Wilds and environmental dangers.

[stygian7]

I have to say that I am somewhat alarmed with the high interest in colecting wilds. I realize that it is going to happen whether I like it or not, but consider the dangers associated with raising demand for wilds.

The countries which are home to discus are mostly periphery or semi-periphery countries at best. Generally, in these countries laws regulating the colection of wild animals are minimal or unenforceable as a matter of practicality, corruption, and lack of funding. Furthermore, if we as a hobby raise the demand for wild fish, someone is going to supply them, regardless of their population state.

I have read articles already about the scarcity of discus in the wild compared to their populations 50 years ago; this alarms me. Are we going to drive discus into endangerment or worse, extinction? If you look at population statistics, there becomes a critical point at which, although there are still living wilds out there, the species is doomed for extinction-the birth rate just can't match the death rate. Irresponsible fishing practices have demonstrated their dangers time and time again, yet we don't seem to learn. Also, don't forget that ecological systems are highly complex and beyond our perception. Look at the worlds reefs, which have been desimated by careless fishing and collection practices among other human activities.

I understand the allure to wilds, I've purchased a few in the past myself. However, in retrospect, I wish I hadn't-they were picky eaters and just didn't seem happy anyway. Next time you think about purchasing a wild discus, consider the necessity and if its worth its environmental impact.

[Paulio]

Two words: Project Piaba!


http://www.finarama.com/tba/projectpiaba/

http://www.greaterdetroitaquariumsociety.com/new_page_25.htm

http://www.ornamental-fish-int.org/piaba.htm

There are many more sites. Just Google it.

Paul

[stygian7]

I applaud this organization, but it demonstrates my point exactly. We still don't understand our current and potential impact.
This is a quote from one of the sites Paulio listed: http://www.greaterdetroitaquariumsociety.com/new_page_25.htm

"Significant progress has been made during this time, but much more baseline data are required before firm resource management strategies can be formulated. The next phase of Project Piaba (2000 - 2003) aims to generate data relating to a wide range of issues, from population of species diversity, to the function and structure of the ecosystem, and to develop measures that will help improve the livelihood of the riverine people. The ultimate goal is to promote a viable fishery at commercially and ecologically sustainable levels, and to help reduce environmentally destructive land use and rural to urban migration in the Rio Negro basin.
Prepared by:
Dr. Ning Labbish Chao
Universidade do Amazonas
Manaus, Brazil"

-Kevin McPherson

[Paulio]

How about some of the folks that have been there and have first hand knowledge getting in on this one?



Paul

[O]

"Adventures with discus" paints a very good picture of the discus environment and its exploitation. And it is a very sad picture. the book was written in the late 80's. I'm sure the situation has gotten worse over the last 15 or so years. And I don't mean just taking discus out of the natural envirnment. I mean the general exploitation of the jungle and versious polution, and erosition issues that follow.

You can look at the question raised from two different sides. First, by taking discus out of their environment we may end up saving the species from extinction. Which has been done with many animal species. Second position one might take is that we have to preserve the natural environment, which is extremely difficult to do in a developing country.

I'm more concerned with the weaker & less robust domestic discus straines that have been created.

Just my two cents.

O.

[Lauro Baldini]

Just a link (the site can be viewed in English):

http://www.renctas.org.br/index.html

Cheers,

LAuro.

[John_Nicholson]

I find this type of post to be idiotic. The information that this is based on is bogus. Catching wild discus for the hobby is not the problem. There are probably some valid enviromental concerns, but catching discus is not the problem.

-john

[Lauro Baldini]

I disagree. Catching wild discus may not be "the" problem, but certainly it is a problem. As for bogus information, I don't think Project Piaba is based on false or innacurate information. If so, they wouldn't have the respect they have (not only in South America).

Cheers,

Lauro.

[brewmaster15]

I personally believe that this is issue of wilds, their collection and native economies/ecology is very complex.

I think a careful re-reading of project Piaba is necessary here...

http://www.ornamental-fish-int.org/piaba.htm

I believe it is very possible to sustainably collect wilds, but in order for that to be the case, The habitat for the wilds needs to be in place and healthy so that they can florish. Case in point... Great lakes fishies in the US.. They were once important fisheries... look at them now. Pollution,over fishing, and invasive species (zebra mussles and round Gobies-TFH article) have severly impaired it.

Discus and other wild fish will not survive collection pressures unless habitat is preserved. Its as simple as that. As the habitat degrades, populations will drop., if the collection pressure continues at the same rate or increases as habitat decreases'degrades...The result will be very bad.

--al

[John_Nicholson]

Al what you are saying if not the same thing that the young lady is saying. I like you but you either support animal rights activist of you don't. It is black and white.

-john

[brewmaster15]

John,
I'm sorry but you got me real confused here. I don't see animal rights activisim and conservation of natural resources as The same thing.

I was educated as a wild life biologist John, and have spent alot of time studying Ecosystems....

http://www.boghopper.freeservers.com

I am a strong believer in the necessity of human intervention in the management of natural resources. Its the only way to ensure we don't do irreversible harm to a system by not understanding what it takes to keep them productive..


Every natural population has certain needs such as minimum population densities, and an adequate food chain, as well as optimum breeding conditions.

The key to protecting any tropical species is to find ways to allow the native human populations to use their resources sustainably. If that isn't accomplished, they will turn to ways of providing for their familys that harm the ecosystems.


I don't see how I am supporting animal rights advocates. What I said was not in agreeement with whats was posted by others here. It wasn't meant to be because I don't believe its an issue of collecting wilds as I believe that can be done, and to the economic and ecologic benefit of that area.

what I don't believe is that you can clear cut and burn the land along the rivers and expect discus to continually thrive while they are still collected in large numbers.

Just for the record I currently own 25 adult wilds and caring for an additional 17 from francisco. I have an interest in obtaining many more wild specimens.

whats really got me confused here is You know I have a freezer full of deer meat John, and I enjoy fishing for trout. I've openly posted experiments on trimming fish fins that would outrage activists. Heck I've even asked you for wild game recipes and an feed deer to my discus. I've even locked posts when people attacked members here because they cull.

Someone here has posted an opinion that they believe collecting of wilds is wrong and is something to be concerned about. I disagreed as did you, I just gave my reasons for why, so I don't understand your post. I do encourage the discussion on boths sides here because this is a very serious and relevent issue that affects any hobbyist interested in wild fish from tropical origins. Better to discuss it in the open and if possible set the facts out so it doesn't become a PITA issue.

Should I not allow that persons opinion on this site because I don't agree with it. I get criticisized enough for moderating this board... I might as well put a gun to my head if I do that.

-al

[wall_o_fish]

Well-said, Al.

I don't wanna kill the goose to get all the golden eggs at once. (reference to Jack and the Beanstalk)

scott

[Lauro Baldini]

Al, You said everything that has to be said!

[Sketchy]

"I am a strong believer in the necessity of human intervention in the management of natural resources. Its the only way to ensure we don't do irreversible harm to a system by not understanding what it takes to keep them productive"

BRAVO !!!

...get caught collecting and keeping wild (native) fish in almost any state here and see what happens. The DNR will be all over you like flies on honey. Why should it be any different in the Brazilian Amazon? Brazil is an old country, but it is also a very young country, experiencing some of the same growing pains that the United States felt when Americans fulfilled their "manifest destiny". Hopefully the Brazilians will learn from the mistakes here and do better. Collecting wild animals is only one of the environmental threats to the region. There are many more that operate on a bigger scale and whose results are capable of causing devastation much more quickly.

[jim_shedden]

I have seen it work both ways. I have seen gov't intervention in the black bear populations in Ontario go bezerk. It was decided to end the spring bear hunt in northern Ontario because of the effect of so many homeless (orphaned) cubs. I happen to have agreed with this move at the time. After a couple of years the populations of black bears has gotten out of control, even though the gov't will not admit it yet. I have black bears in my backyard constantly. It is to the point that we now have a neibourhood watch for bears. It is a real concern for parents with young kids. On the other hand take a look at Lake Erie. This is one of the great Lakes shared by Canada and the USA. At one time this lake was virtually dead because of pollution..........now it has become one of the best sportfishing fisheries in North America. Al.............I just finished doing a fishing show down there and I was amazed at how the lake has turned around. This has happened because of "intelligent" decisions that were made between two countries regulating the polution that enters the lake thereby cleaning it up. It is amazing how lakes and the natural environment can come back when allowed. Now the fish in the lake have another battle and that is with cormorants. These birds are eating a vast percentage of the fingerling bass in the lake. Cormorants were not native (I do not beleive) to the area until they showed up a couple of years ago and now they are everywhere.
I disagree with John that the issue is black and white but I also understand his point. There are so many political hidden agenda's going on (just like the spring bear hunt)that we do not really know who to trust or how to trust. I just hope that in the area of Amazona decisions are based on sound information and not decided upon by some tree hugger or some industrialist ceo.

[mikeos]

If the demand for wild fish diminishes and the industries based upon them fail, the locals have NO interest in their ( the fishes) environment, and no means of support. They inevitably turn to other work ( obviously) and in this part of the world that means logging and mining. ( as well as fishing for food rather than income) This is far more harmfull to the aquatic environment than fishing.

There is NO simplistic solution, wild animals have to offer more by their continued existance than by their extinction if they are to survive. In this case that means education and the establishment of sustainable farming as well as encouraging environmental protection from all sectors of the economy. IMO a ban on wild fish will lead to more rapid declline than an eccologicaly sound, managed solution.

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Many of these issues are better said than done. If you ever lived in a third world country you'll see why corruption is prevalent. Natives don't have any other way to feed their children. It's purely economics and when you see your own kids starving it's easy to look the other way. To make what you can now and not see the future.
JMHO
Dan