves. This hobby is filled with far too much hearsays and folklore --but the facts are out there too.

take care,
al

You tell 'em cary boy!!! >:( >:( Foock grammer.. I want content......

Got one Q for you cary....


We do not see Hexamita in our Discus and am not just talking about Me but Everyone with Discus. What We are seeing is Spironucleus and that is in writeing.

can you elaborate on this, As I told you long time ago, I did confirm several batches negative for hex on CBW, but the outbreak is sporadic in my tanks, maybe I mistook something else for hex, just want some clarification, now that you mentioned it... Feel free to shoot it in an email if you don't wanna post... but posting would be more informative for others as well... thanks...
:)

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

Cary
Good post. we some times disagree on things. Who doesn't.
But you have always been a straight shooter posting what you feel is the best advice.
I have a lot of respect for you and your knowledge of Discus.
ps I have never treated Discus for hex, because I have never had it , but never said any thing because of the thought of being ridiculed.
Dennis

ps I have never treated Discus for hex, because I have never had it , but never said any thing because of the thought of being ridiculed

It is easy to ridicule, but I don't think anyone here is worthy of ridiculing you dennis..... just post back that curipera pics, that should shut them up!!! ;D ;D Just curious, are you going by the symptoms for hex or necropsy.... I was under the same impression until I sent out a few of my culls for regular necropsy.... results came out positive for hex... ;) ;)

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
From my understanding... Hexamita and Spironucleus are both flagellated protozoans that under a scope would look very similar. I have even seen them used interchangeably. I believe that few , except experts could tell them apart. I know I can't! I have several papers that are by an expert on these protozoans--Disease of Aquatic Organisms, Vol 38, 1999 by Dr. Stephen A. Smith who works with angels and spironucleus vortens. From this line of thinking I think Cary could be very right that what is often thought of as hexamita is in fact spironucleus . I think the symptoms are similar and the two have just been merged and give a name in the hobby that everyone can remember.

some even merge the two parasites together... Hexamita spironucleus.... or confuse things even more with another closely related organism.. octomitis...

http://www.ksu.edu/parasitology/classes/625protozoa26.html


The last I heard the genera that these flagellated protozoans belonged to used to be called Hexamita and is now called Spironucleus what really complicates it is the fact that this group of parasites affect all land and water vertebrates and experts in each field don't always consult each other with the naming.

Luckily... they are all susceptible to similar treatments :)

-al


ps..Dennis, most fish propbably carry this organism.. but it is kept in check by a good health, and lack of stress.. If you haven't had to treat for it... It just shows how well you care for your fish. :)

Al any info on the treatment... does the same treatment work well for both?

[brewmaster15]

Hi Anand,

the literature indicates that all the protozoans in this genera respond to Metronidazole and di-metro.
There was also info on the use of heat in petri dishes to kill the organism, this was studied by that researcher..

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=4000;sta rt=30

This parasite is related to giardia, and should aslo respond to any medications that are used to treat it. (my opinion)

hth,
al

probably the biggest problem is resistence to the drug, by incomplete or inadequate treatments...

Interesting... was not aware of that!!!! Hmmmmm!!!! :)

[chuck]

Great Post Cary...
:thumbsup:
All the years I've been on the forums you were always up front and knowlegable, To a point where I remember thinking to myself "Sh#T Where does this guy learn all this discus stuff!!!" since back then very little people really shared anything Substantial " ;D
Keep up the good Work !!! ;D :thumbsup:
Chuck

[wildthing]

IMO the breeders that do not post! just don't give a dam or just don't Know Or they have something to hide. I also think it has a lot to do with the type of discus they sell to their clients. We See many pics of their discus Daily sold for Big $ that are nothing more than culls.
Cary Gld!




I couldn't agree more with this statement from Cary....except to add that maybe they are not breeders at all, just dealers with limited or no experience with Discus as a specialty fish who think they see a quick $$ or a subsidized vacation
Maybe folks should buy from folks who inhabit the forums, as these are the same folks that are supporting & helping when the fish from other places inevitably get sick.
These forums account for a large amount of the US Discus trade now and have become to an extent the new place for hyped up sales claims because of this. Fish deliberately misidentified to make them more appealing and wayyyyy more expensive is one of the biggest things I have noticed going on from some of the people that don;t post . If they don;t post they can;t be challenged, when they do post & do get challenged then it is right there for all to see.. the auction sites are the worst offendors with this as there is no 'chat back'

jmo

David

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Thanks Everyone!


And Thank You Brew for spironucleus Post!

Am off right now till 11pm. Brew runs the day shift and I work the nights LOL!

TakeCare,
Cary Gld!

[discus_nw]

Why am I not surprised my two links cannot be found ?? ;D ;D ;D Perhaps since that discussion was being carried on on 3 different forums, they were posted there, like JQ's or Jedd's, maybe it was on DIP. ;) Oh well...

I can say though that your expert on the subject stated he knew of no reports, which isn't the same as there are no reports. I posted two somwhere. :) He also made a supposition, which is just that - a suppose so.

David,

Why asked me the name of the people involved? You read who was feeding me the information. You'll need to ask him, I suppose. You mentioned the word "famous" in describing the university where the study is taking place. I never said famous. I said major university when the test was first mentioned on Jedd's. :)

Whirling disease was one of the diseases linked to the worms being studied in this test. But, it was only a scientist conducting the experiment. :) :) ;) ;)

==========================================

It's obvious that no one's mind had been changed, and a tankful of sick discus will not even convince a believer the cbw's "might" even be the cause, so why continue.

I find it interesting though, that members of the AKA have had the same exact problems discus people have had feeding cbw's. The Apistogramma breeders have had the same, and now the betta people have stated the same. Yet some continue to shake their heads saying no way.

I also find it interesting that these same people breeding apistogrammas, bettas, and killies have well established national organations that have been existance for along time, a feat that discus people have been unable to do. Why? As it was stated a couple years ago - egoes. Discus people are always right.

These other organazations are comprised of many smart, dedicated people and to dismiss their observations, as well as some of the members in the discus community, especially some of the big names is about as closed minded as anyone can get.

Mat,
If it bothers you that much, I will start another experiment, I will have two batches of fry in a couple of weeks... I will refrain feeding cbw to one batch and continue to the other.... I will even go through the trouble of using different equipments.... All this just for you..... I will constantly update you with issues and problems if any to you via personal communications.... nothings too much for a friend.... whatcha say.... :) :) just got the ALMOND LEAVES.... ;D ;D they are soaking for the first set of water changes...... ;) ;) I guess I can handle two sets of experiments at one time can't I!!!! ;D ;D

[Johnlee]

"It's obvious that no one's mind had been changed,
so why continue."

This is the best said yet.

[discus_nw]

Anand,

Thanks, my friend, but that will not be necessary. Too many bad stories from reputable people have been stated over many years of fish keeping to ever change my mind by some who have not had these problems yet. Actually, someone has said what I wanted them to say in this thread, and I hope other's have picked up on it.

At least people are admitting that cbw's "can" pass along a disease, which is better than they "can't" pass them along, and that was my arguement from the first cbw post 3 years ago.

Some are asking for the impossible by demanding hobbyist/breeders to supply scientific evidence of such diseases. How many aquarists have that capability n their fishroom? Even those of us that have microscopes and some science backgrounds can't really accomplish this. Random samplings of cbw's that come back clean are not evidence either, as you know. It only proves that a few worms didn't have any pathogens. That would be true of any species. I have looked at thousands of hemotology slides and never have seen a patient with malaria. So, from that I could say humans don't carry malaria. However, that random sampling really doesn't prove that. Same thing with cbw's.

Mat,
I will never wanna change anyones mind... If you are happy with what you are doing that is what counts..... but you should be convinced that is what matters... right ;)

[discus_nw]

and I am ;)

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Amen! THE END! :)

[chuck]

Hey Brew Can you find a SMILIEY that's beating a dead horse?? ;D ;D ;D

:banghead:

chuck

[Nate]

I've never fed CBW and don't have any working or scientific knowledge of them so I'm not going to jump in on the CBW thing but in reading this thread I did see some inaccuracies on other issues.


"whirling" is specificly a disease found in Salmon, again, cold water fish.
In discus the 'whirling ' behaviour is not " whirling " disease as found in salmon, which has been attributed to a virus caused by feeding salmon recycled dead salmon which died after spawning, kinda like mad cow disease .

I don't know if this was actual incorrect information or if it's an issue of wording but the end result is wrong. I don't have scientific proof but if I did care enough I could get the information from one of the game wardens or fish wildlife and parks department bioligists that I know. But, I don't care enough to go through the hassle and I'm sure that if I did the information would be ignored by some.

I know this as a Montana native and avid trout fisherman. Prior to joining the Marine Corps and leaving the state in 1999 Montana was having problems with whirling disease in native non-planted trout waters. These fish have had no contact with hatchery raised fish. So to say that it is a specific disease of hatchery raised Salmon is not correct. It's running the gammut of almost all of the types of fish that we call trout. True trout (browns), Char (Brookies), as well as those that are actually salmon but called trout by their common names.

It would stand to assume that if this disease could show up without the benefit of contact with hatchery raised salmon then it could show up in cbw ponds. Just my opinion and some experience though as I don't care enough to gather the required scientific evidence.

Nate

No..no...no.... Nate don't bring this back up.... Please... I beg you!!!! ;D

[CARY_GLdiscus]

http://gf.state.wy.us/services/education/diseases/index.asp


Is it talk then read or read then talk?


Defying gravity is a passion . . .
By Cody Beers
Defying gravity is a passion of humans. We're in awe of the act. Astronauts are our heroes, and airplane pilots are our idols. Maybe that's part of the reason why fishermen hold rainbow trout in such high regard. Rainbows are leapers.

Hurling themselves out of the water for anglers is one of the things rainbow trout do best. This leaping ability has brought them fame and fortune. But so has their availability to ordinary anglers such as you and me.

Today, rainbow trout are found almost everywhere in the West, including Wyoming, the Great Lakes and the East, Canada, cold streams throughout the South and cold stretches of rivers below dams in Texas, Oklahoma, Tennessee and Arkansas. More than other trout species, rainbows have proven they do well in a wide variety of habitats and climates. They are found in shallow and deep lakes, in small and large streams, in several of the Great Lakes and in some saltwater areas. All rainbows really need is cold, clean water, but they even survive in marginal conditions in some places.

Rainbows have a weakness, though. Rainbow trout are more susceptible to whirling disease than any other species of trout. In the 1990s, fisheries managers in Montana and Colorado discovered the disease's effects on their rainbow trout. What they've found has generated hysteria, paranoia and the largest effort to control a fisheries disease in modern history. Montana's and Colorado's situations are being watched by other states, including Wyoming, who more and more, are detecting the presence of the whirling disease parasite in their waters. Some states are merely watching and monitoring their waters. Other states, including Wyoming, are aggressively and attempting to keep the parasite from invading hatcheries and from spreading further into valuable wild-trout waters.

Montana's Madison River was the model of a wild trout fishery before 1991. But in the fall of 1991, fisheries workers documented declines in wild trout numbers in the Pine Butte section of the river. The decline was unusual, because it only affected wild rainbow trout. Two years later, workers noticed another decline in wild rainbow trout almost thirty miles downstream in the Varney study section. By the fall of 1994, rainbow trout numbers had declined almost ninety percent in both study sections from historic averages in the 1970s and 1980s. Brown trout numbers were stable in this same period.

In December 1994, Montana fisheries workers collected young-of-the-year and yearling rainbow and brown trout from the Madison River from Quake Lake to Ennis Lake. The fish were tested for diseases, including whirling disease. A few weeks passed, and the confirmation came - some of the young trout were positive for whirling disease (Myxobolus cerebralis) spores. Samples taken in the fifty-five-mile reach of the river showed spores in up to seventy-five percent of the young fish that were examined. This was the first time whirling disease had been documented in Montana.

In 1995, an electrofishing survey of the Pine Butte and Snoball study sections of the Madison River documented clinical signs of whirling disease in Montana's wild rainbow trout. Clinical signs of the disease, such as head and body deformities, black tails and whirling behavior, were noted in up to fifty percent of the young-of-the-year rainbow trout. Young brown trout showed only light infections while rainbow trout infections were more severe.

Since 1994, the Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks has surveyed for the parasite in state waters through electrofishing, gill nets, fish traps and angling. Nearly 30,000 fish from more than 350 waters, including twenty-two hatcheries and some private ponds, have been tested for the presence of the whirling disease parasite.

To date, the parasite has been found in 73 Montana waters in 10 of 22 major river drainages. Montana's nine state, three federal, and 10 private hatcheries are not infected with whirling disease, nor have they ever been.

And although whirling disease poses no threat to humans who eat infected fish, the disease has affected Montana's income from trout fishing, which brings in about $250 million a year to the state.

Colorado first discovered whirling disease in 1988. At that time, Colorado Division of Wildlife scientists didn't believe the parasite was devastating, and they believed it could be controlled.

In 1993, Colorado fisheries workers found that young-of-the-year age classes of rainbow trout were missing from sections of the upper Colorado River. The cause: whirling disease. Since then, whirling disease has been found in parts of 14 of 15 major river drainages in the state. Losses of young fish have been documented in sections of the Colorado, South Platte, Poudre, Gunnison and Rio Grande rivers. Up to 300 of Colorado's 7,000 miles of streams may show population effects from the parasite.

Testing also revealed that whirling disease had infected eight of ColoradoÕs 11 fish hatcheries. Prior to the findings, these hatcheries were producing more than 4.5 million catchable rainbow trout each year, and two million of these were being stocked on Colorado's West Slope.

Upon finding the disease, Colorado shut down rainbow production at some of these facilities and cut back production at others.

In 1994, before whirling disease was recognized as a threat to wild trout by Colorado, 125 rivers and streams were stocked with trout exposed to the parasite. By 1997, that number was reduced to portions of the Arkansas, Cache la Poudre, Colorado, East, Gunnison and South Platte rivers.

In 1996, Colorado adopted a new stocking policy that only allows trout testing negative for whirling disease to be stocked in waters that test negative for the disease. As a result, out of three million catchable rainbows produced in hatcheries last year, only 200,000 whirling disease-negative trout were stocked in West Slope waters. Whirling disease-exposed fish were stocked in eastern Colorado, however, where the parasite is already found.

Cuts in stocking has forced Colorado to reduce angler limits. The lower limits apply to waters west of the Continental Divide where the daily limit is two trout from streams and four trout in reservoirs and lakes. Colorado also added special catch-and-release regulations for new cutthroat waters on the West Slope and Rio Grande drainage.

Colorado is spending millions on its war on whirling disease, too. Colorado's legislature approved $10 million for the Division of Wildlife to spend on the first phase of its hatchery cleanup project, and the wildlife agency may seek up to another $10 million to fight the disease. Colorado is spending its money on six hatcheries that have the potential to be rid of the parasite— Mount Shavano, Finger Rock, Roaring Judy, Rifle Falls, Bellvue and Durango. The agency is focusing on cleanup of hatcheries that have secure ground water sources; hatcheries that rely totally on surface water may not be rehabilitated.

The effort is paying off, too. One Colorado hatchery, Mt. Ouray, has been certified negative for whirling disease through DNA testing, and two more (Bellvue and Durango) have initially tested negative for the disease. The success at Mt. Ouray is encouraging in that the parasite was first found there in 1986.

Colorado scientists are unsure if the hatchery improvements will totally purge the parasite, but they believe the improvements will eliminate the chances of other diseases entering the hatcheries. If the hatchery improvements proceed on schedule and testing remains negative for whirling disease, these hatcheries could be producing 1.9 million whirling disease-negative, catchable trout every year by 2002.

There is also evidence that suggests whirling disease may be involved in population declines in Idaho's Big Lost River and Utah's Beaver River. Other rivers in Idaho, Utah, Wyoming and other states, including New York, have the parasite, but they have not experienced declines in fish populations.

Idaho has had some problems with the parasite in at least three of its hatcheries.

[Johnlee]

Look's like a little pot stirring from WA to me.

A quote from DAAH.
"Chad,
are those pictures of the outdoor holding ponds from Dan's place?"

Nate



johnlee